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Takeda

Imperial equivilant for rebel transport

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If people unshackle themselves from being to scale 100%, we may actually see a reasonable model for the larger ships. Suspension of disbelief.

Am I also to believe that the entire battle takes place in the amount of space that would fit, to scale, in a 3x3 play area?

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Volts, there is suspension of belief, andnthere is... an ISD is so much larger than the ship that fits inside its cargo bay... and with lotsnof extra room... sorry, an ISD is just too large a ship to add in. In my (and many others) view.

How about the Warlord class AT-AT landing craft.. it is very near the length of the corvette. It looks very similar to the sentinel, I posted a video clip of it further back in this thread, wondering ehat it was. It has plenty of armament to give any rebels a run for their money..

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Make the ISD twice the size of Tantive and I think most people can get over it.

The game is only partially in scale and it's a diservice to everyone to deny us amazing models.

I personally don't NEED one, but it woud be fine. I would rather see a Dreadnaught, Lancer, Victory Class Star Destroyer or Interdictor.

Titans in 40k look acceptable on the table top compared to other vehicles, I think our imagination can rationalize the size differences.

The models simply represent the location of said unit on the space field, not necessarily the actual placement and size of said unit. Wargames have been that for decades.

The space the model occupies isn't a literal translation of scale.

We give a little here. Give a little there and we all have a good time.

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Twice the size?!? Sorry, I'm not gonna pay 150 or more for a game piece.. I think that's not practical for a starfighter/dogfighting game.

That said, I wouldnt mind seeing a game similar to Attack Wing where we can do some fleet battles, then a 8 inch ISD and a inch and a half Tantive IV can go at it, or a Nebulon B, a couple Victory class destroyers, things like that.. but not in this game, it isnt practical, in my view.

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Make the ISD twice the size of Tantive and I think most people can get over it.

The game is only partially in scale and it's a diservice to everyone to deny us amazing models.

I personally don't NEED one, but it woud be fine. I would rather see a Dreadnaught, Lancer, Victory Class Star Destroyer or Interdictor.

Titans in 40k look acceptable on the table top compared to other vehicles, I think our imagination can rationalize the size differences.

The models simply represent the location of said unit on the space field, not necessarily the actual placement and size of said unit. Wargames have been that for decades.

The space the model occupies isn't a literal translation of scale.

We give a little here. Give a little there and we all have a good time.

Firstly no one is stopping your from getting a model ISD.  There are plenty of kits available for you to buy and use.  Secondly titans in 40K are to scale, cost a small fortune in money, blood, sweat and tears, and will make you cry if you should ever happen to drop one on your foot.

 

I personally don't want to see and ISD in this game as much as I love them.

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Twice the size?!? Sorry, I'm not gonna pay 150 or more for a game piece.. I think that's not practical for a starfighter/dogfighting game.

That said, I wouldnt mind seeing a game similar to Attack Wing where we can do some fleet battles, then a 8 inch ISD and a inch and a half Tantive IV can go at it, or a Nebulon B, a couple Victory class destroyers, things like that.. but not in this game, it isnt practical, in my view.

Who says the game has to stay that way? An advanced ruleset to tackle the problems of large scale fleet battles would mean that niche items, such as a Star Destroyer, would most certainly find a home. Simply because you wouldn't buy one, doesn't mean a horde of other people wouldn't be climbing over your still warm body to get at it.

Items like that are almost always limited run pieces.

There is room for the game to grow beyond it's initial intent, if they desire. It would be silly not to contemplate the possibilities.

I could see the ISD as a Scenario piece. Multiple missions included in the box. Goals to destroy bridge shield generators etc.

A creative developer can ignite the imagination of their customers, even if the concepts are lofty and fantastical.

Who are we kidding. Some of us still remember obtaining the original AT-AT walker and other larger than sane toys when we were kids. Those weren't cheap.

Edited by Arthur Volts

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Personally I didn't get into this game for large ship combat. I enjoy the dogfighting as it is. Im not really thrilled with the large/huge ships they are coming out with. Not to mention, instead of doing one of each faction, they are doing 2 from only one, and adding some rules I feel will not add to my enjoyment of this game. If they come out with an ISD the same size as the blockade runner... I will be highly disappointed.

As I have said, if they want to do fleet actions, make a game like AW and be done with it.

Its not a matter of creativity, it's a game balance aspect. 2 large ships on the rebels side is unbalancing this game, unless they put in rules and cards for the Empire.

