Forgot to assign maneuver dial

[StevenO 2,996]

 

It's just the most fair way to go about things.

And it also requires the least amount of changes to the rules.

 

 

It doesn't require ANY changes to the rules.  Presumably the dial assigned to a ship is the same one throughout the game and if it hasn't changed then it hasn't changed.

 

It is all of these other thoughts/suggestions that require changes to the rules.

[VanorDM 11,599]

It doesn't require ANY changes to the rules.

Well the rules don't say what to do one way or the other. So there's going to be at least some change, even if it's just an addition.

The issue here is it's not in every case you'll flip the dial over and notice you forgot to set it in the first place. I'm guessing it can/will happen where someone looks and see's the dial still sitting there face up.

You can't reveal a dial that's not been hidden... So we need something that addresses the issue, since it's not addressed now, so there will be at least some change the the rules.

[Arthur Volts 83]

Also, a dial could be halfway between maneuvers because it was knocked and forgot, so something added to the rules where "X" happens, is better than simply trying to apply the last maneuver. Honestly, adapting star treks, "your opponent chooses a LEGAL maneuver" covers all the bases.

[Bazinga 24]

Also, a dial could be halfway between maneuvers because it was knocked and forgot, so something added to the rules where "X" happens, is better than simply trying to apply the last maneuver. Honestly, adapting star treks, "your opponent chooses a LEGAL maneuver" covers all the bases.

While I agree forgetting to set your dial is a silly move being flown of the edge of the map is not really a fair way to solve the problem. Off course worst case scenario what happens if your opponent was deliberately distracting you or moved your dial and or knocked it. (Im not suggesting people cheat but rather saying worse case).

Giving your dial over is only acceptable if its a red manoviour and your stressed, otherwise you can pry my dial out of my cold dead hands. :-)

[ElJeffe313 228]

Aside from my only two experiences with this in a tournament setting I mentioned earlier, I look at it like this.

 

1. Opponent sets their maneuver dial to a red maneuver while stressed. - Covered in the rulebook, page 17 -

 

"If a ship already has a stress token assigned to it and it reveals a red maneuver during the Activation phase, the opposing player chooses any non-red maneuver on that ship’s dial for the ship to execute" (emphasis mine).

 

If you make this blunder and your opponent assigns a maneuver that runs your ship off the edge, make sure to pay attention next time so you only learn this lesson once!

 

2. Opponent neglects to change their maneuver between turns, leaving the same maneuver assigned from the previous turn.

 

According to the TO at the tournament, the owning player must perform that maneuver as assigned. Despite the fact they didn't intend to leave it ("Oops, I forgot to change it!"), they have to honor the dial. This game depends a lot on situational awareness and what better way to cement that fact than to have to run your own ships off the board, into asteroids, or into each other.

 

3. Opponent somehow assigns their maneuver dial such that they're between two maneuvers (blank space).

 

Seriously, if you've managed to do this and didn't notice, that's amazing. I probably own 25+ maneuver dials, and none of them move unintentionally from being knocked off a table, bumped or slid around. I'd be really surprised if anyone's dials could somehow move to a different maneuver or slip to that blank space between maneuvers because they've been jostled. However, in the interests of fairness, I'd say your opponent follows scenario 1. They get to assign a legal, non-red maneuver. Congratulations, you've let your opponent run another of your ships off the board.

 

In the interests of sportsmanship and enjoyment had by both players, you and your opponent could come to some kind of agreement in situations 2 and 3 in a friendly match. In tournaments, I don't see how allowing an opponent the opportunity to correct on-the-fly an "Oops, I forgot" or "Oops, I didn't intend to assign that one!" fair at all. This is especially true when "correcting" a high PS ship's maneuver.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

I probably own 25+ maneuver dials, and none of them move unintentionally from being knocked off a table, bumped or slid around. I'd be really surprised if anyone's dials could somehow move to a different maneuver or slip to that blank space between maneuvers because they've been jostled.

On one of my TIE fighters, the plastic bit that holds the maneuver dial together doesn't snap together tightly enough and the two halves of the dial are very loose. I've actually had it slip half a maneuver just from me picking it up. As soon as I get around to it I intend to swap the bit out with one of the extras that come in the core set, just haven't found the time yet.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Forgottenlore

[ElJeffe313 228]

Well, there ya go. Surprised!

