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Question about "The Masquerade Ball" Win condition.

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I agree about the poor wording.

Some concepts seem to have been badly thought out, and we are now entangled in complicated rulings (typically the movement "pool" notion, as well as the numerous "non movement" movements such as Oath of Honor, create a useless mess IMO).

Light Bright likes this

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Play it the way your group thinks is the most enjoyable.  Easy.

Easy, of course.

But some people like to play along the rules, which is more challenging.

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What an inspiring debate!  

 

I agree with rfisha.  Given that I'm overlord and need heroes to play, who just got demolished and demoralized with an 0 for 4 outcome, I would side with the rules and let them win, coming up with a story like "Lord T was out fighting The Joker and The Penguin instead of at his party....who knew?"

 

;)

Edited by KtuluCaller

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Play it the way your group thinks is the most enjoyable.  Easy.

Easy, of course.

But some people like to play along the rules, which is more challenging.

 

 

Ahhhh... confused, but yeah, I suppose more challenging for the heroes.  

As this quest favors the OL, I can see why it is more enjoyable to house rule it.  It doesn't change the mechanics of the game in any way or add any complexity - it's trivial.  If the group agrees I don't really see one way or another how it has a major impact on challenge.  It really depends on your playing group, but RAW is best if you cannot decide.

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Hey guys,

 

Sorry about the miscellaneous confusion on this issue. I understand that I responded to the question quite some time ago, but it unfortunately slipped through the cracks when it came time to update the FAQ. Twice, actually :unsure: . Rest assured, when it comes time to update the FAQ once more, many alarms will resound in reminder, and this issue will most definitely be fixed, for realsies this time.

 

Justin

rfisha, jadedbacon and Robin13 like this

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Thanks for chiming in Justin.

I am nevertheless wondering how the original design did not notice the problem initially.

 

Because you can never test anything completely.  The RAW will never be perfect, nor the design.  To test to the level of perfection will make the game too expensive due to costs in play testing.

 

It's just like software - there will always be bugs.  FFG do a fantastic job IMO for a game with so many combinations of events occuring to get the game to level it is at.

jadedbacon likes this

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This turned into such an unnecessary debate.

 

If you *complete* (sarcasm intended) 0 out of 4 objectives, I think it's reasonable to suggest that your opponent has won this encounter.

 

- Which happens to not even be a deciding factor, in whether or not Encounter 2 is won. There is still a chance, depending on the roll of the dice.

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Well, the advantage earned in encounter 2 by winning encounter 1 for the overlord is extremely difficult to surmount as the heroes. Correct monster choice by the overlord and proper placement along with a few overlord cards can make it virtually impossible.

 

And you are missing the point with objectives: According to the victory condition, the only objective at all, rules as written, is to win the die roll at the end. Saving guests makes that easier and more probable, but that isn't the objective.

 

Feel free to house rule it any way you like.

 

Thank you for adding this to the FAQ though when you get the chance Justin, it will be much appreciated.

 

General rule for playing any board game or game with a ruleset: play by Rules As Written. If there is ever any confusion, play by the literal text of the game. All players are required to play by the same ruleset and need to know how it works ahead of time to make decisions: if you are going to houserule something, discuss it and agree before the game begins. Interpretations of implications can get you to some very weird places, and players will often not agree. The most fair thing to do is to stick to the RAW.

Edited by Whitewing

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The blasphemous argument continues...

 

I think I found the perfect Quest for you to utilize your RAW.

 

The Desecrated Tomb: (Encounter 1)

Victory Conditions:

If all the heroes move off of the map through the Entrance, the Heroes win.

 

It states specifically that they must find the Discarded Map in the Special Rules in order to move off of the map, but in the Victory Conditions this isn't anywhere to be found. By your logic, this encounter can be ended on the first turn of the Heroes, since they begin on the Entrance Tile, all they have to do is move off of the map through the Entrance.

