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r2trooper

Force user advancement thoughts

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Yeah... I think this is the best Star Wars RPG I have ran, but the book does leave a lot to be desired in the layout. Fantastic product, just bad execution.

I haven't played enough yet to be head-over-heels for this (only 3 game sessions), but I'm enjoying it. I like Saga Edition, but I started gaming with D&D 3.x, so that fit for me. Still, if my group can adapt fully to the narrative focus of this system, and pulla way from rigidly codified combat (mostly, dealing without minis and a battle mat, and keeping things flowing) a bit, I think I'll really enjoy this.

 

Also, I suspect that it's going to be a long time, at least relative to the other characters in the group, before I feel like my character is meeting my expectations. Being a Force user is very expensive XP-wise. If the guy in your game has felt useless some of the time, he should see me in action: I've got nothing that really works in combat so far, and can hardly do much outside of combat (lessened further by my character's reluctance to reveal himself as a Jedi either to his shipmates or anyone else just yet). The most impressive things I've done so far were putting out a fire on an enemy by using Move to activate a "sprinkler" system (the fire was started by a teammate with a flamethrower) to relieve him of his suffering, and succeeding on 2 daunting skill checks, first to Charm a Hutt, then to see through a Deception from some an assassin droid.

 

 

Really EotE really isn't meant for full fledged force users neither is AoR for that matter. Its meant for the pilot that is among the best because he has a touch of the force but doesn't really know it or the the explorer that always happens to avoid the predators on a planet. Its meant for little touches of the force not for being vader, obi wan kenobi, or luke in return of the jedi but you could be luke before he goes to dagobah. If you want to play that heavy of force use you are going to have to wait for force and destiny.. I also believe that's why force powers are so expensive is so that you don't just try and build such a character.,

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Thanks, you bring up some good points. But the player insists that he uses the Force without moving...

So that can leave no trace of him being a Force user. I guess in the EU force users can do this. He brought up Star Killer sitting and moving stuff? I'm not big into the EU as I feel it is written by hacks, and fellow GMs trying to showcase of their characters. And there is so much inconsistency in it. I cannot think one one time in the Movies when a Force User does not use a gesture to use the Force. He argued that is was just for the movie audience. And that if I was going to not follow "canon" then he would not have played a Force User. He also said that he as a player never made the motions of using the force like in the movies. I got a kick out of that. My players also don't hold up their hands like they are shooting a gun, (ok,well sometimes), or put their hands on imaginary starships controls and show they are piloting.

2 things.... first to address this.  Regardless on if he moved or not, people are not stupid. Things don't just "float".   What do you have? a group of 5?  anyway, someone in that group is using the force.  An inquisitor would get to the bottom of this right quick.  capture the weakest member of the group and start torturing them.   if your group is actually composed of "scum and villainy", it won't take long for said person to start dime-dropping.  Self-preservation is a powerful motivator.

I'm kinda a force stickler in my campaign, as well.  I don't allow anything beyond basic force powers, without "training".  This has led to several adventures in attempts to track down lost holocrons, or steal them from high powered beings. 

In addition and a large part of my "force stickler", is the standing bounty.  50K for information that leads to the capture of a force user, 100K + for their head.  As my group is also composed of "scum", and a bounty hunter... in game they have turned on the force using character and brought his head in for ship repair money.   Took that player 3 characters to figure out that force abilities had to be kept on the down low, and I didn't come out to be the scrooge in it.  You have the prefect group for the players to police themselves.  Dry up the funds for a bit, and put the wanted signs out. As a side note: said character is still playing a force using character (3rd toon), however, it's kept to the barest of minimums.

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R2builder, never let players compel or coerce you into a ruling you don't agree with because of some EU knowledge the player has which you don't.

 

Starkiller and The Force Unleashed doesn't even have to have occurred in your game world. I've never played it, so in my world it doesn't necessarily exist. I'm a fan of the Clone Wars, so I put in characters and events from the TV show as reference points in our games. 