[StevenO 2,996]

 

3. Opponent somehow assigns their maneuver dial such that they're between two maneuvers (blank space).

 

Seriously, if you've managed to do this and didn't notice, that's amazing. I probably own 25+ maneuver dials, and none of them move unintentionally from being knocked off a table, bumped or slid around. I'd be really surprised if anyone's dials could somehow move to a different maneuver or slip to that blank space between maneuvers because they've been jostled. However, in the interests of fairness, I'd say your opponent follows scenario 1. They get to assign a legal, non-red maneuver. Congratulations, you've let your opponent run another of your ships off the board.

 

 

 

A possible, although I agree unlikely, scenario.  If there is no maneuver on the dial then here you probably should let your opponent choose although I'd like to say the dial could only be "tuned" to one of the two nearest maneuvers.  Stuck between a 5k and a 1 straight, I'd say your opponent gets to pick one of those although if you are stressed the 5k would be red on stress and then could be turned into anything non-red.

[Bazinga 24]

Well, there ya go. Surprised!

Im not surprised.

Cheep cardboard with cheap clips.

My Falcon dial squeaks when I use it, my Hwk dial went together backwards and my tie dials do slip. Ive seen people assign a dial and it slips. I tend to announce what's on my dial before reveling it If it does slip at least my opponent can decide if im being honest and let me off.

If the demand my dial id call the TO over.

[Arthur Volts 83]

Lots of silly "what if" scenarios against wanting to responsibly punish someone within the rules already provided when someone forgets to assign a maneuver.

Since you haven't, with intent assigned a maneuver with a dial, you are in a way assigning an illegal move (By not moving), like assigning a red maneuver to a ship that is stressed. Your opponent assigns your maneuver. They can be as kind or as crappy as they'd like. No need to mitigate the effects of this because it could lose someone the game by going off the board. You screwed up. You won't do that many times.

You want a rule covering all the angles without getting into specifics for every possible situation. Doesn't matter if it's half between this maneuver or that. You've screwed up assigning your dial and your ship can't make a legal move. Opponent decides which legal move that ship makes this round. It's that simple.

[ElJeffe313 228]

It's that simple.

 

Be honest. How simple is it really?

Edited March 5, 2014 by ElJeffe313

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

It's actually NOT that simple, since a legal move on their dial is, in fact, in a very real way not an illegal move by its very definition.

 

Put another way, your argument is that a legal move on the dial, if left there by mistake, is MADE into an illegal maneuver by circumstances.  Which is great, except nothing implies that, anywhere.  That's a rule you just made up and claim is obviously correct.

Edited March 5, 2014 by CrookedWookie

[VanorDM 11,599]

So we've gone from 1 issue to two completely separate issues.

1) What happens when someone forgets to change their dial. So the maneuver on the dial is completely legal, just not the one they wanted. When put that way the answer is obvious. You do what's on the dial. Same way as you would if you made right turn and meant to make a left. The fact that the maneuver on the dial isn't the one you wanted or planed on, doesn't really matter according to the rules.

You do what the dial shows, period, end of story. Now that I think of it in those terms, it actually makes sense why there isn't a rule, because the current rule actually applies.

2) For some reason the dial doesn't display a legal maneuver, either due to the dial turning or simply not being set correct in the first place.

That's a whole different issue really. It becomes a question of what to do if the dial isn't set to a legal maneuver. My first thought was to hand the dial over, like when making a red maneuver when stressed, and that seems like a simple answer, any time you fail to set a legal maneuver the other person gets to set a legal maneuver for you.

the interesting thing is, as far as I can tell a red when stressed isn't actually an illegal maneuver, at least the rules don't refer to it as such.

Edited March 5, 2014 by VanorDM

[Arthur Volts 83]

It's actually NOT that simple, since a legal move on their dial is, in fact, in a very real way not an illegal move by its very definition.

 

Put another way, your argument is that a legal move on the dial, if left there by mistake, is MADE into an illegal maneuver by circumstances.  Which is great, except nothing implies that, anywhere.  That's a rule you just made up and claim is obviously correct.

