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ColArana

Equipment imbalance

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Equally, as previously mentioned, these are not significant numbers of opponents. Look in most of the missions I've seen and the opponents are something like "one-to-two per acolyte" when you want to give them a challenging fight. In both of these cases you were outnumbering the opposition - which generally means that the acolyte who acts first (i.e. assassins) will steal the show.

 

True enough, our GM seems to prefer throwing average to tough guys at us on average. He did throw one horde encounter at us in the past (the assassin took down their boss and spent the rest of the combat waving his decapitated head around trying to scare the others off). Though part of this is that our characters tend to try and even the scales when we can. Especially in this particular mission where our GM has stressed picking our fights carefully (as we're inside an enemy stronghold. Pick the wrong fight and it won't just be a dozen rebels we fight, it'll be a hundred.)

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Sorry, i ment Feint to negate his dodge/parry, then club him in a soft spot with a stun weapon. Should stun him long enough to really get the drop on him.

Edit: Fainting and playing 'possum should work too.

Edited by segara82
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Faint...

 

I hate it when they do that  :rolleyes:

 

 

Happens quite often in Dark Heresy with early level characters. The group of acolytes I GM for, at the end of the last mission, kicked in a door and charged through, weapons snapping out in each direction 'Charlies Angels' fashion with a triumphant "Ha-ha!"...

 

aside from one of them, who charged through, struck a pose, got a good look at the Slaught on the other side of the door (minus person suit for the first time) and fainted unconcious for the rest of the battle.

 

The guardsman leading the team looks back at her, turns to face the Slaught and shrugs.

"Sorry. She's new."

 

 

 

 

True enough, our GM seems to prefer throwing average to tough guys at us on average. He did throw one horde encounter at us in the past (the assassin took down their boss and spent the rest of the combat waving his decapitated head around trying to scare the others off). Though part of this is that our characters tend to try and even the scales when we can. Especially in this particular mission where our GM has stressed picking our fights carefully (as we're inside an enemy stronghold. Pick the wrong fight and it won't just be a dozen rebels we fight, it'll be a hundred.)

 

 

As well you should. Dark Heresy isn't really a combat RPG in the way Deathwatch or Only War is. But what I mean is that there is a significant difference between three opponents and five; because (most of the time) the acolytes will go first and will either kill, pin, trap in melee or otherwise suppress the opponent they choose to engage, a significant measure of the challenge in an encounter is the number of opponents there are in excess of the acolytes. It doesn't have to be many to significantly change the dynamic of the game:

 

1 excess opponent garuantees one person gets a shot.

2 excess opponents more or less garuantees one acolyte takes at least one accurate shot

3 excess opponents more or less garuantees one acolyte takes a hit - since he can only dodge one opponent

 

etc, etc.

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Man, you're assassin is doing it the hard way.  Why sneak up when they can't dodge from surprise and you get +50 from auto-fire and an unaware target anyway?  I'd stay back and kill all three guys with one full auto burst if they're all within two meters of each other.  Especially with Crack and Mighty Shot talents.

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The only way to hit several opponents is with suppressive fire and it's -20 modifier.Even at point blank and unaware you need to roll rather well to get enough hits.

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The only way to hit several opponents is with suppressive fire and it's -20 modifier.Even at point blank and unaware you need to roll rather well to get enough hits.

 

You can allocate extra hits among multiple targets.

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Somehow I have a feeling that the GM has not exhausted nearly half the options possible to curb such behaviour. As has been pointed out, the act of simply getting into Point Blank range is and should be a feat all by itself. Sure, when combat has not yet started and you can surprise the enemy, then getting close might not be that difficult. That's kind of the point of being an Assassin. However, this only accounts for one kill, and if there were multiple enemies, the Assassin is now dangerously close to them.

 

Some more advice off the top of my head:

 

Enforce ammo and gear weight restrictions. Several hundred bullets are going to weigh "a bit" and, in addition to possibly being a cause for Encumbrance, may well negatively affect Sneak rolls. Magnus Grendel already mentioned this but it deserves to be said twice.

 

Keep in mind that ammo =/= ammo. There's no reason not to give enemy NPCs auto weapons as well, even if the Assassin will try to loot their ammo. This isn't the army, which means a cultist's or a ganger's armaments will be heavily personalised. Ultimately, your Assassin will have a hard time trying to fit the 9x40 mm slugs of Johnny Cawdor's customised AX-22 Imperator Longrifle or the caseless 6x35mm rounds of Lady Z's prized Ebony PL-10 into the magazine of their Alcher Mark II Justicar Autorifle that only takes 8x50mm. This is "a galaxy of guns", and projectile ammunition being non-standardised is one of the lasgun's most important advantages.