 

However if I got something wrong or somebody remembered a detail from an episode that would mess up the plans for the adventure, or would lead to the player doing something I don't agree they should be able to do, I can put my foot down and use GM's prerogative not to allow such a thing.

whafrog, Aservan, Liloki and 1 other like this

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 Either I will have to come on board and let him do, or as Ahrimon talks about in his thread, Forcing My Vision on this player and character. So do I have the blinders on? And just being a Summer's Eve?

Oi.  I've done everything but state directly that the thread is in no way associated with your game and is based on just threads on the forums.  So take off you hoser!  :P

 

Now in yesterday's adventure they raided a small imperial comm station where a imperial bounty hunter took his prey. Well, after being railroaded into fighting, they blasted the few imps, and met the hunter. The force player had lifted him up and turned him around so he couldn't shoot the group. After thermal detonator negotiations, they all agreed to leave in peace. The hunter even made a derogatory Jedi comment to him. They let him walk out, but blew up the station and 20 imperial comm guys in it to cover their tracks!? So yeah, I'm thinking some more obligation is coming.

I am hoping to have the player come in line with my ideas of Rebellion era Force Users, without being a total d$&k. I want to have fun at my table, tell some (hopefully) good stories, have exciting cinematic fights, and just try to have a good time. Having a guy that does nothing but move object is not really very epic to me...

I would just like to clarify, that while we were forced into combat, and yes that could be considered railroady, but sometimes there really just aren't any options.  I fully expected that things would devolve to combat, but I had at least hoped to get inside before things started.  No matter what we tried the guards would budge.  To expand the scene, we were trying to rescue someone taken by bounty hunters, unfortunately he was delivered to an imperial communications post.  Our bounty hunter wasn't there, so we sort of gambled and used his credentials to turn over a "suspected force user" as our ruse to get inside.  Unfortunately the guards weren't having it and didn't give us any options other than turn our force user over.  I was set to make a run for it, when he went with them.  What followed was one of the most hilariously role-played combats where while we were clearly outmatched we ended up succeeding. 

 

The force user pulled the gun from one of them and demanded they surrender.  They didn't and fired on him on stun.  Then while screaming "lookout he's loose" pretended to shoot at him on stun and hit a guard.  The Politico used his scathing tirade to hit the remaining soldiers.  His tirade basically being, "Oh god, save me, he's loose".  After the force user ran back behind us to the ramp of the ship.  I started acting (badly) like I was mind controlled and shot at the guards again.  The Politico continued his tirade as he ran to the middle of the guards.  A few more hijinks insured and we ended up defeating the guards.

 

Our game hasn't been going on very long, but our force user has only used his move abilities to drastically effect a combat twice.  The first time levitating a cyber-nexu while we took care of the remaining two, and the second time for this mercenary.  Both times, from the players side of this saved our bacon.

 

Yeah, I have to brush up on my rules lawyering for this one I think. I don't think we are using the rules right.

If, as others have said that he needs two light side pips to activate a silhouette one move, then this will greatly reduce effectiveness.  While being able to grab a gun or move someone without a skill check might seem anti-climactic or overpowered it is balanced by the force die.  I don't know what a good compromise would be.  I've purposely stayed away from the force rules and don't know how they work very well.

 

As for his use of the dark side point.  He did that for the first time in the last game.  He role-played the consequences very well, playing his character as angry and quick tempered for a while until the GM told him that he had rested and was no longer under the effects.  So, while I can't claim that he is or isn't trying powergame the grey aspect, he did roleplay the consequences of his first darkside pip well in my opinion.

whafrog, kaosoe and Liloki like this

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Might be worth letting him spend XP, but saying that he needs a teacher in order to learn new Powers - this way, he can develop what he has, but would understandably need help to learn more tricks.

 

I'd also go the "Force users are hunted fervently" route - and if he keeps doing it, and keeps escaping, up the ante until either he, or the other characters, point out what an arse he's being. There's nothing wrong with using your Powers to help - but there is something wrong with doing it at a rate that damages the enjoyment of the game for others, including the GM.

