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MajorJuggler

TIE Defender balance discussion: not competitively priced?

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My real issue is the ship feels a touch bland. Optionwise it doesn't have nearly as many ways of playing it as the B-Wing, which was why I was hoping for a System Upgrade on it. It should be one of the most advanced Fighters in the game... and stat-wise it's good.. but it doesn't quite feel special. And I don't think people are going to have as much fun trying out things as with the E-Wing, or even the B-Wing... It's like it's trying to be a Rebel ship, without the customizability.

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I agree. The Defender didn't exactly make me excited, even with it's good stats. Hopefully, the Unique pilots make up for that. And hopefully some synergy with the included upgrades would be nice. A new cannon would've been nice as well.

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I don't know what kind of crap flying you/your opponents are doing but I haven't lost "a TIE per round" in more than 30 games.

 

Flying has nothing to do with it. If it did we wouldn't even be contemplating how competitive the Defender is without knowing its dial. But the odds are that three ships with three attack each will each get at least one damage through against a three agility ship unless they fire unmodified and the tie defends modified, but that can only apply to one attack and a tie fighter that does that will probably wiff their own attack. If for sake of argument the defender has a dial that is more on par with the fighter than interceptor then it has a clear advantage in a battle of attrition. It is unlikely to go down in one round to the 7 tie swarm but fairly likely to destroy a ship that all three get a bead on. Start by using focus tokens offensively to clear as much of the board as possible, then switch to defensive usage once you lose shields. I may not be great at statistics or give a womprat's backside about spreadsheets but it's pretty simple to me. That 14 attack dice are split among more attacks against the same defense and are much more easily lost to enemy fire.

 

 

Ultimately we can not judge a ship's use, competitive or otherwise, prior to knowing everything about it. People thought the Shuttle would be OP for its price until they saw the dial. Now it's recognized as useful in the right list but garbage in the wrong one.

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Executor, I'm not really sure you really read my post thoughtfully, because I already addressed most of these points directly. You should probably be a little more careful about labeling things "as fact" especially if you don't have anything else presented alongside to back up your opinion.

 

major juggler

 

in terms of the tie defender, yes it's barely more survivable than the advanced that never gets used. but there is a HUGE damage spilling difference between 2 attack dice and 3 attack dice as with 3 dice you are likely to be putting at least one point of damage through each turn on any given ship you're attacking

 

We're certainly in agreement here. Given that I have written scripts to calculate these probabilities (and many others), the point is obviously not lost on me. The "HUGE" damage difference between 2 and 3 attack dice, is (again - this was already in my initial post) in the range of 1.6 - 1.75 depending on your statistical assumptions on what kinds of shots are being made, and with / without focus etc. The only question is how much more expensive should it make the ship in order to be balanced, which is the central issue that you did not address.

 

 

 

fact 2, learn to play alpha squadron interceptors in a competitive list because you've clearly never done it before. or you'd see just how potent they are when flown correctly

 
You start with "fact" but then proceed with a command, so it's not 100% clear what you're trying to present. Here is the data that I am aware of:
  • In the top 18 Squads at Worlds 2013, there were ZERO Interceptors of any kind (let alone Alphas).
  • I am not aware of any successful lists at Gen Con that included Interceptors. I could be wrong here, and I am genuinely interested in the top Gen Con lists.
  • I am not aware of any of the national champions, or final tables, having used Alphas.
  • I am not aware of a single successful Vassal squadron that used Alphas. Sabers with PtL have been used in at least one squad (Saber Rattlers) with some level of success.
So, if you're trying to say that there are factual examples of competitive tournament lists that include Alpha Squadron Pilots, then a citation is required. If no such example exists, then alternatively, you could be claiming to be better than hundreds of the best tournament players, but this is also unlikely.
 

 

 

fact 3: there are still plenty of unknowns about the ship such as it's maneuver dial, pilot abilities and the new future upgrade cards

 

Yep, that's the TIE Defender's one potentially redeeming factor. We will have to wait and see if it ends up justifying its cost.
 

 

though it's unlikely that the defender is going to be seen competitively in a spam list of 3 of them; i'm sure you will definitely see many competitive lists containing at least one of them and maybe 2 (assuming the dial doesn't completely suck)

 
Yeah, it's possible that one of the PS6/PS8 pilot will end up having a really good AoE type ability that will allow him to be used successfully in a mixed squad. Sadly, pilot abilities don't affect the base ship, so we may end up in a situation where we will only ever see one Defender at a time, if that, in competitive play. Again, time will tell.

