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KineticOperator

Account Syphon

32 posts in this topic

I do hate this card, but wouldn't go so far as to say that it is broken. True, if you don;t have anything that can really punish the runner for being tagged, it doesn't have all that many downsides.

 

Other than lots of ICE, panic button can mitigate some of the problems of the Syphon.

 

Any other constructive ideas?

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You guys should post an image of the card or the card text, for us newbies....this isn't xwing, I don't have all the cards memorized :-)

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@jetsetter: Install this, or keep a tab with this open. As a former newbie, I understand the frustration when people post about cards as if everyone knows them, but in this kind of game and community, it just happens. No one is going to post what Account Siphon does. That said, for you:

 

-----

Account Siphon: 0 credit Event (Run - Sabotage)

 

Make a run on HQ. If successful, instead of accessing cards you may force the Corp to lose up to 5c, then you gain 2c for each credit lost and take two tags.

-----

 

Account Siphon is a meta-defining card. You have to know what it does, you have to prepare yourself for it, and you have to play around it as best you can (have ice to rez in front of HQ, have Assets and Upgrades to rez, run burst econ Operations to recover, etc). Does that make it overpowered? No. In any card game there are going to be meta-defining cards; it's just a part of the thing, and helps to actually create a healthy play environment.

 

Most people will put it in their decks because it's good. Some people will specifically not do that, because it's popular, and search for other ways to win. It's good to have a "leader of the pack" that people can react to and form opinions and playstyles around. Of course, it's not good if the card is ridiculously powerful such that it is needed to win. Account Siphon is not this.

 

Further, Account Siphon is losing steam with every pack that comes out these days, because of increased tag punishment. The Corp is richer than ever, and floating tags is becoming more dangerous than ever. More and better meat damage means Scorch is better, which means having tags is worse. Market Research is a punch in the gut if you're tagged. Playing Account Siphon is getting riskier.

"But!" I hear you say, "Lawyer Up helps Account Siphon just when it didn't need any more help!" Well. I've played Lawyer Up a bunch, and let me tell you, it's not as great as it seems to be. What it does is fine, but you get maximum effectiveness if you play AS then LU in the same turn, and even with 3x of both in the deck, that doesn't happen as often as you'd think it does. In the meantime you're floating tags, or you're holding onto Account Siphon until you pull Lawyer Up (or vice versa) and the Corp is building its servers and icing HQ. If you're floating the tags, how many Plascretes do you have out? Only one? Power Shutdown and you're scared of death again. Or NBN just scored a 3-pointer for 4 off an Astro or SanSan in one turn.

Maybe I'm making it sound worse than it is. Account Siphon is still a great card, and likely will be for some time to come. It's something that you must consider in the current meta. But the more I play and the better I get, the less Account Siphon bothers me. I used to groan when it happened. Now my opponent pulls one off and looks at me as if for a reaction shot. So? It's Account Siphon. Good job. It's a good card, and you played it.

Edited by Hans Chung-Otterson
etherial likes this

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Yeah, it does feel like the cost-to-effect ratio on this card is not well-balanced. I suspect this card will eventually become restricted, but we'll see.

Edited by Venthrac

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At its very worst, Account Siphon is 3 clicks (one run, and 2 clicks to clear tags) with a 0 credit launch requirement for the runner to gain 6 credits, and the corp to lose 5 credits, an 11 credit swing.  AT WORST.  This card is way, way out of the Fing park as far as power.  The devs were smoking something toxic when this made it out of testing in its current state.  No other effects in this game come close to an 11 credit econ advantage, ESPECIALLY with a 0 launch cost.  Good lord, even if the Runner only gained the credits siphoned it would be ridiculously powerful, but then they doubled the money gained and pushed straight into blatantly stupid territory.

 

Can you stop it?  Yes, sometimes.  That doesn't alter the fact that this card is a terribly designed and completely broken POS.  MtG players can lose with a Black Lotus in their hand, which doesn't alter the fact that the card is way, way, way more powerful than anything else in the game and desperately needed to be banned/restricted.