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Im pretty sure Starkiller used movements most of the times in the games, and i cant think of any EU character that didnt use movements at all. Force users are well, connected to the force, and im sure you can find some lore that shows that using movements makes it easier to control. As far as limitations, i dont think its fair to limit him on xp as far as the book says that these trees represent what they can learn on their own. If he's dead set on this, stand in the open, do nothing but chunk ppl around mentality, do two things: A. Have some enemies focus fire the chump standing out in the open. or B. Make him use more pips to use his powers with no movements. Less connection means more effort into using the power. if hes sitting around doing nothing half the time, hell get real pissy when hes doing only doing things a 1/3rd of the time. Also, is this guy sure he knows what game they are playing? One problem i see people having on these boards, and in the game im running myself, is that people want to play Jedi using EotE or even AoR(dont have the rules so dont know the deets on the force usage covered in there). Thats not what EotE or AoR is about. The book kinda states that pretty well. If you as a GM are fine running that or making houserules go all out, but if they are causing problems explain to them (politely) that they are playing the wrong game and need to correct their **** or gtfo.

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Hmm.

As for light and dark actions/thoughts canceling, that's a thing. There a handful of force organizations that focus on walking that line. There's a few that say there are no dark side powers, it's just the intentions that matter. There's a light side version of the lightning power that is a nonlethal variant. One organization exiles is members of they go light or dark, until they have meditated and returned to balance.

Someone made a thread about playing a revanite and the suggestion was to allow him to choose before rolling force dice if he was tapping into light side or dark side powers, and t talking how he uses his powers as he goes, essentially giving him light and dark side points based on whether he does good or bad actions and at the end of the game, excess points become light or dark side obligation he can work off and rebalance. If he doesn't, he becomes a light or dark side user.

As others have mentioned, the time period may also make him hunted. Play that up.

And I agree with the posters here. Using the force with no outward signs would be difficult, and would be less effective. I would consider giving him a setback site to not move, and another to conceal it in his face /posture.

Though I think the force move focused character could also be fun, this guy is going to attract loss of unwanted attention.

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This whole "not waving your hands so you can't be detected" is missing one of the biggest features of the SW universe:  that use of the Force causes ripples that can be detected by other Force Sensitives.  If the player is using the Force, hand-waving or not, there will be a "disturbance".  It's not just a matter of things mysteriously going flying and the event being caught on video.

 

It's not very well defined in canon, which means it's completely wide open how the GM determines the effect.  My general interpretation is that life and death and all that cause constant ripples, but they mostly cancel each other out as noise.  Big life/death events cause big ripples (Alderaan).  Any use of the Force outside normal life/death also causes big ripples, and the more they mess with destiny or fate, the bigger they are.  This is what Obi-wan sensed in E1...the constant slow nudging of the Force to the dark side by Palpatine.  It was "elsewhere, elusive", but still detectable.

 

In other words, even the smallest use of the Force can have a big impact on destiny or fate.  For instance, maybe that bounty hunter wasn't supposed to be turned around like that so he couldn't shoot.  Therefore, the player is always at risk of being detected.

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I have a few more thoughts: First is while I would allow the constant throwing of crates and boulders or whatever the second the force is affecting a person that character NPC or PC would get a roll. In the instance of NPCs being thrown off a bridge each one would get a coordination check to stay on. With the grenades a perception check to notice the pins falling out. As for the guy lifted into the air and turned around I don't know that he would necessarily get a roll to prevent it but just because he has to look over his shoulder to see you and would be at an odd angle to shoot doesn't mean he still can't shoot it would just be harder.

 

Second excessive use of the force causes strain I can't remember for sure if its a RAW or if it was just one of the vaguely mentioned things.

 

Third Luke does manage to not move while levitating objects on Dagobah however you can tell he is intensely concentrating and if I remember right he lost that same concentration really easily. I am not sure you could concentrate that hard in the middle of a fight and even so a guy sitting in the middle of a battle not moving with a look of intense concentration is going to get blasted(even if its just a shot that missed someone else depending on die rolls). While its true that most of the galaxy thinks of jedi as just stories now the imperials are actively hunting any one even suspected of maybe being capable of using the force, as are many bounty hunters for the reward. If he isn't using his powers against imperials or bounty hunters then I would give any one with just about any knowledge skill a shot at a "hey I remember reading somewhere that there were people capable of moving things around with their mind" check. Because really no one stands in the middle of a fight doing nothing so that is going to draw alot of suspicion especially when weird stuff starts happening.

