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r2trooper

Force user advancement thoughts

126 posts in this topic

 

Sorry, the quotes got all messed up.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean here. Force rating 1. Has Move Basic Power. Requires one Light pip. Has Strength upgrade four. To lift a silhouette 4 will only take one more light pip. I don't see how that is not in line with the CRB. Now last adventure he did pull a gun using move, and he should not have, as he did not have that upgrade yet, but he does now. With that upgrade and two Range upgrades, he can pull a blaster from someone from long range on two light pips. At short range he can hurl a silhouette 4 into someone doing 40 points of damage will take two force pips, and a Discipline Check (1Y, 1G) vs ranged defense. 

He does not have the 4 Strength upgrades yet, only 1, but still it doesn't matter if it is one or four upgrades.  

I fail to see how Force rating 1 is limited. Yes, most things require  2 light pips, 3 in 12 chance. Not great, but doable. 

He has a 3 in 12 chance to knock over an AT-AT at short range. I don't really see that as limiting.

 

I think a player with a single Force die is limited. I'll explain:

30 Base

10 Upgrade Strength

5 Upgrade Range

5 Control

That's 50 XP to be able to move a Silhouette 1 object at Short range and throw it for 10 damage. With only a 25% success rate if he doesn't use dark side pips. The odds go up to 33% (I think?) when using dark side pips too. Still not great, and comes at whatever cost you as a GM deem appropriate.

And then there's the Discipline check. I didn't count the XP you'd put into Discipline, but at that point it's not a big check so it's probably not a big deal.

 

For some perspective: That same investment of 50XP for a bounty hunter could get the first four ranks of Ranged Heavy; making him a pretty good shot. He's succeeding regularly at that point and can probably do so up to Long range. I don't want to bother with all the possibilities about characteristics, weapons, attachments, mods, etc. Point here is that non-force users investing this amount of XP into a single skill can potentially deal more damage and do so more consistantly than a FSE with Move. That's what I mean by limited. A Force-user can kick some ass, but any character who invests in a single thing will be able to kick ass at that thing. The difference I see as limiting is that the FSE will succeed less often.

 

Now here's another thought:

Your player is holding people up and turning them around to not face the party? To me that is fine manipulation and should required that 15XP upgrade at the bottom of the tree. It also is going to require an increasingly difficult Discipline check each round to hold the NPC up. Maybe the NPC makes an opposed check too.

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I like the idea about turning him to be fine manipulation. I will go with that.

RAW, there is nothing about opposed checks when it come to lifting people (objects)To use move does not require a discipline check unless I use it as a ranged weapon. Just like taking a gun from someone's hand, if they have the upgrade and can make the points, they have it. RAW. For people that want to bring up house rules for it, they can, but I don't want to house rule crap until I fully understand the system. Look at Empire, Vader grabs that gun Han no problem.

A level one force user can still toss a silhouette 4 short range for 40 damage. Granted his discipline check will suck...

So thanks for the great input, I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this and forget the other systems.

You must unlearn what you have learned.

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I could see lifting someone up count as an attack.  You are essentially disabling them if they are a melee.  If they're ranged, not so much, but still.

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Per the rules, one force point to activate Move, one force point activate move upgrade. 2 pips, and they lift 'em up. Now granted, they have a 3 in 12 chance. Not great odds.

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On the face of it, the lack of opposed checks with Force powers looks like it will become a problem. Sure, the success rate for rolling light side pips is kind of low, but the entire rest of the system works with difficulty and opposed checks, then you have these Force powers that allow for detection, the causing of Strain, disarming, and moving without anything but Force dice being rolled.

 

If yanking weapons out of people's hands were so easy, shouldn't we see more of that? I kind of envision a fight between a Jedi and a Sith where first one yanks a lightsaber out of the other's hand, then the other yanks it back and no one takes a swing... -_-

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It's pretty much WAY too late for this, but I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to use force powers as a skill system.  Base it off an attribute, but rather than being able to buy ranks,  you only get skill ranks like the current system gets force dice.  Then just set difficulties for things and have at it.  Upgrade difficulty for this, increase difficulty for that, spend triumph on this, etc.  At most, with the current system a player could have 3 yellow, so I think it would have worked.

