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ColArana

Equipment imbalance

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Pistols work different in melee for OW?  I must have missed that...

 

They can be fired semi or full auto in melee in BC and OW.

 

This is a no-go in DH since the autofire modifiers would make pistols superior to melee weapons in close combat.

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*shrugs* I really don't see an issue with that, it never made sense realistically why you couldn't hope to spray close up as a last resort. Because of how overpowered full auto was, it did, but now at least more options are being opened up.

 

You just change the attacks to half actions, change swift and lightning to work like semi or full auto, let folks charge and swift attack, as well as full auto in melee. It seems pretty minimal...

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My house rule is that you can fire all modes in CC, but w/o bonuses due not being able to aim properly.. Keeps it as useful, but is not alternative to proper CC weapons/specialists.

Then again, my campaigns are a bit thin on CC specialists as combats are scarce and most people prefer "thinking" characters, so combat skills are backup basically.

Combat when it comes will often come in form of ambushes where opponents use suppression fire and grenades and that does not leave much space for CC.

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*shrugs* I really don't see an issue with that, it never made sense realistically why you couldn't hope to spray close up as a last resort. Because of how overpowered full auto was, it did, but now at least more options are being opened up.

 

You just change the attacks to half actions, change swift and lightning to work like semi or full auto, let folks charge and swift attack, as well as full auto in melee. It seems pretty minimal...

 

Because it won't be last resort. It will be standard. It makes melee weapons pointless. BTW I am not OBJECTING to the change at all, just pointing out that it becomes possible only once the rules changes are made.

 

A stub auto becomes much better in close combat than a sword, to the point where there is no point in having swords (other than ammo issues).

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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It will also make standard ranged attacks more accurate than standard melee attacks...

 

How come?

 

 

A stub auto becomes much better in close combat than a sword, to the point where there is no point in having swords (other than ammo issues).

 

Well...in the specific case of swords there is a point; balanced is a very useful defensive trait.

Which I guess helps support the classic 40k melee armament of sword-and-pistol.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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1. Pistols can't parry
2. You don't get any bonus for firing up close in melee
3. BQ Pistol never jams, BQ Sword hits better and more often
4. Swords don't need reloading

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*My main problem with DH is that full auto rates are most often way too high, none fires 10 rounds burst from rifles unless **** really hit a fan.

I always rationalised that as it being 2 or 3 distinct bursts carried over the full turn. An AK (as your example) fires 10 rounds in 1 second, if you just hold the trigger down. Yet this apparently takes a full 5 second turn. Ok, we can imagine some time to get into a suitable firing position and sighting the weapon, but that will still leave plenty of time to fire 2/3 short bursts.

 

Yeah... It's kind of sad the errata had to take it away - I feel the bolter deserves Full Auto.

 

My idea was to have each bullet in a salvo add +2 to the BS roll, which for the boltgun would have meant a +8 bonus.

In essence, you'd trade 1 bullet for a 2% increased chance to hit your target at least once, with the bonus of additional hits if you roll really well (1 per DoS).

I certainly feel the Space Marine one should have it. I actually think that should be the main difference between the two, rather than the "Space Marine bolters have bigger bolts" nonsense. The fact that SM get to use such a special weapon as their standard small arm seems special enough, without them having to be even more super special.

 

You suggestion is nice and easy to implement, but it looses the simplicity of working out +10 or +20 to your stat for in-game table usage.

 

46065804.jpg

 

That being said, this reminds me of GW's Inquisitor game, which did in fact assume you were hip-firing if you did not use the Aim action for its stacking +20 bonus:

 

"One aiming action shows the character raising his weapon to eye level before shooting (as opposed to firing from the hip).
Two aiming actions represents the character bringing his weapon up and then spending a couple of seconds aiming at the target.
Three or more aiming actions show that the character is tracking the target over quite a period of time (in combat conditions, even ten seconds is a long time!)."
 
I'm not exactly sure whether the standard attack in DH is meant to be "from the hip" as well or if the game just assumes that the character would raise their gun to eye-level automatically, but I feel there would be potential in exploring this mechanic a bit further. For example, if "hip-firing" were standard, you could have characters assume a stance where they advance with the gun raised to eye-level, in essence having the first Aim action prepared for immediate use, but simultaneously sacrificing a bit of Movement speed. Or characters with auto-senses and appropriately linked weapons would gain the first Aim bonus immediately even if they are hip-firing as they are essentially having the gun's camera projected into their helmet. Stuff like that.
 
Probably a bit off-topic, and I'm also a bit concerned this would lead to an inflation of BS bonuses, but it was fun pondering the possibilities for a moment.  ^_^

 

I presume that normal fire is not from the hip, provided the character knows how to use the weapons involved. I see most DH characters as knowing how to use a weapon properly, and hip firing is generally not the proper way to use a weapon. However, once you get into various special talents (Hip Shooting, Independent Targeting etc, Deadeye shot etc) I see the characters swinging into full cinematic bad ass mode ala the Eisenhorn books and starting to break reality. Lower level (not starting) DH characters are experienced operatives who survive by being careful and being properly trained and knowing how to behave properly. Higher level DH characters are the kind of people who can run across a battlefield, dodging shots in the process, fire a pistol from the hip and know that it will get their guy right between the eyes.