You haven't assigned a maneuver and flipped it over. There is a process in assigning your maneuver. If I forget to roll 2 of my attack dice, can we claim that the attack dice have already been rolled last attack and should simply keep the results?

There's a process in assigning your maneuver, even if it's only 3 simple steps.

1:Pick up dial.

2:Choose maneuver.

3:Place dial face down. Usually on the card or near the ship.

Having a dial you forgot strewn somewhere on the board, perhaps even off the board facedown hardly counts as assiging a maneuver to your ship.

It's in the rules that if you screw up assigning a maneuver that you can't make, ie due to stress, your opponent decides what maneuver you make. Having not actually assigned anything to your ship, it can't move and is an illegal move. It isn't a huge leap to copy and paste that over to any other instance regarding you screwing up your movement dial. For some reason they omitted this possibility when making the rules, giving the players the benefit of the doubt that they wouldn't NOT assign a maneuver or to figure it out themselves. Before proceeding into the next phase I always confirm that my opponent has finished assigning, thereby reminding myself.

I would be content with the "set dial theory" if your opponent chooses the maneuver if you are stressed and the last maneuver your ship made was red. That's tolerable, but the fact that the basic process for assigning a maneuver was missed completely and is being treated like it was properly completed is bothersome.

 

Edited March 5, 2014 by Arthur Volts

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Your opponent has already 'missed completely' the process of assigning a maneuver.  Forgetting to set a maneuver isn't covered in the steps for assigning a maneuver.  So assuming that their intent is to declare it an illegal maneuver, rather than have you forced to repeat the last, legal, maneuver on your dial, and copy/pasting the rules for attempting a red maneuver while stressed over it is specious at best.  

I think if there's one thing we've seen recently, it's that assuming any kind of precedent set by one rule applies to anything remotely similar is getting more and more dangerous a habit.

[VanorDM 11,599]

It's in the rules that if you screw up assigning a maneuver that you can't make, ie due to stress, your opponent decides what maneuver you make.

That's not what the rules actually say. They don't say you can't make a 2nd red maneuver, only that if you do so the other person gets to change the dial. Nothing in there says that a 2nd red is an illegal maneuver.

Having not actually assigned anything to your ship, it can't move and is an illegal move.

Again, the rules don't actually say this. In fact the term illegal doesn't show up once in the whole rules document. There is no such thing according to the rules as an illegal maneuver.

It isn't a huge leap to copy and paste that over to any other instance regarding you screwing up your movement dial.

Yes it is, considering that you're making up rules to cover the situation, which again isn't actually covered in the rules anywhere.

That's tolerable, but the fact that the basic process for assigning a maneuver was missed completely and is being treated like it was properly completed is bothersome.

Based on this logic if I don't place my dial close enough to my ship to suit you, you can claim it's an illegal maneuver.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Pretty much what he said.  But I do think it's worth noting, as per the whole Swarm Tactics discussion in the other thread, that FFG is developing a habit of making their rulings in a vacuum as far as precedent from other rulings goes.  Bottom line is, if they want you to use the move on your dial, assuming anyone gets a response from them, they'll say that.  If they want you to treat it like a red maneuver when you're already stressed, making you hand over your dial, they'll say that.  And it's a coin flip with them these days if they'll rule in line with a similar ruling or in complete opposition to it.

 

They seem to be ruling purely on a "this is how we want this to work, and we could care less how we said anything else works."

[StevenO 2,996]

Ok I guess I have an INDISPUTABLE solution:  

DON'T START MOVEMENT UNTIL EVERY SHIP HAS A MANEUVER DIAL ASSIGNED TO IT.

 

There, problem solved.  If a ship doesn't have a dial assigned to it then it is BOTH players fault and I guess both should be handed a loss in a tournament environment.  Having a dial assigned is common knowledge even if the content of that dial is hidden so both players would be at fault if a ship doesn't have one.  Not assigning a dial would be the equivalent of skipping over a ship in any phase.