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On the face of it, the lack of opposed checks with Force powers looks like it will become a problem.

 

I have no actual idea of course, but I'm willing to bet that kind of thing is coming in F&D.  Maybe you'll be able to allocate dice to resisting, or you'll get a dice pool based on your Force Rating.  At least, I hope such a mechanic is introduced...

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Here's an interesting thought I had for this character.

 

Dangle a lightsaber in his "path". Start dropping some hints that there's one out there for the taking. See if you can't get his eyes to light up. If he takes the bait, send him on a wild bantha chase of epic adventure. Don't just tease him, drop enough hints that he's going to get the prize, but you're going to make him work for it.

 

Lightsabers are pretty powerful in this game, but so is the move power, and there's no subtlety with the lightsaber. He may stick to his current shtick, but what Force Sensitive Star Wars fan can resist the glow stick?

 

Pin that idea and think on it.

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From my point of view hurling a silhouette 4 object at short range is suicide. A silhouette 4 object is as big as a light freighter ! If you hurl it at short range you will probably get crushed by it or hit by debris. If your are inside a building it will probably make it fall on your head. Considering the damage it will kill you.

I personally let may players go with such "unbalanced build" (everything in strength and nothing else, go for it) so then can do stupid actions, die from it and then think about being more reasonable.

 

R2Builder, if you have a problem with a player doing very stupid thing don't hesitate to kill his character in the process. In a very stupid and humiliating way (still reasonably logical). It probably won't be difficult (judging from what you wrote about your player), the other players will find this fun and your boring player will learn to think before acting.

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I like the idea about turning him to be fine manipulation. I will go with that.

RAW, there is nothing about opposed checks when it come to lifting people (objects)To use move does not require a discipline check unless I use it as a ranged weapon. Just like taking a gun from someone's hand, if they have the upgrade and can make the points, they have it. RAW. For people that want to bring up house rules for it, they can, but I don't want to house rule crap until I fully understand the system. Look at Empire, Vader grabs that gun Han no problem.

A level one force user can still toss a silhouette 4 short range for 40 damage. Granted his discipline check will suck...

So thanks for the great input, I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this and forget the other systems.

You must unlearn what you have learned.

There is nothing RAW about opposed checks in the CRB, but Sam Stewart made mention of it in one of the Order 66 podcasts. Specifically, they were talking about pulling a gun out of an NPC's hand and reached a couple conclusions.

- You cannot pull the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand. Talent of not, it doesn't matter. A player should know better than to even ask this. 

- The person having his gun pulled away could potentially make an opposed check using Brawn or Agility (a fair case was made for both)

 

Here's the quick thought about grabbing a gun with the Force: If you had a BBEG Force user grab your PC's gun, is the PC just stuck with fists and his swinging cock at that point? Or are you going to let him attempt to hang on to it?

 

As for checks to lift and hold in the air using Move: The CRB does address this. I don't have the page in front of me, but it is in a side box just next to the Move write-up says something along the lines of checks to keep the object (or person) lifted.

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I don't know about how to go about making an opposed check for lifting individuals, but in regards to pulling it from somebody's grasp - I'd consider it an opposed Discipline vs. Brawn check if you wanted to put it as a check. I mean, the book is pretty vague on the control upgrade's specific function - does it mean you can automatically yank out weapons or bolted down fixtures at will, or does it just mean that now you have the opportunity to do it now? I mean going RAW, it seems to indicate the former, but if you wanted to instate a check, I'd consider Discipline vs Brawn to make the most sense.

