Starting position template?

[Osoroshii 2,146]

I've seen players talk about using the movement templates to set spacing for a formation at the beginning on the game. Is this allowed in tournament play? Would a coustom template be allowed for setting up advance formations?

[Buhallin 4,563]

I've never seen that, but I'd be inclined to say it's not allowed.  You aren't allowed to measure anything unless a particular rule or ability requires you to do so.  Setting up is part of the game, and all the general rules apply.  So just like you can't pull out a random template to measure the gap between ships, I don't think you can use one during setup.

[Bazinga 24]

Yes the rules do allow a measuring device at set up, dispute what people may claim in error.

Tournament rules state "Players place their ships in ascending order of pilot skill as per standard X-Wing rules"

Rule book page 4

"To place a ship, its owner lays the range ruler straight out from his edge of the play area and places the ship anywhere that is entirely within the Range 1 section, facing any direction (see setup diagram on page 5"

So a ruler is used at the start to measure so there is already a way to measure the front and back ship in a formation. If your putting one ship behind the other.

Now the question remains are you allowed to measure ships side to side. Well all you have to do now is remember the distance from the side of the range ruler you want to put your ships. How much gap you want. Then set up your ship move the ruler and repeat.

Now if you want to start on an angle you need to pivot the ships. Your on your own to work this out.

So at the very least you will get away with using the range ruler. Because like Bulihan said above your allowed to measure anything if the rules allow for it.

Depending on your opponents and TO a custom template might be pushing it.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Yes the rules do allow a measuring device at set up, dispute what people may claim in error.

Tournament rules state "Players place their ships in ascending order of pilot skill as per standard X-Wing rules"

Rule book page 4

"To place a ship, its owner lays the range ruler straight out from his edge of the play area and places the ship anywhere that is entirely within the Range 1 section, facing any direction (see setup diagram on page 5"

So a ruler is used at the start to measure so there is already a way to measure the front and back ship in a formation. If your putting one ship behind the other.

Now the question remains are you allowed to measure ships side to side. Well all you have to do now is remember the distance from the side of the range ruler you want to put your ships. How much gap you want. Then set up your ship move the ruler and repeat.

Now if you want to start on an angle you need to pivot the ships. Your on your own to work this out.

So at the very least you will get away with using the range ruler. Because like Bulihan said above your allowed to measure anything if the rules allow for it.

Depending on your opponents and TO a custom template might be pushing it.

Personally, I use the WIDTH of the range template as a spacer when doing a box formation.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Boy, I'm not sure about side to side. 

I got custom range rulers done, which include a set of range 1, 2, and 3 rulers.  I use the 1 and 2 all the time during set up, but pretty strictly within the letter of the rules - I use the range 1 just to measure and ensure my ships are not too far out from the board edge, and the range 2s to do the same for asteroid placement.  

 

I haven't ever tried to use a template to measure the distance between my ships, but I don't think it ever occurred to me to try and set them that precisely in formation.

[KineticOperator 2,534]

Sure you can (IMO), and I sometimes do depending on the squadron I am running at the time.  The way the rules are written, you are required to measure during initial placement.  More, you are required to measure each ship in the same manner that you are technically required to measure for each target lock, even when you know at a glance that you are in range.  On the other hand, if you are using the same formation regularly you will quickly find you don't need to measure.

 

Obviously, the beginning of the game is the only time you could do this.  Still, this is your one opportunity to be truly precise so you might as well take advantage of it.  I have never had anyone object in the least, neither do I object when my opponent wishes to measure during initial placement regardless of whether my squadron setup had me measuring or not.

 

If my opponent objected I wouldn't find it to be important enough to worry about, frankly, and would just forego measuring.  But that wouldn't reflect anything more than knowing when something just isn't worth arguing about.

Edited February 10, 2014 by KineticOperator

[oneway 1,878]

The width of my index and middle fingers is approximately the width od the stand, ir a 1 straight template.. what's the difference if I use one or the other... I'm not figuring out a movement, just placing my ships.. one is just as easy as the other. If someone has issue with that I'm gonna say ... lighten up...