 

 

Now I guess I'm wrong but I kind of assume that every ship enters the game with a maneuver dial "assigned" to it that will be used throughout the game.  When the planning phase is "set" that means you have all the dials turned to whatever you want your ship to do.  If you put the dials on the board like you are supposed to it should be pretty easy to see a ship without a dial but if you leave them somewhere else I can certainly see where and why you could run into problems.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

How about "if a ship is discovered to have not had a maneuver dial set for it, his opponent is allowed to smash the ship in question into tiny bits.  He'll remember to set a dial next time"?  

 

And yes, I agree wholeheartedly this would be mainly a problem for the "I like to keep my dials on my ship cards instead of out on the table where I'm supposed to" crowd.  

Edited March 5, 2014 by CrookedWookie

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Actually, I find it a LOT harder to keep track of what dial goes with what ship and does every ship have the correct dial assigned to it when the dials are all out on the board than when they get put on the cards. When you have 6-7 ships all close maneuvering within range 1of each other, you can be forced to place dials 4-5" away from some of the ships they go with just because there is no room.

[StevenO 2,996]

Actually, I find it a LOT harder to keep track of what dial goes with what ship and does every ship have the correct dial assigned to it when the dials are all out on the board than when they get put on the cards. When you have 6-7 ships all close maneuvering within range 1of each other, you can be forced to place dials 4-5" away from some of the ships they go with just because there is no room.

 

Oh, you have the dial on the card?  What do you do with the dials after you reveal that ship's maneuver for the turn?  Do you put them in a pile somewhere else and then put them back on the cards when you set them or do you just leave them on/next to the card they belong to?

 

In this case, which I'd assume is the most common way someone "forgets" to set a ship's dial, it should be pretty clear which dial goes with which ship/card and if you didn't do anything new with it during the planning stage I guess it should be clear you didn't want to change it and are going to repeat last turn's maneuver again.

 

 

PS.  Maybe you're still deciding Foregottenlore but I haven't seen your take on what should be done in these situations.

Edited March 5, 2014 by StevenO

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Oh, you have the dial on the card?  What do you do with the dials after you reveal that ship's maneuver for the turn?  Do you put them in a pile somewhere else and then put them back on the cards when you set them or do you just leave them on/next to the card they belong to?

If the board is crowded enough that I am putting the dials on the cards then, when they get revealed they just stay on the cards face up. Then if somehow a ship got skipped, its obvious what happened. Then, once the movement phase is over and combat begins, I flip each dial face down again as each ship fires, just as a reminder to me that I haven't missed anyone. Then when next turn starts I pick up the dials and reassign them. I also make sure to assign maneuvers to the dials in the order that they are going to move, I can't tell you the number of times when I first started playing that I screwed something up and ran into my own ships because I wasn't thinking about what order my ships moved in.

 

Incidentally, there have been times when I knew what a ship had done last turn and knew I wanted it to do the same thing this turn and so just left it set.

 

 

PS.  Maybe you're still deciding Foregottenlore but I haven't seen your take on what should be done in these situations.

I don't much like playing in tournaments for any games, including this one, because they foster exactly the kind of attitude that leads to these types of discussions, but if you want my opinion, I would rather have a good game. If I was playing someone and they said they had somehow forgotten to set a maneuver on their dial, I would be all "OK, do you know what you were going to do?" and expect my opponents to be mature, responsible adults and not try to take advantage of any additional knowledge. If, somehow, my opinion of what to do in this case in a tournament came up, I would say the ship executes whatever maneuver is currently showing on its dial. As has been pointed out, it isn't really possible to do an illegal maneuver in this game because there are no illegal maneuvers on the dials.

 

Now, there are a couple scenarios that I haven't noticed being discussed in this thread that can be more serious. The first is, what if someone gets 2 "different" ship's dials mixed up. What if someone executes a 5 forward with his academy TIE and then discovers that he has Vader set to a 1 turn because he somehow get the TIE fighter and TIE advanced dials mixed up. I've seen that happen a couple times (and come close to doing it myself) and it is always difficult to deal with. I have recently marked the backs of my dials with the ship type to try and avoid that happening. The other issue is if someone is using 3rd party dials from someplace like litko, that have every conceivable maneuver on them instead of a specific ship's. Then you could end up with an illegal maneuver, but anyone using something like those I would expect to be playing friendly games with understanding opponents and that they could work out the best solution on a case by case basis.