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Here's the thing, if the Epic format is not for you, you don't have to play it. Stick to the standard 100pt format, which is the current game. Epic is looking to be a format that is bigger point values, but they are also mixing some bigger ships. There are plenty of sources that suggest mixing fighters with these big ships can be interesting. And really, until they reveal more about Tantive IV, we don't even know how the capital ships will attack. So many unknowns, exciting to find out more.

 

And honestly, I think it is a bit early to be calling for it to be unbalanced. I'm sure we are getting an Imperial capital ship by the end of the year. They just didn't want to wait or hold up other products so all of them could ship together.

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The space the model occupies isn't a literal translation of scale.

It's not just a question of size. That's an issue and IMO that's enough by itself to ask FFG to never make a ISD model for X-Wing. Twice the size is still going to look silly, not to mention the cost...

But size isn't the biggest issue. firepower is. You can't reduce the firepower on a ISD to that level and still have a ISD. At that point isn't nothing more then a extremely out of scale wedge sapped Corvette.

You can not put something with the firepower, shields, and over all combat capability of a ISD into a game based on star fighters with out breaking something. It's just simply not possible. There's no way you can make the rules work without breaking something.

Either you nerf the ISD into oblivion so it's balanced or else it does nothing. Either way you no longer have a ISD.

Edited by VanorDM
oneway, Borderguy190 and Araquay like this

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I came across this Imperial Dagger Class Heavy Corvette yesterday in DeviantArt:

That is killer looking. But I doubt that FFG could use it. It's not property of LFL/Disney and they'd most likely have to buy the rights to it. Not sure if they'd want to do that or not.

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I have found the interpretations of a Star Destroyer's firepower to be very fluid. In some stories, there are equivalents, and in others, they overpower everything.

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In some stories, there are equivalents, and in others, they overpower everything.

Well there are equivalents, such as the MonCal ships... But just watch the opening of ANH and see what chance a Vette has against one.

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The space the model occupies isn't a literal translation of scale.

It's not just a question of size. That's an issue and IMO that's enough by itself to ask FFG to never make a ISD model for X-Wing. Twice the size is still going to look silly, not to mention the cost...

But size isn't the biggest issue. firepower is. You can't reduce the firepower on a ISD to that level and still have a ISD. At that point isn't nothing more then a extremely out of scale wedge sapped Corvette.

You can not put something with the firepower, shields, and over all combat capability of a ISD into a game based on star fighters with out breaking something. It's just simply not possible. There's no way you can make the rules work without breaking something.

Either you nerf the ISD into oblivion so it's balanced or else it does nothing. Either way you no longer have a ISD.

 

An Idea we've been throwing around is to just make the ISD really good at killing big ships and not so great at hitting little ships. So 3+ firepower against transport size and up but only firepower 1 against fighters since they are dodgy. Just to make sure they don't become irrelevant in fighter games we gave them the ability to regenerate destroyed ties. This is by no means perfect in any way yet (it also forces us to play turn limits) but I'm just trying to illustrate there is a lot you can do within the rules and still make it feel right.

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So 3+ firepower against transport size and up but only firepower 1 against fighters since they are dodgy.

So based on your idea here, a CR-90 could in theory destroy a ISD if it rolled better... Also a single X-Wing using nothing but it's primary weapon could destroy a ISD as well.

Unless you gave the ISD the number of shields it should have, like say 300 or so... How many points should something with 300 shields cost?

So no, there is nothing you can do with the rules and still make an ISD both balanced and yet feel right. It's supposed to feel like a massive battle ship that fears little. Again look at the opening of ANH to see how a vette fairs when fighting a ISD, and tell me how you can make something like that balanced in game terms.

Edited by VanorDM

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Kinda surprised you are taking what I say as dogma. I said each shot was 3+ dice to hit. Didn't even say how many shots it would have; we playtested 3-4. And you pointed out yourself that it would need to have more health than a corvette. I mentioned nothing about health.

 

We are working on several aspects piece by piece. The first was firepower and offense. We are in no way close to a final product. What I was trying to point out is that amateurs like me can come up with fairly creative ways to get the feel right in some form or another. You just can't get caught up in the whole it has one shot so it sucks and it can get killed so it sucks (well you can but I believe you limit creativity that way).

 

In all reality what we are looking at for the ISD right now is that it is actually invulnerable to all damage and using it in space based missions like a rescue or escort mission.

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I'm surprised that nobody has brought up the Action Transport series.  They are the Imperial equivalent to the GR75.  Imps used them for transporting freight.  Rebels captured them and used them for troop transports.  Win win!

My polystyrene calls. 

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Didn't even say how many shots it would have; we playtested 3-4. And you pointed out yourself that it would need to have more health than a corvette. I mentioned nothing about health.

