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ColArana

Equipment imbalance

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Most simple solution and quite realistic* as a bonus:

semi - +10, additional hit per DoS

full - +20, additional hit per DoS

Max number of hits is equal to BS bonus on both semi and full auto.

 

So BS 30something character will hit max 3 times making full auto, especially on guns that throw 10 rounds in one burst iffy proposition. This also indirectly boosts semi - is 3 times expenditure of ammo worth additional +10 to hit?

 

*youtube it, there are people firing 30 rounds mags in one burst @ 100m with all rounds hitting torso-sized target. So if you are good you will benefit from it.

Edited by bojan
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...

Some weapons, such as the heavy bolter or heavy stubber, might even have a lower FA bonus such as +1 (for a total of +10 in a 10-round full auto salvo), representing their nature as a less easily controllable support weapon. This could be applied to Autoguns with a very high RoF as well if you feel it is necessary.

...

 

Machineguns are actually more controlable then rifles on full auto due the their heavy weight. PMK has less felt recoil then AK on full auto due the being 3x heavier, even if it fires more powerful ammo.

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Machineguns are actually more controlable then rifles on full auto due the their heavy weight. PMK has less felt recoil then AK on full auto due the being 3x heavier, even if it fires more powerful ammo.

 

Good point. I often make a similar argument every time I see someone argue about bolt weapons supposedly ripping someone's arm off with recoil.  :rolleyes:

 

Apologies for the brainfart.

 

That said, one could probably still make an argument about a soldier not being able to maintain accurate aim when they're unloading a rapid fire weapon as a result of multiple factors whose effects stack with each shot fired, from barrel climb (however minimal) to the sheer psychological stress/distraction (sound?), hence it potentially also applying to smaller guns?

 

Max number of hits is equal to BS bonus on both semi and full auto.

 

Very clever. :)

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The issue with autofire is wonky though.  Honestly doing a full burst doesn't make you more "accurate" it makes you more likely to kill by happerstance.  Autofire should absolutely be the -10 it is.  The only way to improve it would be to let you have another -10 to double the rate the fire.

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Honestly doing a full burst doesn't make you more "accurate" it makes you more likely to kill by happerstance. 

 

I thought that is exactly what the bonus represents, i. e. the mechanic doing its job. I still don't see what's wrong with this.

 

The first bullet is shot under the exact same circumstances and with the exact same chance to hit as if it were fired via Single Shot. The bonus represents all the other rounds having a small chance to either hit as well, or hit when the first bullet did not.

 

Autofire should absolutely be the -10 it is.

 

What's the reasoning behind even the very first bullet out of the barrel having a decreased chance to hit compared to Single Shot?

 

I'm sorry, but in these discussions I just always have to imagine two characters with autorifles standing next to each other, aiming at an enemy 10 meters in front of them.

One of them rolls for a Single Shot attack and hits. The other rolls for Full Auto and gets the same result, but now we see him unloading 1/3 of their entire magazine, not scoring a single hit.

 

My suspension of disbelief goes only so far.  :P

Edited by Lynata
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...That said, one could probably still make an argument about a soldier not being able to maintain accurate aim when they're unloading a rapid fire weapon as a result of multiple factors whose effects stack with each shot fired, from barrel climb (however minimal) to the sheer psychological stress/distraction (sound?), hence it potentially also applying to smaller guns?

 

Psychological issues are a thing for training, anyone with appropriate weapon training trait in DH could be considered professional enough not to flinch due the "fear factor".

As for shoulder firing MGs bigger problem is holding the **** thing due the weight then controlling it. Set on bipod/tripod however MGs are almost sniper-rifle accurate, you can easily make shots on people up the your tracer burn-out range quite effectively if you know a range - ranging errors will easily make you miss.