 

With regards to holding things/people in the air, the rules only give recommendations, and even then, that's just for holding them in the air for prolonged periods of time (more than several minutes out of combat, more than a round in combat). And the suggestions were a secondary check, committing a force die, suffering strain (strain suffered increases to the silhouette size and is taken every round the object is held up - in an encounter).

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I have to say I'm surprised the "Imperial entanglements" argument hasn't been more strongly emphasised on this thread.  I've breezed through but only ...  little red robot man 2P51 seems to have brought it up.  If a Force User in a rebellion era campaign used their powers as often, as openly and as dramatically as this player seems to do they should draw Imperial attention very quickly.

That means you can expect Inquisitors, Imperial Hands and Bounty Hunters (there's supposedly a brotherhood who specialise in Force Sensitives), not to mention the Man In Black, himself.

 

If the FS Exile is non-human, they'll likely be killed.  If they're human, they may only be imprisoned, but as I understand it, there they'll be drugged, tortured and face attempted indoctrination, repeatedly, until they have no will and no desires - until they are nothing but an expendable weapon for uncaring masters to use.

This could be my GM overselling it in order to keep 'em rare (he succeeded), but I've always been leery of the Force during the rebellion.

 

Heck, any number of dangerous people may want a "pet Jedi" chained up, just in case they need one.

Edited by Col. Orange
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It's pretty much WAY too late for this, but I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to use force powers as a skill system.  Base it off an attribute, but rather than being able to buy ranks,  you only get skill ranks like the current system gets force dice.  Then just set difficulties for things and have at it.  Upgrade difficulty for this, increase difficulty for that, spend triumph on this, etc.  At most, with the current system a player could have 3 yellow, so I think it would have worked.

This sounds about right.

 

Use the Force skill: cannot take ranks unless you have Force Sensitivity (purchase one of the Force specializations like the Exile or Emergent), ranks capped by your Force rating. Works off of Willpower as the associated stat.

 

May have been a better idea.

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It's pretty much WAY too late for this, but I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to use force powers as a skill system.  Base it off an attribute, but rather than being able to buy ranks,  you only get skill ranks like the current system gets force dice.  Then just set difficulties for things and have at it.  Upgrade difficulty for this, increase difficulty for that, spend triumph on this, etc.  At most, with the current system a player could have 3 yellow, so I think it would have worked.

This sounds about right.

 

Use the Force skill: cannot take ranks unless you have Force Sensitivity (purchase one of the Force specializations like the Exile or Emergent), ranks capped by your Force rating. Works off of Willpower as the associated stat.

 

May have been a better idea.

 

I think he means -

Skill: Sense

Skill: Move

Skill: Influence

Skill: Enhance

Skill: The other one (Omen?  Prophesy? (Something that isn't a film about Christian mythology)?)

 

In the current system, I like that untrained Force Sensitives can't rely on their powers (low probabilites even into Force Rating 3), but it is very difficult to compare them with regular, blaster-slinging folk.

 

I was going to say it's kind of balanced by their effects being greater than mundane chaps while their chance of success is less, but I'm not so sure.

Use Move to disarm someone?  You can do the same with a blaster (Triumph or 3 Advantages) and you hurt them in the process.

Chuck something big at them?  Weapons, backed by success-based damaged can usually do more.

Throw them off a building?  GM uses a dark side point, they grab the edge (or land on a balcony).

Edited by Col. Orange
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Thanks everyone for all the insight. :)

I was reading this from the very beginning, and when I mentioned I was thinking of making the force user get a teacher to advance to force rating 3, it seemed like all hell broke loose. I know it didn't, I'm exaggerating a lot here. Then it kind of turned into a slew of home brew mechanics and house rules that actually make it harder for the Force user to use his powers. (Some from people crying foul on making him find (read GM provides) a teacher.)

I am now on the bad wagon that the force is fine how it is. I don't think the developers broke it, or designed it poorly. Could it have been different, sure, in a ton of ways. I am glad they didn't go with the skills route for it, it would have felt way to much like the D20 RCR. (Which I actually liked the Force in that game).