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Thanks, you bring up some good points. But the player insists that he uses the Force without moving...

So that can leave no trace of him being a Force user. I guess in the EU force users can do this. He brought up Star Killer sitting and moving stuff? I'm not big into the EU as I feel it is written by hacks, and fellow GMs trying to showcase of their characters. And there is so much inconsistency in it. I cannot think one one time in the Movies when a Force User does not use a gesture to use the Force. He argued that is was just for the movie audience. And that if I was going to not follow "canon" then he would not have played a Force User. He also said that he as a player never made the motions of using the force like in the movies. I got a kick out of that. My players also don't hold up their hands like they are shooting a gun, (ok,well sometimes), or put their hands on imaginary starships controls and show they are piloting.

2 things.... first to address this.  Regardless on if he moved or not, people are not stupid. Things don't just "float".   What do you have? a group of 5?  anyway, someone in that group is using the force.  An inquisitor would get to the bottom of this right quick.  capture the weakest member of the group and start torturing them.   if your group is actually composed of "scum and villainy", it won't take long for said person to start dime-dropping.  Self-preservation is a powerful motivator.

I'm kinda a force stickler in my campaign, as well.  I don't allow anything beyond basic force powers, without "training".  This has led to several adventures in attempts to track down lost holocrons, or steal them from high powered beings. 

In addition and a large part of my "force stickler", is the standing bounty.  50K for information that leads to the capture of a force user, 100K + for their head.  As my group is also composed of "scum", and a bounty hunter... in game they have turned on the force using character and brought his head in for ship repair money.   Took that player 3 characters to figure out that force abilities had to be kept on the down low, and I didn't come out to be the scrooge in it.  You have the prefect group for the players to police themselves.  Dry up the funds for a bit, and put the wanted signs out. As a side note: said character is still playing a force using character (3rd toon), however, it's kept to the barest of minimums.

 

This. If your Force user is just standing still and never giving any sign of action, you can always have a survivor of the battle mistake someone else in the party as the Force user. Now suddenly some poor doctor or mechanic is being hunted down at every turn, and it's all because someone couldn't be subtle about their abilities.

 

I'm definitely not anti-Force (I play a Politico/FSE), but power-gaming is power-gaming. Like someone else suggested, flip a Dark side point and upgrade the difficulty of those Discipline checks whenever possible. Put your players in heavily populated areas, where someone is bound to notice the guy who just stood there while things flew through the air. Get the party separated, so the Force user can't hide behind teammates with guns. Or run scenarios with little-to-no combat, perhaps your player will find himself bored and realize that branching out will make him more useful.

 

And if that fails, there's always death sticks.

Edited by SlickAWG

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I have a few more thoughts: First is while I would allow the constant throwing of crates and boulders or whatever the second the force is affecting a person that character NPC or PC would get a roll. In the instance of NPCs being thrown off a bridge each one would get a coordination check to stay on......

This GM seems to be interpreting the rules rather loosely.  

 

The move power is for inanimate objects, you can't move people.  You cant toss, them, etc..  In addition even if they could move a person, figure 150 lbs.. Do you have any idea how much "force" that person would have to have?  For a group that hasn't been "playing that long", said person should have nowhere near the amount of xp needed for that. 

You'd require a second force point to go beyond the lift, not to mention the increased strength, range, control, etc...  I believe the first move is a 5 lb limit (for some reason that's stuck in my head, but don't quote me on this). 

While flicking the guns out of someone's hand is more plausible, that person would have to have a ridiculously low brawn, like a 1, considering his gun is out an aimed.  That means he is holding it taut, meaning that 5 pound push you gave it, at most is going to throw the aim off.  If the gun were holstered you could pop it out of the holster and move it, but this is in hand, and not an unsuspecting hand at that.  At the very least, his brawn score should be added as difficulty dice.