[Osoroshii 2,146]

The tournament rules say this:

"Squad Deployment Procedure

The following steps must be performed before each game begins and may be performed before the start of the tournament round:

"6. Players place their ships in ascending order of pilot skill as per standard X-Wing rules."

Line 6 speaks to this Question. So let's look to the rule book.

"Setup

Before playing, set up the game as follows:

"5. place Forces: Place each ship in the play area in order of pilot skill (orange number), from lowest to highest (i.e. the ship with the lowest pilot skill is placed first; the ship with the highest pilot skill is placed last). If multiple ships have the same pilot skill value, the player with initiative places his ships with that pilot skill first (see “Initiative” on page 16).

To place a ship, its owner lays the range ruler straight out from his edge of the play area and places the ship anywhere that is entirely within the Range 1 section, facing any direction (see setup diagram on page 5)."

Here we find it says nothing that you can't measure out your placement. We have an example in the rules where this measuring is not allowed and pointed out here:

choosing a maneuver

To choose a maneuver, the player rotates the faceplate of the ship’s maneuver dial until the window shows only the desired maneuver. He then assigns the maneuver to one of his ships by placing the dial facedown near its corresponding ship inside the play area.

A player may look at his own facedown maneuver dials at any time, but he cannot look at his opponent’s facedown dials. A player controlling more than one ship may assign maneuvers to his ships in any order.

Each selection on the maneuver dial has a corresponding maneuver template, which measures the ship’s movement during the Activation phase. During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up. Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads.

So here we see the rules clearly states "During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up". Only during the planning phase do the rules care if you measure with templates. So here lies a gray area in the rules for my question.

[Buhallin 4,563]

So here we see the rules clearly states "During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up". Only during the planning phase do the rules care if you measure with templates. So here lies a gray area in the rules for my question.

So if I, during the end phase, started placing templates down in front of my ships, you'd be fine with that?  It's not the planning phase, after all.  So I'll just do what I need before we actually start the planning phase, and it'll be fine, right?

 

There really is no gray area here.  The fact that there is an explicit prohibition on using templates to measure during one part of the turn does not mean it's allowed at any other part of the turn.

 

It's really kind of sad the number of people who seem to think it's OK to cheat in extra measurements, whether it's by the width of the ruler, outright using templates, or careful placement of a finger or two.  I don't care how you get the measurement - if it's outside of the allowed measurements - range when an ability requires it, maneuvers only when executing the specific maneuver - it's cheating.

[Osoroshii 2,146]

So here we see the rules clearly states "During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up". Only during the planning phase do the rules care if you measure with templates. So here lies a gray area in the rules for my question.

So if I, during the end phase, started placing templates down in front of my ships, you'd be fine with that?  It's not the planning phase, after all.  So I'll just do what I need before we actually start the planning phase, and it'll be fine, right?

 

There really is no gray area here.  The fact that there is an explicit prohibition on using templates to measure during one part of the turn does not mean it's allowed at any other part of the turn.

 

It's really kind of sad the number of people who seem to think it's OK to cheat in extra measurements, whether it's by the width of the ruler, outright using templates, or careful placement of a finger or two.  I don't care how you get the measurement - if it's outside of the allowed measurements - range when an ability requires it, maneuvers only when executing the specific maneuver - it's cheating.

I'm glad you're passionate over this not cheating with testing a move. So to your point, by the letter of the rules laying a template down as I fire with my ship is legal. The planning phase is the only time it says you can't measure your "movement" and yet I'm not even asking about testing movements but rather setting up starting position. Seeking out the rule for this is not cheating but rather avoiding a situation of not a clear rule. The rule on this could be a lot clearer if the intended purpose of the rule is to never have the template on the field outside the movement and activation phase. Injecting a rule where one is not written and enforcing others to follow that unwritten rule is in it's self cheating. I will submit my query on this issue with FFG. If it turns out the intended purpose of the rule is as you understand it, I'll request an amendment to the rules.

[Buhallin 4,563]

There's not need for an amendment to the rules.