I am now anxious to see my player get the Force rating 2 and 3. Just a few days ago I started this thread, looking for a little help and guidance, and boy, did I get some. :) Is this the perfect system for the Force? Maybe, maybe not, time will tell, but I don't think it is a bad one. It will take a little getting used to. Like right off the bat, I am looking for the limiting factor for it like D20 and

Saga had. It is right there in front of me though. The Force die. In D20 and Saga what happened to the Jedi (generic term) when they ran out of Vitality or Force Power cards? For the most part, it would really limit them. Well, in this game, he can use the Dark Side pips at -2 Strain each time. If he is not rolling the normal dice pool to get Advatages, he can't recover that well. So he could pass out pretty quick. I like it.

I have read a ton of posts on this board, and a lot of them are about changing the game and House Rules, and "my" interpretation of the CRB. Well interpretation is one thing, but why do so many insist on changing the rules? Is it just to call it your own? How many actually play the game as intended, learn the ins and outs, and see if the RAW actually works or not? I am putting money on not a lot. I am pretty adamant with my group of going with RAW, that way, everyone can learn the game, not my twisted jacked up version of it. :) I have known so many gamers that have books full of House Rules.

Please, don't take what I am saying as derogatory, well, it kind of is, isn' it, but not meant to be rude or belittling. it your house, FLGS, table or Virtual table, do what you feel is best. And have fun with it. I have just always found it funny though with people and house rules. Saga had been out one week and my old group had 1000 house rules ready to go before we played two sessions. (Ok, that game my have needed some) :) ok, I am getting off my soap box now.

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It's pretty much WAY too late for this, but I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to use force powers as a skill system.  Base it off an attribute, but rather than being able to buy ranks,  you only get skill ranks like the current system gets force dice.  Then just set difficulties for things and have at it.  Upgrade difficulty for this, increase difficulty for that, spend triumph on this, etc.  At most, with the current system a player could have 3 yellow, so I think it would have worked.

This sounds about right.

 

Use the Force skill: cannot take ranks unless you have Force Sensitivity (purchase one of the Force specializations like the Exile or Emergent), ranks capped by your Force rating. Works off of Willpower as the associated stat.

 

May have been a better idea.

 

I think he means -

Skill: Sense

Skill: Move

Skill: Influence

Skill: Enhance

Skill: The other one (Omen?  Prophesy? (Something that isn't a film about Christian mythology)?)

 

In the current system, I like that untrained Force Sensitives can't rely on their powers (low probabilites even into Force Rating 3), but it is very difficult to compare them with regular, blaster-slinging folk.

 

I was going to say it's kind of balanced by their effects being greater than mundane chaps while their chance of success is less, but I'm not so sure.

Use Move to disarm someone?  You can do the same with a blaster (Triumph or 3 Advantages) and you hurt them in the process.

Chuck something big at them?  Weapons, backed by success-based damaged can usually do more.

Throw them off a building?  GM uses a dark side point, they grab the edge (or land on a balcony).

 

Oh, yeah, that makes more sense, breaking the powers up into individual skills. Dur.

 

If you look at the powers from a pure combat perspective, yeah, they're probably outdone by more combat-oriented talent trees, but then you're overlooking their versatility. Move can be used to disarm someone, or hurt them, or remove an obstacle, create a bridge, move a lightsaber to cut you out of a bind, save someone from falling, cause someone to fall off of something, control something remotely... There's a pretty long list of things it can do. Influence can avoid combat altogether (particularly if combined with Sense), can get you information you need, defuse a situation. Enhance allows for greater movement with a single maneuver than anything except maybe a jetpack, while also essentially being a whole tree of adding Boost dice to a series of skills, though the Boost dice can go up with unrelated talents over time (Force Rating +1s).