 

At least the sergeant is looking where he firing... maybe there is a nurgling crawling along the ground. But what the heck is the guy with the rifle doing? "I will look up and out of the picture, while holding my rifle at the hip and randomly blast away!" That or he has tripped up and has discharged the gun accidentally while falling over...

 

You Parry the gun (or the gun wielding arm), not the bullet.

Edited by borithan

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1. Pistols can't parry

2. You don't get any bonus for firing up close in melee

3. BQ Pistol never jams, BQ Sword hits better and more often

4. Swords don't need reloading

 

C'mon man, do the math. BQ sword vs. BQ autopistol. User has 30 WS, 30 BS, and 30 S. Target has 30 Toughness.

 

With half-action aim and standard attack, BQ sword hits 30 + 10 + 10 = 50% of the time and does an average of 5.5 + 4 = 9.5 - 3 = 6.5 damage. Since he hits 50% of the time, this means that he does 3.25 wounds on average per attack.

 

With full auto, BQ autopistol hits 30 + 20 = 50% of the time and does an average of 5.5 + 2 = 7.5 - 3 = 4.5 damage. He can get up to 5 hits. Adding up all that damage and dividing by 10 (for 10 possible 10-point increments in a d100), we get 4.5 + 9 + 13.5 + 18 + 22.5 = 67.5/10 = 6.75.

 

Conclusion: The autopistol does over 2 times as much damage as the sword.

 

(It is also much harder to dodge the pistol.)

 

Realism here is irrelevant. In the real world, people do nto use swords, and they do so for realistic reasons (= guns are better). 40K, however, uses a lot of swords. If you want to have swords, you need to fiddle with the realism.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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I like letting people parry close range attacks with firearms.  It's knowing their going to shoot, and cleaving their arm off (-20).  Bloody messes are fun.

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I like letting people parry close range attacks with firearms.  It's knowing their going to shoot, and cleaving their arm off (-20).  Bloody messes are fun.

 

I don't think this makes sense conceptually.

 

A Parry is a deflection of a blow coming at you, which a gun is not doing. What you are describing is actually a Called Shot to the arm done with a Delay so that it occurs at teh same time as another person's attack.

Edited by bogi_khaosa
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I like letting people parry close range attacks with firearms.  It's knowing their going to shoot, and cleaving their arm off (-20).  Bloody messes are fun.

 

I don't think this makes sense conceptually.

 

A Parry is a deflection of a blow coming at you, which a gun is not doing. What you are describing is actually a Called Shot to the arm done with a Delay so that it occurs at teh same time as another person's attack.

 

 

A better idea in this regard, might be allowing someone to make a parry attempt against a firearm, with the idea being the character shoving aside the barrel of the gun, so that the shooter is not longer aiming it at him when he pulls the trigger.

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That's what i was going for.  Delay action with a sword vs getting shot is, by the rules, simply bad.  Delay costs a half action.  You can't even hold for a called shot according to that.  though, bogi, i see what you're trying to say with the idea, there's just too much of a mess with action delay for me.

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Delay costs a half action.  You can't even hold for a called shot according to that.

 

In DH1, Called Shot is just a modifier to an attack. It isn't it's own Action, but just a modified Standard Attack. So you could Delay and hold for a Called Shot just fine.

 

However, I'd say that attacking the arm to prevent the attack just doesn't make sense ruleswise. It would be just the same in any melee, using knives or whatever. 

 

Parry is the best suggestion, but even that doesn't really hold. In melee you both swirl about, moving into and out of striking range. It's not a given that you'll be close enough to parry a shot like this.

 

Another often missed option is Disarm. See how clever that Assassin is in melee with NO firearm at all :D

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Delay costs a half action.  You can't even hold for a called shot according to that.

 

In DH1, Called Shot is just a modifier to an attack. It isn't it's own Action, but just a modified Standard Attack. So you could Delay and hold for a Called Shot just fine.

 

However, I'd say that attacking the arm to prevent the attack just doesn't make sense ruleswise. It would be just the same in any melee, using knives or whatever. 

 

Parry is the best suggestion, but even that doesn't really hold. In melee you both swirl about, moving into and out of striking range. It's not a given that you'll be close enough to parry a shot like this.

 

Another often missed option is Disarm. See how clever that Assassin is in melee with NO firearm at all :D

 

 

 

Oh, if you can get into close combat with the Assassin, it's not a HUGE deal. She has pretty poor weapon skill, and although she's got a sick weapon (Chimera Pistol-Sword), she'll lose a swordfight against most opponents. It's living long enough to get into melee combat with her that's the problem.