 

There is an order 66 podcast that had a dev go into this.  Needless to say, whomever is GMing this is allowing for a wee too much to go on.  But to each their own....   If you want to tone it down a bit, listen to said podcast.

Edited by Shamrock

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The move power is for inanimate objects, you can't move people.  You cant toss, them, etc..  In addition even if they could move a person, figure 150 lbs.. Do you have any idea how much "force" that person would have to have?  For a group that hasn't been "playing that long", said person should have nowhere near the amount of xp needed for that. 

 

With the Strength upgrade you can move Silhouette 1 objects, a human is noted as Silhouette 1  :. You can move a humanoid with the Force.

It should require two pips; one to activate the base power and another to activate the upgrade. A FSE with a Force Rating 1, should be able to move a humanoid body with a good roll.

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After reading everyones post, I feel the opposite. The force progression does suck & takes a long time for player to become "jedi level, if you will", but to force players back with GM tricks like needing a teacher or finding a holocron to progress further in this stage of the game is like telling a child to stop imagining to be a cop when he grows up until he finishes school & learns criminal justice first...to me that keeps the fun out.

We do not have Age of Rebellion out yet in hard copy (except for the beta) and who knows what will be added in Force & Destiny. I say let the players enjoy the game for how they want to see their characters play out in this system just as much as the GMs want to run their world in this system. Want to force the players to need to find a teacher or holocron to progress, then say the force powers in Force & Destiny cant be learned without it. Dont force them this early into the game.

Another similarity is like taking a child to the toy store & then saying you can only get something in the dollar aisle or nothing over $10.00. Too me thats a bit F'ed up. Either let him/her decide what toy he/she wants (force exile with or without a lot of force powers by their choice) or don't take him/her to the toy store (disallow force exile to be used at all.)

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Considering that at the moment, with all the books (AoR beta include) a Force user can at best AND with a lot of XP reach a Froce rating of 3, I think that hindering Force usage isn't really a problem. With only Force rating 1 a force user can barely do thing on the level of a cantrip, things that mentalist and illusionist can easily do nowadays in our world (or at least they can make very good illusion of it). With a Force rating of 3 a Force user can generate a maximum of 6 force point (either black or white), which can trigger powerful effect IF he or she has also invested many XP in force power too. With all these XP your Assassin / Marauder is a one shot killing machine at both range and close combat, your pilot can be a member of the famous Rpgue Squadron and your Politico can convince entire towns (if not more) to do his binding. I don't think there is a balance problem here.

I am a GM at Star Wars since the old D6 edition, when the Force rules were really broken and a Force user could become a powerhouse capable of doing everything the team do, but better. This is not the case anymore. A dedicated Force character will only become what he is: a character good at using the Force. So putting restriction on such character will only frustrates them. If we play Star Wars it is a mix of space ship, cow boys and fantasy (knights using swords of light and magic being part of a typical fantasy setting from my point of view). Basically, the three things that made us dream when we were little kids (or at least that made me dream). If you forcibly exclude on of these aspects of your games, you are not playing Star Wars anymore.

Considering the need of a master I see at least 3 reasons why it shouldn't be mandatory:

- First, it is not mandatory rule wise. FFG probably did some balancing job before launching their game (like a beta for example).

- Second, their is plenty of example of powerful self taught Force user in the Extended Universe. Why your player cannot be one ? Most of Force tradition have started with self taught Force user.

- Third, the Force power presented in the book are very basic, even in their most potent form. They are not comparable to feat like those of the Dark Woman (that could literally walk through walls !) for example or more canon wise those of Dark Vador (like absorbing blaster fire with his hand or strangling an incompetent admiral thousand of kilometers away).

 

In my games, the only limit I impose, is for player to justify where a new power come from when they take it. Sense and Enhance come very naturally, being aware of surrounding and enhancing his own abilities being quite common needs in stressful situations. More esoteric applications (Move, Influence and Foresee) need a bit more of convincing role play from my players to open, but I allow them to buy it in game ! Do you think Luke ever managed to move something with the Force before he really needed to get his lightsaber on Hoth ?