 

I don't think the Force in this game is necessarily stronger in combat than just using a blaster or a vibroaxe, but it can do a lot of things that no one else can even hope to accomplish, and that's really what it's supposed to be. If you take away the lightsaber, the uses of the Force we see in the films are mostly instances of accomplishing the impossible, and for money, the vision I have for the character I'm playing is mostly striving for that ability to get out of any situation.

 

Now, if you add in the lightsaber and the corresponding skill and feats, then you've got a serious advantage in combat, because you're better defended against blasters than most any other melee combatants (although, in this game, that may not be true with the Strain mechanic), can close the gap faster than nearly anyone else, and are swinging one of the most deadly weapons available. Then add to that the lightsaber's added utility--just as with Force powers, the lightsaber does more than simply hurt people: it can be used to shed some illumination, cut through most obstacles in your path, disarm someone, dis-arm someone, and, with the addition of Move, can be used to escape even the most convoluted and ingenious traps, or be used as an effective ranged weapon.

 

Even in Saga Edition, using Force powers in combat wasn't really any more effective than a soldier with a blaster was. The latter character was often rolling for as much or more damage (they were adding half of their level to damage, along with additional bonuses from feats and talents), more easily bypassing damage threshold and damage reduction, moving you down the condition track faster, and with a chance to score a critical hit to double up on all of that, all while often being able to attack from farther away. They just couldn't do things like move opponents around the battlefield, or affect a large number of foes for a decent amount of damage while also pushing them down the condition track, and they couldn't absorb hits as well as a Force user, nor recover as quickly (though the additional Second Wind talents and feats were more likely in their repertoire than that of the Jedi).

 

Personally, I think this game gets the powers' effects down pretty well, keeping them general enough that they fit the narrative gameplay and allowing them to be as versatile as they should be, without being too strong. I just think the overarching Force mechanic leaves something to be desired, if only because it deviates from everything else in the system and lacks some checks and balances.

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Maybe this is a semantic argument, but I don't see how this guy is in anyway a power gamer.

 

RAW he is startilingly ineffective.  Yes, when he manages to get a power off he can acomplish great things.  Most of the time he's a chump. Force characters are slow to build.  I don't think even Force and Destiny will change this.

 

With his one force die he gets to do something cool 25% of the time.  It rarely takes more then three rounds to take down a rival level NPC for any character even marginally competent in our games.  True combat hogs can do it in one to two rounds. Ithorian Commandos with heavy blasters are scary good. Our Outlaw Tech/Gadgeteer is **** good too.

 

That's a fine thing. I don't understand the complaints about game balance. Long fights are boring, not marathon.  Come to think of it, marathons are boring too.

 

If you were letting him toss normal sized folks without spending two light side pips, that's the group's fault for not reading the rules correctly. No real harm done. Now you know.

 

If you are trying to disarm someone with a weapon in hand that is an attack. Grabing a single object and prying it loose is definitely fine manipulation as well. Else you'd just tear his arm off. You get to make opposed Discipline vs Brawn. Don't have that much XP? Tough boogies.

 

Should they have spelled this out better?  Sure, but they can't make everyone happy. There are a lot of folks who think you can have Star Wars without the Force.  They're wrong and possibly in need of an IQ upgrade, but everyone is entailed to their opinion.

 

Great leaders help their people do great things. I don't see being a GM any differently.  Great GMs help players do great things. Not by making it easy, but by making it hard and letting you win anyway.

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I run pretty by the book RAW games when I GM, and generally in most systems I find it makes things better.  Like in this system I find starship and vehicle combats works fine, even normal combat.  Just slow down, don't try to be so rushy about things.  This isn't D&D.  Actually put forth the effort to run intiative slots properly, and give the players time to take their actions.  Don't just be all like, everything shoots, next character everything shoots.  Encourage your players and help them find more interesting ways to spend advatages and triumphs than boosts.   I have really grown to love this system, and it can shine, if you try.    

