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PenguinBonaparte

Custom Templates Really Wrong?

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What are the internal and external diameters on a full circle of templates?  It seems to be "know" that R1/R2/R3 are 10/20/30 cm long and the straights are related to those.  What are the diameters of the circle you get with the turn (4 should make the circle) and banks (which take 8 to make a full circle)?

mephiston x likes this

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There is always so much of a "fudge-factor" going on and some ships getting bumped, moved out of the way, replaced on the board a lot of times... I'm not going to make a fuss over .5mm to 1mm difference in the templates?

 

Truthfully, I can be a bit nitpicky when someone puts their ship at the end of a template and it is turned ever so slightly so it gets a bead on one of my ships for a firing arc or something, but for the most part I let it slide.  It's a game.

If someone thinks they won or lost a game because of the templates, they have other issues they probably need to address before worrying about that.  LOL

Parravon likes this

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All the die-cut ones are quite variable.  I have so many core sets, that I recycled all the range rulers that were shorter than 30cm or didn't have the range bands lined up matching on both sides.  I threw away more than I kept.

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Well I got an informative reply from the TC guy, so maybe the recent printings of the core set are all uniformly screwed up? It's just still strange to me that the FFG printing is so uniformly off their prior one though. If there were variation between my three core sets it would be open and shut. I'll check the circle thing when I get home. It does sound like TC has  been very careful with it and I've seen plenty of cardboard ship bases that are poorly cut. This is a more difficult defect to understand from FFG. Hopefully it's ok to quote him since it should show that their product is right.

 

"If you measure your Covenant range ruler (it's the easiest) it will come out to 300mm, which is 11.811 inches.  That is the standard we derived for the templates not based off the cardboard ones, but rather FFG's own acrylic templates.  Your cardboard templates will be consistently inaccurate and as such I would not recommend them as a basis for comparison.  A famous example of this is that not only are the measurements regularly off on the cardboard versions, but in the case of the range ruler the 1, 2, & 3 ranges are different from the "green" side to the "red" side on the reverse!  In addition our measurement breaks occur at every 100mm on the range ruler, something that the cardboard ones don't do.  Not only are the measurements of the Covenant range ruler precise but the curvature and dimensions of the turns and banks are too.  The cardboard ones don't adhere to exact turn angles or distances but if you measure them empirically, you will note that they are going for rather obvious rounded/whole measurements that they simply fall short of. 
 
TLDR:  Your Covenant Templates are the real gold standard, and their variances between the cardboard ones are completely intentional and official in the eyes of FFG, and are a correction of the inaccuracies of the cardboard versions and not the other way around.  :)"
Edited by PenguinBonaparte
CrookedWookie likes this

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That is the standard we derived for the templates not based off the cardboard ones, but rather FFG's own acrylic templates.  

 

 

I guess that answers my question.

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Ok, maybe I'm beating a dead horse here, but I can see all those explanations for most of them except the 1 straight. Did FFG maybe rework that one between waves? I set them up in circles and the angles don't seem at all wonky on the FFG ones, and the 2 and 3 fit reasonably well, but the 1 straight is further out. They all look like they were made with a different turn radius, so it doesn't quite fit the idea of bad cuts, parts wearing down, and all of that.

 

The widths on all pieces are a clean 2cm. The distance traveled on each axis of the 1T is 45mm exactly for the FFG pieces, 47.5 for the TC. Using my FFG pieces do do a full circle with the 1T it seems to line up nicely. If anyone who got the game at first release could measure the IT and see how far you go I'd appreciate it a ton!

 

 

tumblr_n17ns69q1N1sz2scho2_500.jpg

tumblr_n17ns69q1N1sz2scho1_500.jpg

 

They're right about the TC range ruler too, with 100mm exactly for ranges 1 and 2, but it's 0.5mm too short on range 3.

 

 
*edit* The numbers in the curves are off center on the FFG pieces, but I'm not sure how you'd get cuts consistently the same amount closer to the center with mass production wear and tear and have no idea what this manufacturing equipment is either.
Edited by PenguinBonaparte

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I just got my TC II templates in today and I have to say these things are beautiful!! The only one that I see to be a hair off is the 1 banking turn. The rest, even the range ruler are spot on. I recommend these to any player who has the extra cash to spend on them.

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Glad you like them; they definitely look great! Would you mind measuring the 1 turn for the TC and FFG pieces to see how far they go horizontally?

 

I just measured mine -- two core sets and three TC sets and 1-turn does look off significantly by comparison.   Both my Core sets were purchased this fall, so unless FFG changed them there is a slight difference.