 

Firing 3-round bursts (which, unless your rifle really has 3-round burst ability is usually 2-5 rounds) increases chance to hit significantly compared to single shots as muzzle climb eliminates range estimation errors. Simply, you aim about upper legs/groin and fire short burst. At 100m provided your control of weapon is good (and no, you don't need any exceptional strength for this) least 3-4 rounds will hit target, one where you aimed, one lower torso/upper stomach, one upper torso/neck, one to head.

If you aimed lower then appropriate (or you underestimated range to target) first 1-2 rounds will hit ground, but next 2-3 stll have a decent chance to hit target.

If you aimed too high (or overestimated range to target), there is still chance it is low enough to hit neck/head area.

So semi-auto burst should give bonus to hit greater then single shot. 

Also, semi-auto representsmultiple fast shots (round is 5 sec, anyone with minimum training will fire 2-3 shots in 5 sec and hit 100m target).

 

Full-auto firing* is same, you waste more ammo, but if you know to control weapon (jerking it slightly down every time 2-3 rounds are fired and using sling to stabilize your rifle) you can effectively increase your hit ratio with a price of high ammo expenditure. Full auto is not "hip shooting" as in crappy movies**.

So full auto should give slightly better chance to hit to everyone, compared to single and semi, but only higher trained people should hit with more bullets then with semi.

 

Hence my "max number of hits = BS bonus" rule as easiest and probably most realistic solution***.

 

 

 

*My main problem with DH is that full auto rates are most often way too high, none fires 10 rounds burst from rifles unless **** really hit a fan.

 

**For effective use of both single shot and full auto fire see "Heat" (one with DeNiro and Pacino). That is your tipical DH firefight.

 

***At least way, way, more realistic then BC flat -10 to hit bull.

 

PS. And having  -10 for few rare full auto Las weapons is so utterly stupid that I will not even comment it anymore. :)

Edited by bojan
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Honestly doing a full burst doesn't make you more "accurate" it makes you more likely to kill by happerstance. 

 

I thought that is exactly what the bonus represents, i. e. the mechanic doing its job. I still don't see what's wrong with this.

 

The first bullet is shot under the exact same circumstances and with the exact same chance to hit as if it were fired via Single Shot. The bonus represents all the other rounds having a small chance to either hit as well, or hit when the first bullet did not.

 

Autofire should absolutely be the -10 it is.

 

What's the reasoning behind even the very first bullet out of the barrel having a decreased chance to hit compared to Single Shot?

 

I'm sorry, but in these discussions I just always have to imagine two characters with autorifles standing next to each other, aiming at an enemy 10 meters in front of them.

One of them rolls for a Single Shot attack and hits. The other rolls for Full Auto and gets the same result, but now we see him unloading 1/3 of their entire magazine, not scoring a single hit.

 

My suspension of disbelief goes only so far.  :P

 

I can understand your reasoning.  Even though the first shot is as accurate as a single shot would be from a technical standpoint, the truth is pretty different.  There comes a point where training and experience comes together and puts that first shot on the bullseye everytime, but doing that is easier than putting 5 our of ten rounds into the same grouping vs a moving target.

 

Regardless of either of our points, the RPG does things this way for balance purposes.

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There comes a point where training and experience comes together and puts that first shot on the bullseye everytime, but doing that is easier than putting 5 our of ten rounds into the same grouping vs a moving target.

 

... which is represented by the following 4 rounds requiring 4 Degrees of Success in addition to the general success of the attack.

 

Including the +20 bonus provided by Full Auto, the rulebook would call this a "Hard Test".

 

Regardless of either of our points, the RPG does things this way for balance purposes.

 

Certainly. I guess I just don't see it as "imbalanced" as others - or, if it were, I would rather prefer a solution like the idea bojan suggested. No idea to needlessly sacrifice realism where it can be averted. ;)

Edited by Lynata

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Maybe we shouldn't have been arguing then.  I don't see it as imbalanced either.

 

Let me put it this way, though.

 

Throwing a full six or so seconds of ammunition into one target will likely net you some accuracy if you can remain steady (+20 to BS as given in DH).