 

 

edit: wow, that turned into a longer post than I expected.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Forgottenlore

[StevenO 2,996]

Thanks for the full response Forgotten lore.

 

The point of my first paragraph was that assigning dials shouldn't be hard and if there is a problem determining what should go where shouldn't be hard.

 

That mixing up the dials between ship types IS something to consider but in some ways that goes far beyond just forgetting to set a ship's dial.  Then it should be a matter of putting the dial with the right ship type which should have the dial for the ship that is supposed to be moving.  As for those third party dials I think we can safely say those should be "friendly" home games where the rules are already getting shuffled around a lot.

 

In a "friendly" game I really couldn't see the idea of handing over what should be a perfectly legal maneuver over to your opponent who can screw you over however they like with it.

[Arthur Volts 83]

Ok I guess I have an INDISPUTABLE solution:  

DON'T START MOVEMENT UNTIL EVERY SHIP HAS A MANEUVER DIAL ASSIGNED TO IT.

 

There, problem solved.  If a ship doesn't have a dial assigned to it then it is BOTH players fault and I guess both should be handed a loss in a tournament environment.  Having a dial assigned is common knowledge even if the content of that dial is hidden so both players would be at fault if a ship doesn't have one.  Not assigning a dial would be the equivalent of skipping over a ship in any phase.

 

 

Now I guess I'm wrong but I kind of assume that every ship enters the game with a maneuver dial "assigned" to it that will be used throughout the game.  When the planning phase is "set" that means you have all the dials turned to whatever you want your ship to do.  If you put the dials on the board like you are supposed to it should be pretty easy to see a ship without a dial but if you leave them somewhere else I can certainly see where and why you could run into problems.

I lean more towards that to fulfill the requirements of moving to the next phase of the turn, all ships need to have a dial assigned, so people should make sure that is completed before moving on.

 

It isn't a huge leap to copy and paste that over to any other instance regarding you screwing up your movement dial.

Yes it is, considering that you're making up rules to cover the situation, which again isn't actually covered in the rules anywhere.

 

Sometimes that's exactly what you have to do when the designers haven't specically covered an issue. Situations constantly arise in games that require gamers to use common sense or use the rules as best they can to solve it.

Again it isn't a far leap to assign the ruling which deals with a ship that isn't able to follow through with a declared maneuver. ie due to stress and it being red. No dial was assigned. Your ship can't move and when there seems to be an issue with your ships movement due to your inept behaviour, your opponent assigns one.

There are 3 tolerable ways to handle this, but I still find the fact that the process of assigning a maneuver is declared "complete" even though there has been no interacting with the game piece, defaulting to its current set maneuver, IF it's able to use that maneuver. If not, because it's red and that ship has stress, your opponent chooses. Excess amount of rules if you ask me.

Best to be proactive and not proceed until everyone is sure.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Arthur Volts

[VanorDM 11,599]

Sometimes that's exactly what you have to do when the designers haven't specically covered an issue.

Sure, but in those cases you do what ever fits the rules best. Not just what punishes the other person the most.

The least amount of change to the rule it to treat a dial as if it's been set already and use what ever maneuver is already on it. This doesn't actually require a change to the rules at all, the dial simply may not have the maneuver the player wanted it to have.

If on the other hand, the dial doesn't show a maneuver because it's turned half way between two, that's a different issue.

Best to be proactive and not proceed until everyone is sure.

Naturally that's the best way to deal with it. But since the question came up it needs an answer other then "don't forget to set them."

I think most of us are discussing what we think the rules should be, which isn't necessarily the same thing as what we'd actually do.

Myself what I'd do in either case would depend a lot on the current game state. Is the dial for a ship that's flying in format? Have I moved any of my ships yet? If it's between 2 maneuvers is the one that the other person meant to set pretty clear?

If for example the other person is flying a Tie Fighter or even Rookie Pilot list, and the dial that was forgotten could be set without any advantage, because I haven't moved my ships yet. I'd let him set it now.

If you have 2 B-Wings flying in formation and over the last 5 turns he's made the same maneuver with both of them and he forgot/the dial turned, I'd let him do the same maneuver as the other B-wing...