 

Like in this system I find most of the house rules, especially for the force, and jedi and such.  Is because people want to be able to be these powerful force users from the prequels, the clones wars, the EU, is you go from being a balanced subtle character, to overpowered compared to others.  "Well of course its completely fair that I start with most powerful weapon in the game, and the skill to use it with spending any extra xp or anything, I'm a Jedi!"  Even though your average character has to spend twenty more xp just to become force sensitive.  

 

When I started my character in the game I play in.  I was able to start with FSEx and the basic sense power, and that was with buying my obligation up.  I started with three characteristics at three.  "Oh you spent 50xp just getting access to your two force sensitive specializations, that's cute... that same thing only cost me twenty!"  Once again unbalanced.  Same reason I don't see jedi being a starting career in F&D.  It'd just be too unbalanced, and it doesn't fit the setting in anyway.  This isn't the old republic, this isn't prequel or new jedi era, this is the rebellion, and force sensitives are hunted relentlessly.

 

And by the by, the FS in your game that does nothing but Move.  He should probably be completely darkside by now.  Using the Force to solve everything, no care for reprecussions, doesn't care about killing or anything.  This is not the way of a jedi, and this guy should be having to spend destiny to convert light side pipes, but the way you've described him, he doesn't really sound like a player that could roleplay this out properly.  Honestly, best option just to turn him darkside then confiscate him as an NPC, player may be pissed, but its his actions hes chosen that's led to the downfall of his character not yours.

Edited by Morbieus

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OT but it kind of fits...

 

I have a FSE and the way we were running Sense's Ongoing was not per the RAW.  There was a thread that talked about it and after reading the thread I started using Sense's Ongoing as per the RAW.  I am glad I did.  It really didn't change much and I feel better for it.

 

We have a FSE that has started using Move and he is pretty leery about messing up the RAW/RAI with it.  I had him read this thread and he is glad he is more of an RPer then a Munchkinizer.  

 

This thread has proved useful for me and our table.  Thanks!

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It sounds like this player is being an abusive **** and possibly cheating. I say it's time to grudge monster his ass.

As others pointed out, gesturing or not, using the Force in such a blatant and wreckless manner is going to draw a lot if attention. Force users in the area should be able to detect the disturbance, while mundanes are going to get on the commlink to report him. Everyone and their dog is going to sell him up the river and try and claim a reward. And Imperial personnel with a brain is going to pass this onto Vader and the big E. In no time flat, the party is going to be knee deep in Inquisitors and bounty hunters.

I don't normally condone grudge monsters, but I firmly believe that major opponents should be able to do the same thing the players can do.

Even without a direct grudge monster, a single use of Influence could break him beyond repair. Forsee can be used to trump his crap. Sense could be used to read his thoughts and prove that he's a Force user. The Empire sucks. Who's to say that some dirtbag ex-Jedi wouldn't sell this guy out to save himself or draw heat away from himself.

EDIT: In case it hadn't been cleared up, both the tree and description for Strength Upgrades says to spend a circle to increase the size of the object by the number of ranks in the uprgade. 1 plus 1 is 2. Certainly possibly with a Force Rating of 1, but it sounds like he's also using other Upgrades. That's a no go there if they also require more circles to spend, unless he is using dark side points.

I would whip this player to death if he were in my game, then make him issue constant and numerous apologies on forums. It's crap like this that keeps me from bring able to play a Force user in any game I try to join. Of players stopped acting like dicks and stopped breaking the rules, GM's wouldn't be so ridiculously resistant to Force users in games. I want to play a Force user because it's an interesting story piece. But players like this ruin it for everyone.

Edited by ScooterinAB

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Thanks, you bring up some good points. But the player insists that he uses the Force without moving...

So that can leave no trace of him being a Force user. I guess in the EU force users can do this. He brought up Star Killer sitting and moving stuff? I'm not big into the EU as I feel it is written by hacks, and fellow GMs trying to showcase of their characters. And there is so much inconsistency in it. I cannot think one one time in the Movies when a Force User does not use a gesture to use the Force. He argued that is was just for the movie audience. And that if I was going to not follow "canon" then he would not have played a Force User. He also said that he as a player never made the motions of using the force like in the movies. I got a kick out of that. My players also don't hold up their hands like they are shooting a gun, (ok,well sometimes), or put their hands on imaginary starships controls and show they are piloting.