 

By "RAW", it is a guaranteed victory for the Heroes if they leave the map during turn 1.

 

Do you disagree by this, or will you now play Devil's Advocate by discerning an implication.

 

Now in the 2nd Encounter of The Desecrated Tomb, by RAW, it says the Heroes must move off the map through the Entrance while carrying the Dawnblade.

-----------------

 

In every encounter and quest, there are victory conditions for both the heroes and the Overlord, that trigger, as soon as one or the other fulfills what is written.

 

By your logic, the only way that the Overlord can win Encounter 1 in Masquerade Ball, is if the Heroes do not roll a dice equal to or less than the guests they may or may not have rescued. By your logic, there is no immediate victory condition for the Overlord on this encounter - and it is the only encounter in the game, that does not have an immediate victory condition for one of the two parties.

 

----------------

 

I do not mean to insult you, but you literally sound like my mother. Her arguments generally are as illogical and as flawed as this one, and she is "correct" because she "says so".

Edited by Tasressurect
skidlz likes this

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The blasphemous argument continues...

 

I think I found the perfect Quest for you to utilize your RAW.

 

The Desecrated Tomb: (Encounter 1)

Victory Conditions:

If all the heroes move off of the map through the Entrance, the Heroes win.

 

It states specifically that they must find the Discarded Map in the Special Rules in order to move off of the map, but in the Victory Conditions this isn't anywhere to be found. By your logic, this encounter can be ended on the first turn of the Heroes, since they begin on the Entrance Tile, all they have to do is move off of the map through the Entrance.

 

By "RAW", it is a guaranteed victory for the Heroes if they leave the map during turn 1.

 

Do you disagree by this, or will you now play Devil's Advocate by discerning an implication.

 

Now in the 2nd Encounter of The Desecrated Tomb, by RAW, it says the Heroes must move off the map through the Entrance while carrying the Dawnblade.

-----------------

 

In every encounter and quest, there are victory conditions for both the heroes and the Overlord, that trigger, as soon as one or the other fulfills what is written.

 

By your logic, the only way that the Overlord can win Encounter 1 in Masquerade Ball, is if the Heroes do not roll a dice equal to or less than the guests they may or may not have rescued. By your logic, there is no immediate victory condition for the Overlord on this encounter - and it is the only encounter in the game, that does not have an immediate victory condition for one of the two parties.

 

----------------

 

I do not mean to insult you, but you literally sound like my mother. Her arguments generally are as illogical and as flawed as this one, and she is "correct" because she "says so".

 

No, you are being completely ridiculous. The victory condition is moving off the map. However, it specifically and very clearly states they have to do something else in particular before being allowed to do so. Problem solved. In the Masquerade ball, it never, and I mean NEVER, says anywhere that they must rescue at least 1 guest to make the roll. That's where you are losing it. You are inferring that based on a chain of logic that is not clearly spelled out or written. You are saying because it makes sense to you, that this must be the way to play it. But that is not what rules as written means. It means, you play the rules as they are written, and that's all. In the Desecrated Tomb, it specifically states you have a certain objective to complete before you are allowed to move off the map, and then the victory condition is having moved off the map. In the Masquerade ball, the victory condition is winning the die roll, but there aren't any conditions levied upon being allowed to make that roll.

 

And yes, that is the way the overlord wins in the first encounter of masquerade ball. And I have no idea what you are trying to say by "instantaneous win condition". It's meaningless gibberish. He wins the instant the die roll fails to be less than or equal to the guests rescued, and loses the instant the die roll succeeds. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

Your analogies and examples are incongruous.

Edited by Whitewing
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Tasressurect is simply trying to explain that rules are useless and that subjective, authoritarian interpretation of a self proclaimed "pope" is better than following the rules.

If those who try to play the RAW as written remind him of his mother, it simply shows that he must still recover from his oedipian complex and stop posturing as a paternalist enlightened dictator. He must back off being daddy for his mom.

(pseudo psychanalytic sarcasm here).