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First off, thanks everyone for the great posts and insight. It has been truly helpful. 

First I would like to address this:

 

 

The move power is for inanimate objects, you can't move people.  You cant toss, them, etc..  In addition even if they could move a person, figure 150 lbs.. Do you have any idea how much "force" that person would have to have?  For a group that hasn't been "playing that long", said person should have nowhere near the amount of xp needed for that. 

 

With the Strength upgrade you can move Silhouette 1 objects, a human is noted as Silhouette 1  :. You can move a humanoid with the Force.

It should require two pips; one to activate the base power and another to activate the upgrade. A FSE with a Force Rating 1, should be able to move a humanoid body with a good roll.

 

Thanks for the great thoughts. "At it's most basic, Move allows the Force user to move small objects he is very close to" Upgrades "Move's upgrades are fairly simple; they include the ability   to move more objects, larger objects, and move objects greater distances." So it is debatable I guess as to what this book means by object. By it's very definition it is  a person, but the book seems to use living persons as "Targets" and non-living as "objects". So thoughts?   So Shamrock, do you consider yourself to be an object? :) 

Now, I did mislead you all, he is Force Exile, not Emergent. That was our original plan, but that too was changed. As far as XP, I think he has a total of 290, with 30 not being used yet. That does include the starting 110 XP for Arkanian Offshoot.   

No matter what, he should not have been able to take a blaster from someone. He does not have that upgrade yet. 

As far as Force Point cost. The Strenght upgrade does show a light point on the chart. But in the text for Rane and Magnitude upgrades it has this. "However, remember the Force user must still spend Force points to activate the power's actual effects." This line is missing in the Strength Upgrade text. I looked in the errata and could not find anything on it. So by the text, a Force user could move silhouette 4 off of one Force point.  

 

After reading everyones post, I feel the opposite. The force progression does suck & takes a long time for player to become "jedi level, if you will", 

It can take a Gadgeteer a long time and a ton of XP to get to the "Boba Fett" level. Sorry, thanks for the input, but using that logic to make a statement invalidates the rest of your points.

I am torn on if and when I do make him get a teacher. If I do it would be something along the lines of you can't reach Force Level 3 without a teacher, not you can't learn Influence without one. 

Thanks again everyone, and I now have a pretty handle on most of the Force stuff. Just a few small details to clear up. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on "Objects". :) 

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Considering that at the moment, with all the books (AoR beta include) a Force user can at best AND with a lot of XP reach a Froce rating of 3, I think that hindering Force usage isn't really a problem. With only Force rating 1 a force user can barely do thing on the level of a cantrip, things that mentalist and illusionist can easily do nowadays in our world (or at least they can make very good illusion of it). 

??? I don't think being able to move an AT-AT at force level 1 is a cantrip my friend. Nor is tearing away the blaster from someone's hand. (It can be debated if using Move is on point or two for the upgrades, see above post.) 

 

Thanks for your insight. Yes, right now EU is EU, and there are examples of everything in it. Some good, some bad. Regardless though, with the Force, there is usually a time when a self taught user plateaus out and needs a teacher. In this RPG, other Careers and Specializations can have books, training vids, computer programs to help them learn and train. 

I guess what bugs me most about it all though, is when I mentioned it to the player that his progression may get halted without a teacher, he was just whatever, I will save all my XP until I find one. Not, Hmm, at what point do you think that would be at? or Hmm, perhaps I should start looking for one, can we work that into the upcoming adventures somehow? Nope just defiance because he felt I am trying to use this against him in some way. To me that is the foremost sign of a power player. It's GM vs Player, not hey, well let's get me a teacher then. So to all the posters out there saying no, you shouldn't do that, perhaps it should be, well, do you have a plan for that, or is the player going to try to find one?  ;)

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Hell, throw an Inquisitor or Fallen Jedi at him. They'd be able to sense his presence just by being on the same planet with him.

 

It they're strong enough, they could even sense him from within the system or even across sectors.