 

Bursting with the intent to hit multiple targets, as in walking fire from one target to another, is far less accurate (-10 in OW, though in DH this is still +20, even though it's more difficult)

 

Though showering a whole area with the intent of making a bunch of goons duck their heads or become a hypertension fountain spray is the least accurate (-20 in both games for suppressive fire).

 

If these were the actual differences (+20 for single target, -10 for multiple, -20 for suppressive fire) it would be cool, though it wouldn't do anything for the OP's situation, admittedly. <_<

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Maybe we shouldn't have been arguing then.  I don't see it as imbalanced either.

 

Let me put it this way, though.

 

Throwing a full six or so seconds of ammunition into one target will likely net you some accuracy if you can remain steady (+20 to BS as given in DH).

 

Bursting with the intent to hit multiple targets, as in walking fire from one target to another, is far less accurate (-10 in OW, though in DH this is still +20, even though it's more difficult)

 

Though showering a whole area with the intent of making a bunch of goons duck their heads or become a hypertension fountain spray is the least accurate (-20 in both games for suppressive fire).

 

If these were the actual differences (+20 for single target, -10 for multiple, -20 for suppressive fire) it would be cool, though it wouldn't do anything for the OP's situation, admittedly. <_<

 

I sent some of the easier suggestions to our GM. As soon as our character's have a chance to rest up, I am fairly certain he's gonna be throwing hordes of enemies at us in the future.

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Static target, man! That had to be a BS +60 test at least :D

 

And that dude aimed for a full turn, and seemed to brace as well!

 

But nice vid :)

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Static, inanimate target = unaware target, at least in my book, so +30, +50 with the full action aim, an d it's short range, so + 10 for that and +60 total. ;) +30 in DH since DH doesn't go over that. :)

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+30 in DH since DH doesn't go over that. :)

As per the Fine Errata, it does:

 

The maximum situational modifiers in combat should be +60/–60, instead of +30/–30 as described in the Combining Difficulties sidebar on page 197. 

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Static target, man! That had to be a BS +60 test at least :D

And that dude aimed for a full turn, and seemed to brace as well!

That is not DH bracing, but just standard way you hold rifle properly. Firing from a hip is for (bad) movies.

Point of post was grouping and weapon control at full auto and a fact that at short range anything coming at full auto fire is deader then dead. :)

BTW, that group @ 15m will give you about 2x1.5m grouping @ 100m, which, considering average human can be represented by ~175x40cm rectangle will give you ~25% hits at 100m... Not really presentable in DH as accuaracy does not drop gradually but by range brackets but quite impresive...

 

In real combat most shots fired miss as small arms are (in ordinary infantry use) 99% of times used for suppression, killing someone with them is just a bonus. This is not really presentable in DH due the time issues, none wants for a firefight to last 20+ rounds.

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Firing from a hip is for (bad) movies.

 

And Codex art.  :P

 

46065804.jpg

 

That being said, this reminds me of GW's Inquisitor game, which did in fact assume you were hip-firing if you did not use the Aim action for its stacking +20 bonus:

 

"One aiming action shows the character raising his weapon to eye level before shooting (as opposed to firing from the hip).
Two aiming actions represents the character bringing his weapon up and then spending a couple of seconds aiming at the target.
Three or more aiming actions show that the character is tracking the target over quite a period of time (in combat conditions, even ten seconds is a long time!)."
 
I'm not exactly sure whether the standard attack in DH is meant to be "from the hip" as well or if the game just assumes that the character would raise their gun to eye-level automatically, but I feel there would be potential in exploring this mechanic a bit further. For example, if "hip-firing" were standard, you could have characters assume a stance where they advance with the gun raised to eye-level, in essence having the first Aim action prepared for immediate use, but simultaneously sacrificing a bit of Movement speed. Or characters with auto-senses and appropriately linked weapons would gain the first Aim bonus immediately even if they are hip-firing as they are essentially having the gun's camera projected into their helmet. Stuff like that.
 