Edited by AlexW

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I just got a set of Applied Perspective templates, and they are for all practical purposes identical to the set of cardboard templates I've been using for the last year. Even the 1-turn is the same.

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If you take some fine sandpaper and carefully sand down each end of the "offending" templates, they will eventually match your cardboard ones. Seriously though, it shouldn't make much of a difference if both players use the same set of templates, no one gains any advantage or disadvantage. If I was playing someone quibbling over something so trivial, I would just pack up and go home. I play to have fun and when someone starts to suck the fun out of a game, I go play something else.

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If you take some fine sandpaper and carefully sand down each end of the "offending" templates, they will eventually match your cardboard ones. Seriously though, it shouldn't make much of a difference if both players use the same set of templates, no one gains any advantage or disadvantage. If I was playing someone quibbling over something so trivial, I would just pack up and go home. I play to have fun and when someone starts to suck the fun out of a game, I go play something else.

I don't think people are worried about friendly games with respect to this.

I've played a lot of miniature games that use measurement and find players get very good at knowing almost exactly where something will end up. Switching templates on them (one way or the other) that are different could end up meaning the difference between hitting an asteroid or not, running into an enemy, or not, and while I don't have an exact percentage difference here, my one-turn looks like enough of a difference that it could throw off myself or my opponent to use each others' templates.

There's the fact that when you pay a premium price for something you'd expect it to be as precise as possible (and maybe it is, just to a different printing of FFG templates). I probably should checked more closely before getting multiple sets or at least figured out their standard before doing so.

All that said, while I think the difference is enough to throw a player off who is used to a certain set, there's probably not a big enough difference for it to be significant advantage or disadvantage in this game. Still, I'd like to know the issue and all it takes is for one person to make a stink at an event to ruin the fun, and you can't just pack up your set and go home there :). And really, it would be fine to switch in that situation, but it would be a bummer to not be able to use the templates I purchased and think look pretty sweet.

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So, if you're taking the time to read this thread, would you please measure your 1 turn for both the custom and the FFG pieces? It doesn't tell me a lot to say that they fit or they don't when there may or may not be major differences in the cardboard. 

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So, if you're taking the time to read this thread, would you please measure your 1 turn for both the custom and the FFG pieces? It doesn't tell me a lot to say that they fit or they don't when there may or may not be major differences in the cardboard.

Sorry, didn't think to measure, but mine match up exactly like yours. Based on when we bought our core sets, I bet they're the same printing. It' said good point, though, and I will measure mine.

Edited by AlexW

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Of course, FFG's cardboard templates are all derived from the standard X-Wing movement template, which is made of platinum-iridium and housed at the International Bureau of Weights and Measures in Paris.

Oh, now why'd you have to bring that up?  Now I want platinum-iridium templates......  and range ruler......  and tokens

Duke of Advil and oneway like this

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My Cardboard 1 turn comes in at 3.6cm:

http://imgur.com/Ry93idU,uMZviYW,J7PZ1YG#0

 

My 1 day old Litko "custom set" also lands at 3.6cm:

http://imgur.com/Ry93idU,uMZviYW,J7PZ1YG#1

Edit: This pic really makes it look like 3.55cm, but I think I'm at a funky angle allowing the illusion. 

 

 

I've got a pretty bad tremor in my hands, but when you overlay one on the other, neither sticks out at all on any surface.  They are according to my sense of touch exactly the same size.  A practiced braille enthusiast may be able to feel something I can't, but to me they are the same size.

 

I tried to overlay them, but between my shaky stacking and shaky camera work, I don't think this really shows anything:

http://imgur.com/Ry93idU,uMZviYW,J7PZ1YG#2

Edit: This pic may not be worthless as you can see the acrylic is 3.6

 

 

My core set was bought in late dec 13.  Dunno if that helps you any, but I've got no buyer's remorse with my Litko's!  USPS let me down for a week, but that's another story.

Edited by MikeEMcGee
PenguinBonaparte likes this

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Still, I'd like to know the issue and all it takes is for one person to make a stink at an event to ruin the fun, and you can't just pack up your set and go home there :). And really, it would be fine to switch in that situation, but it would be a bummer to not be able to use the templates I purchased and think look pretty sweet.

 

Indeed, it only takes one bad apple to ruin the lot. As for events, in my little corner of the world a tournament would consist of less than ten players - if we're lucky. Our local gamers are all old school and wouldn't worry about trivial measurements. We're in it to have fun. The biggest concern is not the size discrepancies, but "are those your templates or mine?"  - we're all using the core set cardboard templates and although being aware of possible variances, we still haven't bothered to compare each others templates. There's usually only one set on the table, so no problem.

PenguinBonaparte likes this

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