 

Rules are proscriptive - they tell you what you can do.  They don't tell you everything you CAN'T.  Can I simply declare your ship destroyed?  I mean, the rules give you a couple conditions where it's destroyed, why can't I add more?  The rules don't say I CAN'T just start taking your ships off the board, right?

 

Again, rules tell you what to do.  You can't put a movement template down when you fire because the rules never require use of that template.  Same goes for the end phase - no need for measuring, you can't measure.  That's explicitly in the FAQ for range; if you think it's going to be different for maneuver templates - that you can only measure range at specific times but can use the templates as much as you want outside the planning phase - good luck with that.  Please post the response when you get it.

 

<shrug>  There's little doubt I'm more of a stickler than a lot of people seem to be, but "The rules don't say I can't" is pretty much never a valid rules argument.  If that's the best you've got, you're in trouble.

[Osoroshii 2,146]

I mostly agree with your stance on this matter. Rules do not need to tell you all the things you can't do but rather what you can. Perhaps the haze comes from the inclusion of the you can't measure rule at a specific timing in the game. Had the rules not mentioned a phase with the rule it would be black and white. If we except the rules tell you what you can do and nothing else why even include the rule at all? I'll be happy to post the response from FFG on this rule when I receive it. I did like the way you dismissed my point by making an even more outlandish point with the "I'm going to destroy your ship".

[Buhallin 4,563]

A specific prohibition at a given time does not mean that any other situation is fair game.  You cannot take an action while stressed - does that mean that you can then take an action at any time you want, as long as you aren't stressed?  Nothing says specifically that I CAN'T take an action whenever I feel like it, right?

 

I didn't "dismiss" your point - I countered it by an example which you may consider outlandish, but is just as valid as what you're trying to do if you read the rules the way you want to read them.  If following your interpretation leads to outlandish results, maybe there's something wrong with how you're interpreting the rules?

 

We have a firm ruling in the FAQ that you can only measure range when using an ability that requires you to measure range.  Do you really think that the same restriction doesn't apply to maneuver templates just because the rules reinforce that you can't use them during the planning phase?

[Bazinga 24]

I have noticed some players dont mind bending some rules such as not using critical damage tokens but when the rules say you place a range ruler down and people use this to align their ships the get accused of cheating. You can't try to have a moral high ground when not playing the entire game by the rules.

The rules say at the start of the game when deploying your ships you place a range ruler down so their is in fact a measuring device involved all be it in a limited form.

So if there is a range ruler on the table learn to use this and not a custom one and when your opponent objects ask what his objecting to, the rules or the fact your following the rules.

[Karnage1992 45]

I think they mention the manoeuvre template in the planning phase to prevent people from using the following logic

1. I can only measure range when called for

2. Declaring an attack calls for the range ruler

3. However i do not need to commit to that attack if I'm A not in a tournament or B outside of range/arc

4. So why can't I lay down the manoeuvre template when planning my ships movement???

I realise that point A people will argue with but my group is pretty much fly casual and don't mind if you check range of all possible targets to decide on best move.

[Osoroshii 2,146]

A specific prohibition at a given time does not mean that any other situation is fair game.  You cannot take an action while stressed - does that mean that you can then take an action at any time you want, as long as you aren't stressed?  Nothing says specifically that I CAN'T take an action whenever I feel like it, right?

 

So since a logical look at the rules isn't going to work and outlandish explanations are in order. I should take it that if you were told as a child you couldn't have Chocolate Cake for breakfast, this was understood by you to never eat chocolate cake ever again? This could explain why you feel so strongly that this is cheating as all the other children around are eating cake.... I'll wait on FFG's response on this one.......

[Bazinga 24]

If we follow the rules

Page 3 states how to set up

the rule book says before playing you set up as follows.

Page 5

This is when the game starts.

So why cant you measure before the game starts?

[nurglez 378]

I've played in a few tournaments and some of my opponents have used the range ruler to help them set up in formation. Some people also pre measure their weapon ranges before shooting. I'm fine with either to be honest. As I attend tournaments to have fun and fly casual rather then winning due to the strict letters of the rules.