Probably a bit off-topic, and I'm also a bit concerned this would lead to an inflation of BS bonuses, but it was fun pondering the possibilities for a moment.  ^_^
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Hip firing would only make sense if no character had any weapon training whatsoever, it is not done by anyone with even half clue, period*.

Considering round lasts 5 seconds, firing only single shot in 2.5 sec w/o any aiming is fantastically slow, slower then was expected from well trained WW1 infantryman with bolt-action rifle. Google "Mad Minute".

With semi-automatic gun and no need to manually operate rifle it would be practical aimed fire rate.

I am no way great shooter, but I fired M1 Carbine @ 50m at torso target, dumping whole 15 rounds mag, hitting 14/15 rounds in about 25-30 sec. That is ~1.5-2 sec/round.

Add laser weapons that have no recoil or negligible recoil and whole "shooting from hip" makes no sense at all.

Hip shooting would be -20 to hit at least, unless you have laser pointer/advanced targeting.

 

*There is a thing called "marching fire" in early 20th century where soldiers fired rifles from a hip as they marched deliberately toward objective**. Rifle was fired at the moment your left foot hit a ground. It was supposed to work due the:

- mass of fire (whole platoon firing at same time)

- being intended mainly as suppression fire (as is most small arms fire in military environment)

Needless to say it died out in harsh realities of WW1 (US insisted on it for a few years more, Browning BAR was supposed to be fired that way originally).

 

**DKOK, Mordian or Pretorian squad made that way would look kick-ass on tabletop. :)

Edited by bojan
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yeah, real life marksmaship doesn't have much to do with RPG combat.  It's all what kind of apporximations the developers make in how they try to balance it all.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, if people want to add as much realism as possible to their games, i think that's awesome (done it quite a bit myself), but the rules point toward thematic reasons.

 

They have a talent called Hip Shooting, but it's basically just an ability to make your full tactical move and snap off a single shot.  It's an awesome talent (especially if you rock a grenade launcher), but i think they nearly nailed it with a small paragraph in deathwatch where they say you can Semi or Full-Auto while doing a half move, but at -20 and -30 respectively.

 

Now, in Only War, you can half move and sill autofire, but at +0 or -10.  They're just moving the numbers around and making it work more elegantly, rather than realistically.  I think it works find in the current iteration.

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As others said, with a -10 of BC/OW/DH2e, full round aim +20, short range +10 (though getting closer to point blank) and a stationary target (treating as unaware) for +30 = +50 to an average BS of 30 let's say to keep it simple.

 

He rolled low and got a lot of rounds on target.

 

Now let's see it where the other guy is moving, using cover while our shooter is trying to do the same and then add in your own team and their team and everyone is firing off ammo and you try to keep yourself aware of your surroundings and co-ordinate with your team.

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Just poiting out that if you do adopt the BC/OW rules in DH, it will have ripple effects all through the system. In particular, those modifiers were designed for a system in which all attacks are a half action (other than All-Out Attacks, which are +30 BTW for those who don't know, and Charge, which is +20). Meaning that they are meant to be often used in conjunstion with a Half-Action Aim.

 

It will also make standard ranged attacks more accurate than standard melee attacks, which will require you to shift over how swift and lightning attack work to maintain balance. Etc.

 

So it's really harder to do than at first appears.

Edited by bogi_khaosa
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Well, I never saw the issue of taking over the modifiers and half actions for melee and ranged. I assumed that would be taken over fully.

 

Otherwise for people who just want a more balanced full auto, I would include a half aim in the BC/OW modifiers and leave it as a full action (+10, +0).

 

That said, I love the greater flexibility the half action gives.

Edited by Cymbel
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You can; I'm just saying  you'll need to change how multiple attack works and how various talents work etc. etc. ayb e how pistols work in melee. A lot of stuff.

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