I guess I just find the character boring, and half the time ineffective in combat, since he will not use weapon...

I have tried to talk to the player but he seems unwilling to compromise, I already stated above, we had an agreement on the original concept, now he changed it, which is his right. But after expressing my concerns, he said he will not change his plan. So he wants to be a super secret gray force user, because according to him a dark and a light act cancel each other out, and no can tell he is using the force, so he can ever be detected. I feel that now we went from a cool and fun character, he has went to a boring one sided power character. So I guess in the long run, it is really just a problem with the player that I will have to resolve. Either I will have to come on board and let him do, or as Ahrimon talks about in his thread, Forcing My Vision on this player and character. So do I have the blinders on? And just being a Summer's Eve?

 

My Thoughts:

 

 

1) Starkiller was trained by Darth Vader and is the most powerful force being ever concieved by some interpretations of "cannon" so who trained this slicer to manifest force powers with just the use of their mind because they're going to have to be at least as strong as Vader otherwise known as The Chosen One for that to fly.

2) I've never played the force unleashed games but I think his claim is false on it's face and I'd need concrete proof he never uses his hands like every other force user.

3) "Cannon" is currently being rewritten by Disney the only things cannon right now are the 6 movies, Clone Wars & Rebels. The jury is still out on the Christmas special & the Ewok movies so if he wants to use a "cannon" argument he has to pull from those sources only at the moment as the whole EU is undone. Even the Darkhorse comic line has been removed from cannon when the license shifted back to Marvel.

4) Again with Starkiller (since this is his arguement), he fights Shaak Ti (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shaak_Ti) in the games because she didn't die in the cinematic release of the prequels thus is presumed to survive Order 66 however deleted scenes from Revenge of the Sith have Grievous execute her so you tell me how "cannon" the Starkiller can do it argument is.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjUAatYo6us)

5) If he refuses to use a conduit to focus the force such as hand motions add Setbacks to his checks or make him suffer strain from the taxing nature of trying to tap into the force without proper training using only the power of his mind while standing stiff as a board in combat with blaster bolts firing everywhere.

6) Have his connection to the force weaken due to lack of proper training or failure to follow Jedi/Sith teachings the Force is described as living entity it can get mad at him at GM discretion as far as I'm concerned. Admittedly this is kind of an extreme solution since it limits the player but if they're fighting you about literally demonstrating hand movements they deserve a bit of a slapdown.

6) Also even if he never uses it Vader could sense Kenobi & Luke without either of them using power from what would be Extreme starship range so an Imperial Hand can still find him and he won't have the training to defend himself from detection.

 

On the subject of just how good you can be with 1 Force die I recall from an Order 66 Podcast (or several) and the book a few things worth mentioning:

1) If someone has several ranks of Strength/Range/Magnitude it takes only 1 pip to activate all upgrades for a particular category 1 for Strength and 1 for Range separately. The 1 pip for the power itself is also required.

2) You can only spend 1 Destiny point per check so if you roll double black you can at best get 1 pip out of it which reading my book means you can chuck a Sil 0 object Short range for 5 damage as an attack using the Discipline skill.

3) In order to claim someone can activate a grenade on someone they better have the final control upgrade letting them manipulate with the force like it's an object in their hands, same for pulling something out of someones hands unopposed. The dev who fielded this question said it could also be an opposed check versus the targets weapon skill to hold onto their weapon.

 

You aren't being a ****** that's for sure, at least as you tell it and I find that only so much bias can go into one version of events. I love Star Wars and I really try to fit cannon in everywhere but the "it's cannon so deal with it" doesn't fly unless he can prove that all Jedi and Sith do it just for dramatic license.