Edited by KineticOperator
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At its very worst, Account Siphon is 3 clicks (one run, and 2 clicks to clear tags) with a 0 credit launch requirement for the runner to gain 6 credits, and the corp to lose 5 credits, an 11 credit swing.  AT WORST.  This card is way, way out of the Fing park as far as power.  The devs were smoking something toxic when this made it out of testing in its current state.  No other effects in this game come close to an 11 credit econ advantage, ESPECIALLY with a 0 launch cost.  Good lord, even if the Runner only gained the credits siphoned it would be ridiculously powerful, but then they doubled the money gained and pushed straight into blatantly stupid territory.

 

Can you stop it?  Yes, sometimes.  That doesn't alter the fact that this card is a terribly designed and completely broken POS.  MtG players can lose with a Black Lotus in their hand, which doesn't alter the fact that the card is way, way, way more powerful than anything else in the game and desperately needed to be banned/restricted.

Actually what you're describing is a best case scenario where the runner can get in to HQ for free. In most cases the runner has to pay to get in to HQ. And if you're that scared of the econ swing AS gives you  put Bernice Mai in your HQ and now the runner doesn't get any money.and a tag for all his efforts. Honesly complaining about AS (especially at this point in the game where the Corp has very good economy and is probably slightly ahead of the runners) is kind of pointless.

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Keep some pricier upgrades around to rez.  I like dumping credits to rez a SanSan or something right before the runner has the option to use AS and ditch 6 credtis quickly while gaining an advantage out of it.

Sure I go nearly broke, but the runner doesn't get a siphon off and has wasted a good card.  Plus they no probably don't have the money to run and trash SanSan.

AS is annoying as hell, incredibly powerful, and can win games.  BUT, there are many ways to defend against it.

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Hmm, broken - maybe maybe not - should it be on the restricted list yeah...

 

I would like to see, Datasucker & Account Siphon both put on a restricted list i see them in 90% of the decks out there

player266669 likes this

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No way. Gila hands,Bernice Mai, all great counters to account siphon.

The card does not need restricted seeing as it is very easy to punish tags/place traps and upgrades as the Corp.

If you think scorched earth, account siphon or any card is overpowered, you simply aren't learning how to counter such strategies. Every card has a counter card, you just need to plan accordingly.

Dexter1258 likes this

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No way. Gila hands,Bernice Mai, all great counters to account siphon.

The card does not need restricted seeing as it is very easy to punish tags/place traps and upgrades as the Corp.

If you think scorched earth, account siphon or any card is overpowered, you simply aren't learning how to counter such strategies. Every card has a counter card, you just need to plan accordingly.

 

Eh, then the game turns into Decipher's Star Trek CCG, which had to keep inventing cards to counter other cards because the balance design was poor.

 

No thanks.

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No way. Gila hands,Bernice Mai, all great counters to account siphon.

The card does not need restricted seeing as it is very easy to punish tags/place traps and upgrades as the Corp.

If you think scorched earth, account siphon or any card is overpowered, you simply aren't learning how to counter such strategies. Every card has a counter card, you just need to plan accordingly.

 

Eh, then the game turns into Decipher's Star Trek CCG, which had to keep inventing cards to counter other cards because the balance design was poor.

 

No thanks.

 

 

Which Netrunner isn't doing.

 

When it introduces strategies into the game, in the same cycle it makes sure that there is a counter or other just as valid strategies. Netrunner is incredibly balanced. It hasn't released in a broken state, if you think something is broken it is how you build your decks.

 

Remember: Core Set and Genesis Cycle were all designed at the same time, then split up between Core Set and the various packs. Cycles are designed at the same time, the difference comes in the meta with how each pack is given certain cards. Thus sometimes strategies with a counter card or 2 simply aren't seen for x amount of months until the Data pack with those cards is released. We haven't even seen the full potential of the pain that Anarchs can smack down on Corporations in the Second cycle because a bunch of their cards won't be available until the final data pack is released.

 

A big box does not necessarily indicate a power surge for the represented factions either. HB and Shaper got new tricks and toys, but nothing overpowered. Jinteki's box will bring the corp into a much more even playing field as they were a little behind for a while, but for the most part they were fairly balanced with everyone else. Look at NBN, they got some amazing cards this cycle along with Weyland, so they aren't being held back by lack of cards.

 

Instead of releasing Currents spread across an entire cycle, the second data pack of the Lunar Cycle will contain a bunch of them for multiple factions, making sure that runners are able to counter early on, instead of waiting for the sixth Data pack.

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No way. Gila hands,Bernice Mai, all great counters to account siphon.