Otherwise, next thing you know it your Assassin may well start trying to force pistol or revolver rounds into their gun. :P

 

And for the record, I don't approve of the newer games' changes to the Autofire rules - the idea that even the very first bullet out of the barrel has a 10% reduced chance compared to a single shot just doesn't sit well with my sense of realism. The argument against autofire should not be a reduced chance to hit anything, but a reduced chance to have all bullets of your salvo hit compared to firing them individually, thus leading to ammo waste and requiring a higher use of the Reload action. DH's standard rules achieve this well enough (though I have an entirely different idea for alternative approaches .. but that's probably for another thread).

Edited by Lynata
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I had a PC who would do this, a Scum who dual weilded auto pistols which were capable of full auto, she used to run into combat real close and unleash hell, we are talking two weapon weilder, full auto capable pistols, manstoppers, gunslinger talent, crack shot and mighty shots.

 

I introduced her to someone who had a force feild and a power sword.

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I had a PC who would do this, a Scum who dual weilded auto pistols which were capable of full auto, she used to run into combat real close and unleash hell, we are talking two weapon weilder, full auto capable pistols, manstoppers, gunslinger talent, crack shot and mighty shots.

 

I introduced her to someone who had a force feild and a power sword.

 

this would be great! ...Except that something like that would completely decimate our current party. Granted, enemies the PC's AREN'T supposed to fight, are a fun idea, but as our characters left off the last session fleeing for their lives from what my Psyker suspects may be a daemon, or at the very least a Beta level Psyker, the GM's got that angle covered.

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Full auto isn't perfect, but assume that the recoil is throwing off their shots and it is the cumulative penalty, instead of trying to work out each round.

 

Lots of lead in the air, harder to control it's spread.

 

Works well with: Close up (hard to miss), Big (hard to miss), suppressing (don't care if you miss).

 

Look at what the IRL military uses for full auto, to suppress and for heavy weapons support

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Full auto isn't perfect, but assume that the recoil is throwing off their shots and it is the cumulative penalty, instead of trying to work out each round.

Lots of lead in the air, harder to control it's spread.

 

I thought that's why you "only" get a +20 in spite of firing 10 rounds. ;)

 

Though, in fairness, I think the modifier should really depend on the exact weapon... The ammo waste is considerably bigger with the standard Autogun than with some other full auto weapons - such as the Armageddon, and that gun has +1 damage to boot.

 

Abstraction included, I think the DH version of Full Auto was a pretty smart idea. As hinted at above, I would try some changes to differentiate better between individual weapons, but I thought the basic idea was remarkably good.

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Look at what the IRL military uses for full auto, to suppress and for heavy weapons support

 

Please let's stop using real life to draw logic into DH.

I find it odd that untrained acolytes have a +20 to fire full auto, while trained guardsmen got a -10 for the same action;  Seriously, that change to me is/was ridiculous and only made to please a few people who, unfortunately I believe, were stuck with people more intrested into game-system exploitation than role play, and had an unexplained search/need for realism in a far fetched sci-fi fantasy setting.

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Untrained acolytes have a +20 to fire full auto, while trained guardsmen get a -10 for the same action in different games with different mechanics? This is a matter of puzzlement?

 

I originally hated the BC/OW change but after some experience I see I was wrong. It is a great improvement.

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One thing to remember: the skill, in Dark Heresy at least, is "Silent Move", not "sneak". This is not some generic "hide in plain sight" skill, that gets bonuses if you have concealment. It is the ability to move without generating too much sound. If the enemy is looking in your direction and there is no cover or concealment you do not get to use the skill. As people have said, reliably getting to within 3 metres of someone is unlikely, unless in perfect circumstances (heavy cover to get close by behind the guy, and then hope he doesn't turn round while sneaking the last stretch... oh, and none of his mates do either). Close environments present more cover, but also limit approaches more. Someone properly wanting to protect something is going to make sure the approaches are limited, so they can be easily covered, or that there is a lot of empty ground to cover.

 

Also, remember DH doesn't have many hard and fast rules vis-a-vis modifiers, combat exceptions aside. Armour and lots of gear doesn't give an automatic penalty to Silent Move, for example, but probably should do in most circumstances. Bits of gear bang into each other, you have less flexibility etc. This is entirely within the purview of the GM.

 

As another note, as it is "Silent Move", just because you fail does not mean the enemy realise you are sneaking to attack them. If they cannot see you (because you are behind a wall, for example) they will just hear something. This will likely put them on alert, or they might investigate the sound, but only if they have some reason (or they have caught the sneak-er in an exposed position, such as sneaking from position to position, or they have turned round and found him behind them) will they necessarily instantly presume they are under attack.