Edited by InOzWeTrust

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5) If he refuses to use a conduit to focus the force such as hand motions add Setbacks to his checks or make him suffer strain from the taxing nature of trying to tap into the force without proper training using only the power of his mind while standing stiff as a board in combat with blaster bolts firing everywhere.

 

A funny though just crossed my mind. Ever found yourself unknowingly lipsyncing to a song you're hearing, or notice when someone makes subtle body and eye movements during a conversation. I've studied body language and non-verbal communication, and know that this happens all the time. Perhaps the character just thinks he isn't gesturing. Even if he could completely control his movements and refrain from making wild hand gestures, a master interrogator (and anyone else with a knowledge of what to look for) would still be able to notice ticks and gestures as he uses the Force. He's certainly going to be looking at his target, but he might also quickly lean in or jerk his limbs at the same moment when crap is flying around. It wouldn't be tough to connect the tells to the unexpected phenomena that's occurring.

 

So yeah. He can say he's staying perfectly still all he wants, but his body language is going to betray him and he's going to be making involuntary and uncontrollable gestures. One of those "what you think is happening, what other's think is happening, what is actually happening" situations.

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I figure in Force and Destiny they will introduce rolling pools that have force die with difficulty/setback dice. So the force pips are successes (canceled by failures)and the difficulty/setback dice are opposed checks when against other force users.

Force users are a notch above the rest. Because when you think about it, if you combat someone with mystical powers (the force) you are most likely not going to be able to resist if you also dont have mystical powers...

Edited by Kager

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I figure in Force and Destiny they will introduce rolling pools that have force die with difficulty/setback dice. So the force pips are successes (canceled by failures)and the difficulty/setback dice are opposed checks when against other force users.

Force users are a notch above the rest. Because when you think about it, if you combat someone with mystical powers (the force) you are most likely not going to be able to resist if you also dont have mystical powers...

 

I hope not.

 

I expect for Force & Destiny to add more Jedi/Sith related items/classes/powers for wider diversity without wholly changing how the force power system works in EotE or AoR. AoR's additions are seamlessly merged since the system was designed for all 3 books to be compatible.

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It sounds like this player is being an abusive **** and possibly cheating. I say it's time to grudge monster his ass.As others pointed out, gesturing or not, using the Force in such a blatant and wreckless manner is going to draw a lot if attention. Force users in the area should be able to detect the disturbance, while mundanes are going to get on the commlink to report him. Everyone and their dog is going to sell him up the river and try and claim a reward. And Imperial personnel with a brain is going to pass this onto Vader and the big E. In no time flat, the party is going to be knee deep in Inquisitors and bounty hunters.I don't normally condone grudge monsters, but I firmly believe that major opponents should be able to do the same thing the players can do.Even without a direct grudge monster, a single use of Influence could break him beyond repair. Forsee can be used to trump his crap. Sense could be used to read his thoughts and prove that he's a Force user. The Empire sucks. Who's to say that some dirtbag ex-Jedi wouldn't sell this guy out to save himself or draw heat away from himself.EDIT: In case it hadn't been cleared up, both the tree and description for Strength Upgrades says to spend a circle to increase the size of the object by the number of ranks in the uprgade. 1 plus 1 is 2. Certainly possibly with a Force Rating of 1, but it sounds like he's also using other Upgrades. That's a no go there if they also require more circles to spend, unless he is using dark side points.I would whip this player to death if he were in my game, then make him issue constant and numerous apologies on forums. It's crap like this that keeps me from bring able to play a Force user in any game I try to join. Of players stopped acting like dicks and stopped breaking the rules, GM's wouldn't be so ridiculously resistant to Force users in games. I want to play a Force user because it's an interesting story piece. But players like this ruin it for everyone.

WTF. Over react much? The guy's used the force like four times in the campaign and you're calling for vengeance? Wow. I'll make sure to never play a game you run. Next you'll be having characters loose their arms just for shooting a blaster pistol.

Edited by Ahrimon
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