The card does not need restricted seeing as it is very easy to punish tags/place traps and upgrades as the Corp.

If you think scorched earth, account siphon or any card is overpowered, you simply aren't learning how to counter such strategies. Every card has a counter card, you just need to plan accordingly.

 

Eh, then the game turns into Decipher's Star Trek CCG, which had to keep inventing cards to counter other cards because the balance design was poor.

 

No thanks.

 

 

Netrunner has a few Silver Bullets, but no Magic Bullets like STCCG had. My Google Fu is failing me, but just so we're all on the same page, STCCG had a really powerful card that Decipher countered with a card that read "If your opponent played that card, you win".

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Another example of a far-too-powerful card with a poorly designed counter is Rageiki from Yu-gi-oh (I'm not sure about the spelling, I haven't played since middle school). It is a spell that destroys all your opponent's monsters at literally zero cost. They printed a Trap card named Anti-Rageiki that said, "If your opponent plays Rageiki, all their monsters are destroyed instead of yours." A very clumsy attempt at balance.

Netrunner has no cards as ludicrously powerful as Rageiki, and the "silver-bullet" cards used to counter things like Scorched Earth have uses beyond thwarting a single card. I haven't yet found a card in Netrunner that is totally unstoppable.

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The fact that you can counter a card does not minimizes the fact that the card may be unbalanced.

Account Siphon introduces a credit shift of 15cr for 1 action, 11cr for 3 actions in the worst case.

A well balanced card that does something similar is vamp. You do not steal credits, but destroy them. You can drop 5cr the corp by paying 5 yourself. AS allows you for the same but instead of paying you gain 10, that is, 15cr unbalance against vamp (gain 10 instead of paying 5, 15cr profit) and only for the cost of 1 tag.

We can reason that AS is a in faction card for Criminal about they specialty, that is represented by the 4 influence cost. 

Anyway, the difference is so huge i tend to think is clearly unbalanced.

For the chance to destroy 5cr to the corp AS should have a base cost, and get a much lesser profit instead the 2*1 at this moment.

Tag punishment is not even a cost unless you make it part of the card. For example disallowing the runner to remove tags until his next turn. 

Big risks, big beneficts.

player266669 and Christoph like this

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Except you can counter it in so many ways. Also there are a lot of variables you are not considering, like spending credits to break ICEs on HQ

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Except you can counter it in so many ways. Also there are a lot of variables you are not considering, like spending credits to break ICEs on HQ

 

Vamp can also be countered and you have to break the ICE to get it work, but is well balanced.

On an economy point of view we have dirty laundry that may be countered and you have to spend credits on breking ICEas well, but is better balanced.

 

Both of them are runs, both of them have extra costs in the form of breaking ICE, why should Account Shiphon not be balanced?

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because you are thinking like they have the same use.

You use dirty laundry to add a bonus on a run you probably are going to do anyway and add a sweet bonus to it.
You use vamp to drain all credits from the corp and then run on another server.
You use account siphon to annoy the corp.

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At its very worst, Account Siphon is 3 clicks (one run, and 2 clicks to clear tags) with a 0 credit launch requirement for the runner to gain 6 credits, and the corp to lose 5 credits, an 11 credit swing.  AT WORST.  This card is way, way out of the Fing park as far as power.  The devs were smoking something toxic when this made it out of testing in its current state.  No other effects in this game come close to an 11 credit econ advantage, ESPECIALLY with a 0 launch cost.  Good lord, even if the Runner only gained the credits siphoned it would be ridiculously powerful, but then they doubled the money gained and pushed straight into blatantly stupid territory.

 

Can you stop it?  Yes, sometimes.  That doesn't alter the fact that this card is a terribly designed and completely broken POS.  MtG players can lose with a Black Lotus in their hand, which doesn't alter the fact that the card is way, way, way more powerful than anything else in the game and desperately needed to be banned/restricted.

Actually what you're describing is a best case scenario where the runner can get in to HQ for free. In most cases the runner has to pay to get in to HQ. And if you're that scared of the econ swing AS gives you  put Bernice Mai in your HQ and now the runner doesn't get any money.and a tag for all his efforts. Honesly complaining about AS (especially at this point in the game where the Corp has very good economy and is probably slightly ahead of the runners) is kind of pointless.