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Thanks for your insight. Yes, right now EU is EU, and there are examples of everything in it. Some good, some bad. Regardless though, with the Force, there is usually a time when a self taught user plateaus out and needs a teacher. In this RPG, other Careers and Specializations can have books, training vids, computer programs to help them learn and train. 

I guess what bugs me most about it all though, is when I mentioned it to the player that his progression may get halted without a teacher, he was just whatever, I will save all my XP until I find one. Not, Hmm, at what point do you think that would be at? or Hmm, perhaps I should start looking for one, can we work that into the upcoming adventures somehow? Nope just defiance because he felt I am trying to use this against him in some way. To me that is the foremost sign of a power player. It's GM vs Player, not hey, well let's get me a teacher then. So to all the posters out there saying no, you shouldn't do that, perhaps it should be, well, do you have a plan for that, or is the player going to try to find one?  ;)

 

Couple points:

1. I think you're right that a fair amount of the issue is about the player. I get the impression that you really have not gotten much buy-in from him. That's fairly problematic. I'd say this is the thing to be most concerned about. If your player doesn't trust you to provide a good game and is constantly challenging you on things, there is no way to avoid a GM vs. PC mindset.

 

2. I'm not sure, but he seems to be doing a LOT with the Force. Are you sure you're using all the proper rules regarding Force users? A Force rating of 1 is really limiting.  I am surprised at how much he has been able to do with a single Force die.

 

3. You seem to be specifically limiting HIS advancement while not limiting anyone else's. That would kind of rub me the wrong way too and I'm a pretty easy going player. But you are telling him he can't spend his XP in FSE without a teacher (which nobody else needs) while at the same time complaining that he's just going to save his XP for whenever you provide a teacher. If he has the impression that you are specificaly targeting his character, he will probably not be too interested in working with you to reach a solution.

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Sorry, the quotes got all messed up.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Force rating 1. Has Move Basic Power. Requires one Light pip. Has Strength upgrade four. To lift a silhouette 4 will only take one more light pip. I don't see how that is not in line with the CRB. Now last adventure he did pull a gun using move, and he should not have, as he did not have that upgrade yet, but he does now. With that upgrade and two Range upgrades, he can pull a blaster from someone from long range on two light pips. At short range he can hurl a silhouette 4 into someone doing 40 points of damage will take two force pips, and a Discipline Check (1Y, 1G) vs ranged defense. 

He does not have the 4 Strength upgrades yet, only 1, but still it doesn't matter if it is one or four upgrades.  

I fail to see how Force rating 1 is limited. Yes, most things require  2 light pips, 3 in 12 chance. Not great, but doable. 

He has a 3 in 12 chance to knock over an AT-AT at short range. I don't really see that as limiting.

Edited by R2builder

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I believe, but I'm not positive, that the bit of extra text on the Range and Magnitude upgrades is to remind you that, although you can spend multiple points on these upgrades, you still have to keep a point for the base power. I don't believe you get your Strength upgrades without spending an additional pip on them.

 

So, if he wants to lift something bigger than Silhouette 0, at long range (2 Range upgrades?), he'd need to spend 3 pips--not possible at Force Rating 1, and unreliable at FR 2 unless he's converting Dark Side points.

 

Also, remember that a Discipline check is required to lift the Object when making an attack with Move with a difficulty equal to the Silhouette, so 4 purple dice. Then ranged defense and other modifiers get applied to that, apparently (I think the wording on how this part of the power works could be made a bit clearer). If he's just picking things up and moving them, then putting them down, he doesn't require a Discipline check (apparently), but if he's attacking with it, he does. Whether range bands, or the base difficulty for ranged attacks apply to this is very unclear, but at the very least, he should be making the check against a Daunting Discipline check for a Silhouette 4 object + ranged defense/cover bonuses the target may have. That shouldn't be automatic with a Discipline of 1 Y, 1 G.

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I'm not tracking here. Activate move is one force point. That gives a Sil. of zero. One force point to activate range upgrade. Yes he has two range upgrades, that is still one force point. It just takes one force point to activate the upgrades for range, strength and magnitude.