 

I would say one way to help regarding full-auto: change it to the pre-errata status of it being a hit for every 2 DoS like Semi-Auto. Apparently this was a mistake in the original printing by Black industries, but it would certainly help with the sheer number of hits, and further emphasise the waste of ammo.

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With a hit every two Dos for full auto, that would only fall down to a waste of bullets Or maybe an extra hit over the Semi-auto; really, with a two DoS/hit rule, full auto will be for nothing and semi-auto will be used all the time as you get the same results for less ammo wasted

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But there is still a reason to use full-auto: The additional +10 to hit. However, there is now a reason to use semi-auto: to waste less ammo.

 

One of the major problems at the moment is that there is almost no reason to use semi-auto, except if your gun hasn't got full-auto. It gives you +10, less than full-auto, and while this is better than single shot you can just get a laser dot sight and suddenly you are no better off.

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However, there is now a reason to use semi-auto: to waste less ammo.

 

But ... that's a drawback that Autofire has in every incarnation of the rules, being a cornerstone of the basic idea.

 

Yeah, if you only count every 2nd DoS (additional mathematical complexity, however small), you may have, say, only three bullets hit instead of five (assuming a roll of 50 at WS 50, +50 from Full Auto and Point Blank), but in the case of the autogun you're still going to waste 5 rounds even by RaW, compared to 0 if you had used a Semi-Auto Burst.

 

The drawback of Full Auto only really gets negated by those few Autofire weapons that do not have a high rate of fire - because the rule grants them the exact same bonus, thus making them notably more efficient (with the downside of perhaps not exhausting the full potential of your dice if you roll really well for once). That's pretty much the only flaw I see there, hence my houserule idea on making the bonus depend on how many shots you fire.

 

... coincidentally, how high are your players rolling all the time that this is such a big problem? Y'all make me feel as if I should requisition new dice.  :huh:

Edited by Lynata
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I know a guy who passes every -60 test with a nat 1 and the dice roller in roll20 HATES players.

 

Back to full auto, it boils down to. Change the "to hit" or change the "Hit per DoS"

 

Changing the DoS (1 DoS to Semi Auto, 2 DoS to Full Auto) is one way. The semi auto hits more, but you need better placement to begin with. Full auto recoil makes it harder to hit a target, but the more rounds in the air helps (to hit).

 

The reverse solution is what they went with in BC. And I can see why, however if your group likes one better, roll with it.

 

The real issue is that DH 1e full auto is broken. It has ONE drawback, which is ammo expenditure. That's it. It makes you more likely to hit them and more likely to hit them a LOT. In balance terms (which while IRL is important, balance is too), it sucks. It is awful, it makes any weapon without full auto, not as good.

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But ... that's a drawback that Autofire has in every incarnation of the rules, being a cornerstone of the basic idea.

 

Yeah, if you only count every 2nd DoS (additional mathematical complexity, however small), you may have, say, only three bullets hit instead of five (assuming a roll of 50 at WS 50, +50 from Full Auto and Point Blank), but in the case of the autogun you're still going to waste 5 rounds even by RaW, compared to 0 if you had used a Semi-Auto Burst.

 

The drawback of Full Auto only really gets negated by those few Autofire weapons that do not have a high rate of fire - because the rule grants them the exact same bonus, thus making them notably more efficient (with the downside of perhaps not exhausting the full potential of your dice if you roll really well for once). That's pretty much the only flaw I see there, hence my houserule idea on making the bonus depend on how many shots you fire.

 

... coincidentally, how high are your players rolling all the time that this is such a big problem? Y'all make me feel as if I should requisition new dice.  :huh:

 

True. I guess I am more used to seeing Deathwatch and Rogue Trader (where many of the weapons have that more efficient full auto you mentioned, and pre the errata in Deathwatch it seemed to be everyone got the full 4 hits with their Bolter every time) in play than DH, and those few DH sessions I have played never lasted long enough for the ammo expenditure to be that much of an issue. Combats were over before the guns ran dry and the campaigns didn't last long enough for the additional cost really to be an issue.

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Yeah... It's kind of sad the errata had to take it away - I feel the bolter deserves Full Auto.

 

My idea was to have each bullet in a salvo add +2 to the BS roll, which for the boltgun would have meant a +8 bonus.

In essence, you'd trade 1 bullet for a 2% increased chance to hit your target at least once, with the bonus of additional hits if you roll really well (1 per DoS).

 

Some weapons, such as the heavy bolter or heavy stubber, might even have a lower FA bonus such as +1 (for a total of +10 in a 10-round full auto salvo), representing their nature as a less easily controllable support weapon. This could be applied to Autoguns with a very high RoF as well if you feel it is necessary.

 

This idea would extend to Semi-Auto Bursts, too, by the way, in essence "unifying" both actions into two firing methods using the very same mechanic, differentiated only by the number of bullets you'd want to "risk".

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