 

I gotta admit, you are right.  After playing MTG (off and on) for 20 years for about 12 years total.  This game is NO WHERE near needing cards to be banned.  I have not found any flaws yet with the game what so ever.  Yes you need money yes you need ice.  But honestly like a post earlier said which was spot on is "it's a meta defining card"  So what!  I remember when I 1st started playing like 5 months ago.  My 2nd game playing.  Account Siphon.  Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.

 

I was like wtf, "That card is stupid, all you have to do is just do that over and over"  And I felt the suffering of no money the whole game while I got inside jobbed and ran on like crazy.  But I learned the hard way how to play.  This is not a rule of the game, but honestly right now, you have to Hedge Fund -> HQ ICE -> R&D ICE.  GO!

 

Which is fine!  It's cool.  And if you have only 1 ICE, you gotta pick. and get lucky... (get Indexed or not) oh well

 

idk, I haven't seen any flaws with this game.  It's like saying basketball sucks cause there's a Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, or Lebron James.  It's the nature of games, there are going to be All-stars.  Not to mention the best card, the worst card, and all the others in between.

 

This game rocks.  You gotta figure out what's going on and what's up.  If you got people robbing houses in your neighborhood, better get some gates, and maybe even a security alarm.

 

That's just how it goes.  And heck if you look at the flavor, what the game is saying is:  Here are some "powerful" hackers in the cyberspace (cyberwar) and these dudes got skills.  What's the number one skill for a hacker?  To get into bank accounts and credit cards, etc, and get money!  They have to have this card, it's the name of the game.  And I love the fact that, shapers don't have it, unless 4 INF, and anarchs, just have a zeroing out effect.  It's beautiful.

 

It all makes sense...

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...After playing MTG (off and on) for 20 years for about 12 years total.  This game is NO WHERE near needing cards to be banned.  I have not found any flaws yet with the game what so ever.  Yes you need money yes you need ice.  But honestly like a post earlier said which was spot on is "it's a meta defining card"  So what!  I remember when I 1st started playing like 5 months ago.  My 2nd game playing.  Account Siphon.  Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.  Deja Vu -> Account Siphon.

 

It all makes sense...

 

 

I'm legitimately curious how you don't see an issue with a first-order optimal strategy of repeating the same action as many times as possible to not be a design flaw. The devs are big boys, they don't need you to defend them. I'll grant the pro-siphn crowd that there are a fair number of ways to counter it, although I won't grant that "spend all your money lol" is a particularly good one.

 

Further, I'd like to know what sort of power level you would see as needing external correction. What if Account Siphon were a program with [click]: Account Siphon. It seems to follow that, if repeating the play isn't in correction, then a player should have greater access to it. If A.S. allowed the player to take any number of credits from the Corp it would at first seem to be over a threshold, but again, if the corp player must always be prepared for an infinitely recurring account siphon then they should build and play around the prospect that at the end of their turn, the runner will drain their credits and receive 2x more.

Christoph likes this

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I'm legitimately curious how you don't see an issue with a first-order optimal strategy of repeating the same action as many times as possible to not be a design flaw. The devs are big boys, they don't need you to defend them. I'll grant the pro-siphn crowd that there are a fair number of ways to counter it, although I won't grant that "spend all your money lol" is a particularly good one.

 

Further, I'd like to know what sort of power level you would see as needing external correction. What if Account Siphon were a program with [click]: Account Siphon. It seems to follow that, if repeating the play isn't in correction, then a player should have greater access to it. If A.S. allowed the player to take any number of credits from the Corp it would at first seem to be over a threshold, but again, if the corp player must always be prepared for an infinitely recurring account siphon then they should build and play around the prospect that at the end of their turn, the runner will drain their credits and receive 2x more.

 

The reductio ad absurdam you've presented gives you your answer: It's not free to repeat. You get the first three copies for one click, then with Same Old Thing you're taking three clicks per repeat. Deja Vu costs you money and two clicks. Levy AR Access can reset the whole ball of wax, but then you have to start drawing into them again.

 

All of the above is costing influence and constraining the design space in which you build your deck. Much more so if you're floating tags, which has the potential to lose *hard* if it runs into the wrong opposition.

 

As far as the "spend all your money" defense, I don't know that anyone's ever said it's *good,* but you tell me: if you have to lose 5 credits, would you rather the runner get +0 credits or +10 credits? Gee, let me think.

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