Whitewing likes this

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You need to stop what you are doing, take a step back, and review your material from a different point of view. You have no basis for an argument, yet you believe that you do. Shake the mentality from your head, and pay attention to what is being said.

 

In Desecrated Tomb:

 

The Victory Condition RAW is;

If the Heroes move off the map through the Entrance, they win the encounter.

 

Special Rules RAW is; If a Hero searches and finds the Discarded Map, they may now move off the map through the Entrance.

 

Nowhere in the Victory Condition does it state that they require the Discarded Map to move off of the map, through the entrance. This is stated specifically in the "Special Rules."

 

Back to The Masquerade Ball:

 

The Victory Condition RAW is;

If all monsters are defeated, or the last guest leaves the map for any reason the encounter ends. Any guest remaining is considered to be *rescued* by the Heroes. The Heroes roll dice to determine if Lord Theodir is among the guests they have *rescued*. If they roll dice equal to or lower than the guests they *successfully rescued*, then the Heroes manage to save Lord Theodir.

 

The Special Rules RAW is;

Guests: 1/2 of the Guests are Cultists (Monsters), and the other 1/2 are Noble Guests (One of which, is Lord Theodir)

 

Unmasking a Guest: If a Guest is a Red Objective Token, they are Cultists. If a Guest is a Blue Objective Token, they are

Noble Guests.

 

Escorting Guests: Escorted Guests are placed under the Hero who unmasked them.

...

A Hero may *rescue* an escorted Guest, by moving off the map through the Entrance.

...

Guests *rescued* by the Heroes are placed by the Hero play area.

...

------------

 

If there is any discrepancy on how to *rescue* a Guest, please look above, I have pin-pointed the locations in which they are written, between asterisks. Seriously, how many times did you look over what is clearly written, and refuse to adhere to the simplicity behind it? Why is this being questioned? Because it is ridiculous. For someone who seems to know and understand the written English language, your comprehension is not all there - and these two GENERALLY go hand-in-hand.

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In my most previous post, I have taken Whitewing's logic and used it in a different scenario.

 

I believe that we can all assume that it is unreasonable for the Heroes to move off of the map in their first turn, but according to his logic, as written in the Quest Guide, it's perfectly legitimate.

 

How is that any different from not rescuing any guests, and rolling to see whether or not you rescued a guest?

 

Like...are you all trolling here?

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Ugh, this is absolutely ridiculous, I'm not going to get through to you, I've stated my argument and you insist in logical fallacy after logical fallacy and you are going out of your way to be offensive several posts in a row. I'm not wasting any more of my time. You're wrong, sorry, but I'm done here.

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Yes it seems like we are both arguing to a brick wall. I guess, so no more offensive gestures are implied, this discussion is over.

Edited by Tasressurect

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Wow - a series of circumstances to lead to this . If only one dice roll had been a shield !

 

Anyway I read it that under The Guests section it says the blue tokens are the noble guests - one of whom IS Lord Theodir. Therefore if one side be it the overlord or the heroes has all 4 blue tokens and therefore has all the nobles then they have Lord Theodir and no further rolling is then required to find out. The victory does also say you have to roll against guests successfully rescued so if you were not successful in recuing any nobles then you dont get to win.

 

Unfortunately the part 2 really needs the heros to win this one as for me it only works if Eliza has to roll to try and open all the doors. I would just play part 2 myself which can be really close if Eliza gets a few door delays and is then really fun.

Edited by Crusaderlord

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Tasressurect, are you my brother?  I think you described my mother. 

 

"brother, mother, or any other sucker!"  

 

First one to "name that movie" gets one shield.

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Tasressurect, are you my brother?  I think you described my mother. 

 

"brother, mother, or any other sucker!"  

 

First one to "name that movie" gets one shield.

 

 

I hpin you are referring to one of my favorites Lock, Stock & 2 Smokin Barrels

KtuluCaller likes this

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