3-4 shots is about 246 to 247 too few to accurately represent the number of guns a ISD has. Even if you just take one side of it so it's firing a broadside.

 

What I was trying to point out is that amateurs like me can come up with fairly creative ways to get the feel right in some form or another.

From what you've said so far, what you have doesn't come where near to the feel a ISD should have. Once again, because apparently no one seems to consider this...

Watch the opening of A New Hope and see what chance a CR-90 should have against a ISD.

 

In all reality what we are looking at for the ISD right now is that it is actually invulnerable to all damage and using it in space based missions like a rescue or escort mission.

So it's not actually balanced... Which is the whole point. You can not put a ISD into this game and have it balanced, not without nerfing the living daylights out of it, so it no longer feels like a ISD, that or having it cost 1,000 points or so.

Anything else makes the ISD nothing more then a set piece, and if that's all you want you can buy a massively out of scale model to use already.

Edited by VanorDM
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Yup, because just like the movies, TIE Fighters die in one shot, always. And there is no way that the opening scene might've happened later on in the chase.

 

Look, I get that a Star Destroyer doesn't work in your view. Fine. Other people have different views on how the Star Destroyer can be interpreted. I know I have plenty of fond memories of going against Star Destroyers in various video games, and think it would be cool to be able to recreate that. And some just want the **** beautiful miniature that FFG is sure to make. There is no reason for you to argue so vehemently against it's potential inclusion.

 

Anyway, there are plenty of other ships to make as well.

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Didn't even say how many shots it would have; we playtested 3-4. And you pointed out yourself that it would need to have more health than a corvette. I mentioned nothing about health.

3-4 shots is about 246 to 247 too few to accurately represent the number of guns a ISD has. Even if you just take one side of it so it's firing a broadside.

 

What I was trying to point out is that amateurs like me can come up with fairly creative ways to get the feel right in some form or another.

From what you've said so far, what you have doesn't come where near to the feel a ISD should have. Once again, because apparently no one seems to consider this...

Watch the opening of A New Hope and see what chance a CR-90 should have against a ISD.

 

In all reality what we are looking at for the ISD right now is that it is actually invulnerable to all damage and using it in space based missions like a rescue or escort mission.

So it's not actually balanced... Which is the whole point. You can not put a ISD into this game and have it balanced, not without nerfing the living daylights out of it, so it no longer feels like a ISD, that or having it cost 1,000 points or so.

Anything else makes the ISD nothing more then a set piece, and if that's all you want you can buy a massively out of scale model to use already.

 

Just so you know an ISD actually only has 120 guns. 60 Turbolasers and 60 Ion Cannons. The ISD II actually went up to 100 Turbolaser and 20 Ion Cannons (although the differential varies by source). Keep in mind that these were spaced along both sides of the hull so at any time I believe you couldn't bring more than 60 to bear. Not including the fact that the ship was big enough that it couldn't bring 60 guns to bear on ship unless you angled one side of the hull against the opponent, but that wouldn't work against small ships against the hull. FYI The ISD is actually considered a MEDIUM sized ship in the Star Wars universe. What I described above was that the ISD acts a main opponent in a rescue mission or escort mission, hence turn limits which would work well with TIE fighter regeneration. The turn limit itself will balance invulnerability since victory is not tied to the ISD destruction since it basically won't move

 

Although this brings me to an issue I've been having with some in our group (and apparently here) where it seems too many want the most accurate representation of every ship. Frankly, almost none of the ships so far have been accurate. Just a few examples include the Y-Wing having more hull than a B-Wing and it taking more than one good hit to kill a Tie Fighter. Getting the technical specifications of a ship correct and getting the FEEL right are two different things. I believe FFG has done a really good job of getting each ship feel done right but honestly they are pretty wrong form the technical data we have available, but that's okay because they are limited by the game mechanics.

 

For the ISD the right feel to me is that it should be hard to impossible to kill (beyond ramming a corvette into it) and be able to kill just about any other smaller capital ship in 2-3 rounds, maybe even longer because every corvette in the battle of Endor didn't just spontaneously explode. What we are using comes pretty close but it's not perfect. It's just an example to never say never.

Edited by Janson

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There is no reason for you to argue so vehemently against it's potential inclusion.

Yes there is. Because there are much better options out there to include in this game other then ISD's.

Also if you think a ISD that far out of scale will actually sell... At the price point they'd have to set. Well frankly you're fooling yourself. People in this game care way to much about scale for a ISD that can fit on a table to sell well.

Edited by VanorDM

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