 

Fortunately, my GM told us his policy for "giving out" Fate Points, and since he informed us of it, our Assassin's been massively tryharding with her Acrobatics skill to find maneuvers that will net her some. ...Quite frankly she's liable to kill herself before long doing this. During the last engagement he was in, he attempted to use Acrobatics to use a companion as a springboard to vault over the head of an enemy and take his back, before attempting to choke him. 

 

....She rolled a 89 on Acrobatics and as a result, slipped on our Guardsman's back, and faceplanted into the floor beside the guy she'd been trying to get behind. If the Guardsman hadn't covered for her, she'd have likely died right then and there.

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1. Pistols can't parry

2. You don't get any bonus for firing up close in melee

3. BQ Pistol never jams, BQ Sword hits better and more often

4. Swords don't need reloading

 

C'mon man, do the math. BQ sword vs. BQ autopistol. User has 30 WS, 30 BS, and 30 S. Target has 30 Toughness.

 

With half-action aim and standard attack, BQ sword hits 30 + 10 + 10 = 50% of the time and does an average of 5.5 + 4 = 9.5 - 3 = 6.5 damage. Since he hits 50% of the time, this means that he does 3.25 wounds on average per attack.

 

Remember, Swords can "fire full auto" in melee too. It is called lightning attack, same modifiers as full auto in the BC+ systems.

 

With full auto, BQ autopistol hits 30 + 20 = 50% of the time and does an average of 5.5 + 2 = 7.5 - 3 = 4.5 damage. He can get up to 5 hits. Adding up all that damage and dividing by 10 (for 10 possible 10-point increments in a d100), we get 4.5 + 9 + 13.5 + 18 + 22.5 = 67.5/10 = 6.75.

 

Except now you just used 1/3 of your ammo, you can attack 2 more times before having to reload, What do you do then?

 

Conclusion: The autopistol does over 2 times as much damage as the sword.

 

Yes, if the swordsman is not swinging the sword more than once and the other person brings in an automatic pistol.

 

(It is also much harder to dodge the pistol.)

 

Pistol also can't parry incoming attacks at +10 (+20 with GMs who read the rule as allowing it)

 

Realism here is irrelevant. In the real world, people do nto use swords, and they do so for realistic reasons (= guns are better). 40K, however, uses a lot of swords. If you want to have swords, you need to fiddle with the realism.

 

So, there is never a use for any kind of melee weapon in combat. There will never be a situation where ammo is low or you are so close that a pistol is hard to use properly (like in melee) or where a rifle is too unwieldy to use where a combat knife can be useful.

 

Are ranged weapons better overall? Yes, of course, they have range. Are they always good up close in melee, no. They have advantages and they have drawbacks, the same with anything else.

 

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In fact, in the real world, there is no use for melee weapons other than as a last-ditch backup weapon.

 

They are obsolete. This is why armies use automatic rifles and not spears.

 

If you want you 40K game system to be realistic, exactly the same thing is going to happen, because reality says that melee weapons suck ass when there are guns around. If you do want melee weapons in the game (at least for players to use them, and not NPCs that the GM can equip with water balloons of he wants), you're going to have to change reality.

 

BTW Lightning Attack costs quite a whole lot of XP, whereas anyone can fire a pistol full auto. Which is another way of saying that pistols are much much better.

 

There is no point at all in using a melee weapon other than ammo (and to parry... attacks from melee weapons that nobody will be using because using a pistol works much better). Which is why you have a last-ditch backup. That is the only reason to use a melee weapon, either in the real world or in a realistic game.

 

In short, if the system is realistic, you will, naturally enough, have a system that looks like the real world... which is to say, NO MELEE WEAPONS, just like in the real world.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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In fact, in the real world, there is no use for melee weapons other than as a last-ditch backup weapon.

 

They are obsolete. This is why armies use automatic rifles and not spears.

<snip>

In short, if the system is realistic, you will, naturally enough, have a system that looks like the real world... which is to say, NO MELEE WEAPONS, just like in the real world.

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The system cannot be realistic, as the setting itself is nothing but irrealism overcharged to 100.

 

Ah, I wouldn't go that far. I think every roleplaying game needs a good balance between realism and the fantastic, else you're just left scratching your head. At least I think most people have a line where there can be "too much" surrealism. ;)

 

Of course, a possible issue is that all of us draw that line at a different spot.

 

Or am I really weird for trying to inject logic into the setting, believing that it strengthens its cohesion and thus adds to immersion?

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"They have a talent called Hip Shooting, but it's basically just an ability to make your full tactical move and snap off a single shot.  It's an awesome talent (especially if you rock a grenade launcher), but i think..."

 

 

 

The last sentence of the description for Hip Shooting in DH says "As a Full action, you may simultaneously move up to your Full Move rate and make a single attack with a pistol".

 

Therefore I do not think that you can use a grenade launcher in this way. It is not a pistol.

Edited by Exeviolthor

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I liked that mythbusters vid. 18' is approx 6 metres, which is within Charge range and out of Point Blank Range. 

 

No, I gather that neither of the 2 test-persons in the vid were expert quickdraw-shooters or very fast sprinters, but even so it was quite interesting.

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