Edited by R2builder

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R2Builder, you're right about your friend being really boring, just standing there and moving things around. There are different solutions, but the first thing coming to mind is dropping the guy. If your player is just there to do one thing and go home, well, he's not going to be fun to play with, no matter what RPG you're playing.

 

Or, you could just take it like the babysitter you are. Just let him do it. Everybody likes the guy, so just let him do his force move, and then get on with the story. Give him an applause while you're at it. Tell him you're thinking about rolling up a character that rings a cowbell all day.

 

Or you could take a new spin on it. What if you turned off his connection to the force, mysteriously? What if you told him the next mission involved a force blocking Ysmalri? Would he decide to go on the mission, or stay? Maybe you can just let him dominate his adversaries, but challenge him in a different way altogether. What if a romantic interest showed up, and asked him not to do it because it's just too boring? What if it was an enemy Ewok? Would he force throw an Ewok off a bridge? A cute cuddly Ewok?

 

From what I can tell, this game seems to have a power gaming problem, and the core game itself provides no real counter to it. A few of your players might be all peaceful and all, and here comes this power-gaming, blaster-soaking, Wookiee that just stuns people to death. That's why I always like to make sure to balance the type of encounters all around. I remember I had a force sensitive like yours in the WotC's SW rpg, and he was all so great at killing things. So one day, I just had a massive skill check fest. I tried to include a reason to use every skill check, so they were climbing on things, balancing across pipes, filling out questionnaires with their knowledge checks, just about everything except combat for the force user. And then he fell off the pipe while he was trying to balance across it, and he starts crying that he took 1d10 damage. I'm serious. Crying. Everybody else made it across, except for the big bad Jedi. He fell. It sure made my day.

kaosoe and r2trooper like this

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Wow, that is epic. I have had a GM almost crying because I refused to go on his train ride. I was a Saga Jedi counselor, and this GM believe that you could not go through a campaign and never get a dark side point. So he kept trying to force me to get one, and I wouldn't play along. It was also if I had at least one dark side point then the BBEG could strip away all my force powers or something like that. Something along the line if I had one DSP, he could render me totally useless in one round. Oh yeah, I was the only player too. So when I threw down my lightsaber and said, no, I am a Jedi knight, I will walk in the path of the light, or I will not walk at all, he threw a temper tantrum and just about cried. Last time we ever spoke too.

Any way. This player has not been bad in game, but things have happened that I am starting to worry about, and the conversation after the game left me a lot worried. And again, it is not about me "countering him" it's about trying to use him in a way that can still challenge the player/character, and have him as a useful member of the group.

You are totally right right about all the other skills. I am horrible about not using the skills like they should be. So that will the first thing is thinking about encounters that use all the skills of the system. Every adventure I need to have them roll as many as I can, without just rolling for the sake of rolling.

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Just a thought but maybe split the group up in some fashion.  Perhaps when he is a bit more on his own the whole standing in the open not moving his hands thing won't be so practical and he'll get to doing the ol Jedi hustle for cover and wishin he had a gun.....

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I'm not tracking here. Activate move is one force point. That gives a Sil. of zero. One force point to activate range upgrade. Yes he has two range upgrades, that is still one force point. It just takes one force point to activate the upgrades for range, strength and magnitude.

 

Maybe neither of us is understanding the other, or we're both saying the same thing in different ways and getting confused?

 

Anyway, what I'm saying is: 1 point to activate power, 1 point to activate Strength Upgrade, 1 point to activate Range Upgrade, 1 point to activate Magnitude Upgrade: 4 points total.

 

Then, for Range and Magnitude, you can activate them multiple times, if need be, to repeat the effect (extend out to another Range Upgrade rank in range bands/affect an additional Magnitude Upgrade ranks in targets). For Strength, you cannot activate it more than once--you just affect the a silhouette up to the number of Strength Upgrades you have (0 upgrades, Sil 0, 1 upgrade, Sil 1, 2 upgrades, Sil 2, etc...).

 

So, with Force Rating 1, the most you can roll is 2 pips, which means activating the power and 1 upgrade.

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