I understand the issues here, but there is also nothing to prevent someone using their ship bases to ensure they deploy a certain distance away (place 3 ps1 ships next to each other, then move the middle one somewhere else).

[Richard_Thomas_ 326]

Hahaha...issues like this are the reason I'll never play in a tournament or with anyone other than friends.

 

You're playing with toy space ships and it's supposed to be a bit of fun for gods sake!

 

Does either the tiny amount of benefit you might get by measuring during deployment or the tiny amount of disadvantage you might see if you're on the other side of the table make it worth arguing about from either perspective? Really?

[Buhallin 4,563]

I have noticed some players dont mind bending some rules such as not using critical damage tokens but when the rules say you place a range ruler down and people use this to align their ships the get accused of cheating. You can't try to have a moral high ground when not playing the entire game by the rules.

 

Alas and alack!  The scathing wit of Bazinga has skewered me with my own hypocrisy!

 

If only I had thought to address this far more complicated topic almost a year ago!

[Buhallin 4,563]

So since a logical look at the rules isn't going to work and outlandish explanations are in order. I should take it that if you were told as a child you couldn't have Chocolate Cake for breakfast, this was understood by you to never eat chocolate cake ever again?

 

No, you can eat chocolate cake exactly when you could whether you could have it for breakfast or not - specifically, whenever mom said you can.  You're trying to say that not being able to have it for breakfast means you can eat it whenever you want, because you're only explicitly prohibited from having it for breakfast.

 

But whatever - you're obviously just looking for the answer you want.  Be sure to let us know what FFG says.

[Osoroshii 2,146]

But whatever - you're obviously just looking for the answer you want.  Be sure to let us know what FFG says.

On the contrary I was just looking for an answer. You never gave a definitive answer just your interpretation of a ruling. So as promised here is the response I got from James Kniffen at FFG:

"Hello Charles,

In response to your question:

Rule Question:

During the Set Up(placing the ships on the field), is it permitted to use movement templates or other forms of measurements to set spacing? This is not directly addressed in the rules. The only time it mentions not using a measurement is during the planning phase. Does this also mean I can measure out moves during the combat phase?

There are currently no rules that forbid using setup aids, so players can use movement templates or other devices to assist setup. Of course, the use of these aids should stay clearly within the bounds of good sportsmanship and shouldn’t delay the game. As with any tournament-affecting player behavior, we’ll monitor it for abuse; if players are bringing strange devices to gain a clear advantage over their opponents, we’ll forbid their use.

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen

Game Designer

Fantasy Flight Games"

So here comes my custom template to assist in set up............

[Buhallin 4,563]

Odd that he didn't respond to the second part of the question about using them during the combat phase.  Ah well, I'll take whatever information we can get.

 

A solid wrong from me on the setup measurement.  Feels decidedly inconsistent with the rest of the rules, but as they say, so it goes.

[Osoroshii 2,146]

Believe me I'm just as surprised as you are. I think it's odd to allow measurements during set up. This is why I asked the question here as the rules to me seemed to allow it. The interest in this rule was this opening formation of 4 ships. These ships would be set up almost like a throwing star ( all slightly off the edge of each other). I even seen it referred to as a folded closed box top. This formation is tricky to set up, but allows all the ships to use the same movement every turn or bank with out bumping. I was half on your side with me question and half not. I thought it was within the rules to use game pieces to measure out the placement but not bring in outside sources. This will at least give you a new topic for your blog over at Team Covenant. I also do find it odd he looked over the second part of my question as well. Not to start a new debate with you, but based on this ruling I think your allowed

Edited February 11, 2014 by Osoroshii

[Buhallin 4,563]

Honestly, I think that there are exactly zero players who would have thought you could use a custom-made setup aid.  That's such a left-field ruling that I wonder if James had his coffee before answering.  I'm also somewhat astonished at the speed of the response - I think you may have set a record for turnaround time on this one.

 

You're welcome to push the "I can use movement templates in the combat phase" if you like, but that's a bridge I think few players will cross without explicit word.  Given that this response explicitly calls out setup, its applicability as precedent for other phases should be minimal.