 

fact 4: it's not overcosted at all considering that 3 agility makes each hit point that much tougher to strip off

 

I just went through a rather rigorous analysis, quantifiably verifiable, that it is over costed, and your response is "its not overcosted at all considering that [it has] 3 agility". Really? That's it?  :P  Your opinion is presented with absolutely nothing to substantiate it, and does not address any of my initial points.

 

 

and if their dial is absolutely amazing and near interceptor quality you may even see competitive 3 ship builds

 

The Interceptor already pays quite a large price for its greater maneuverability, which has all but neutered it in the meta game due to turrets, so any further maneuverability is probably going to have significantly diminishing returns, at least as far as the meta game is concerned. Again, we will have to wait and see until everything is revealed.

 

 

Edit: Updated the OP while I was at it to complain about the lack of a beam weapon, which would have been really cool.

Edited by MajorJuggler

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Perspective #1

 

The best ship for direct comparison is the 3/3/3/0 TIE Interceptor. Start with an 18 point PS1 TIE Interceptor, add 3 shields at 4 points each, and you're at 30 points. The problem is:

  • The built-in cost of shields / hull should cost FAR less than the upgrade cost. It's not an effective way to spend points. So a PS1 Defender is an even worse way to spend points than a PS1 Interceptor.
  • PS1 TIE Interceptors are already not an effective use of points, and don't get used competitively with any apparent success.

If you go by Lanchester's Law, then the point cost compared to an Interceptor should go as: 18*2^0.5 = 25.5

 

Then nudge the cost up slightly to account for the extra hit points being shields not hull, and you're at around 27 points. Off-the-cuff math, if we call 3 shields + 3 hull to be worth 6.75 hull (about a reasonable estimate), then 18*2.25^0.5 = 27.

 

Just out of curiosity, are you factoring in that the shield points can shrug off crits, where as the hull points cannot? It may be too nuanced to try and do effectively. How much more would Minor Hull Breach be than a normal hit? dunno, but it can be important in the actual game play.  Even if you ignore the other ship/pilot crits, the 7 double damage crits are out there.

 

To me, having shields to ignore them is worth something. Not sure how much, but being able to not take double damage, or have other restrictions take effect for the first half of your effective HP has value.  So while the other builds may have more aggregate HP, none of those points can shrug off crits, which can change the dynamic of your squad in a hurry. 

 

Good discussion as always,

 

Rich

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Perspective #1

 

The best ship for direct comparison is the 3/3/3/0 TIE Interceptor. Start with an 18 point PS1 TIE Interceptor, add 3 shields at 4 points each, and you're at 30 points. The problem is:

  • The built-in cost of shields / hull should cost FAR less than the upgrade cost. It's not an effective way to spend points. So a PS1 Defender is an even worse way to spend points than a PS1 Interceptor.
  • PS1 TIE Interceptors are already not an effective use of points, and don't get used competitively with any apparent success.

If you go by Lanchester's Law, then the point cost compared to an Interceptor should go as: 18*2^0.5 = 25.5

 

Then nudge the cost up slightly to account for the extra hit points being shields not hull, and you're at around 27 points. Off-the-cuff math, if we call 3 shields + 3 hull to be worth 6.75 hull (about a reasonable estimate), then 18*2.25^0.5 = 27.

 

Just out of curiosity, are you factoring in that the shield points can shrug off crits, where as the hull points cannot? It may be too nuanced to try and do effectively. How much more would Minor Hull Breach be than a normal hit? dunno, but it can be important in the actual game play.  Even if you ignore the other ship/pilot crits, the 7 double damage crits are out there.

 

To me, having shields to ignore them is worth something. Not sure how much, but being able to not take double damage, or have other restrictions take effect for the first half of your effective HP has value.  So while the other builds may have more aggregate HP, none of those points can shrug off crits, which can change the dynamic of your squad in a hurry. 

 

Good discussion as always,

 

Rich

 

 

Yep he did, he weighted them as I believe around 1.2 - 1.3 hull points due to the Deck percentages and crit chance.

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I don't know what kind of crap flying you/your opponents are doing but I haven't lost "a TIE per round" in more than 30 games.

 

Flying has nothing to do with it. If it did we wouldn't even be contemplating how competitive the Defender is without knowing its dial. But the odds are that three ships with three attack each will each get at least one damage through against a three agility ship unless they fire unmodified and the tie defends modified, but that can only apply to one attack and a tie fighter that does that will probably wiff their own attack. If for sake of argument the defender has a dial that is more on par with the fighter than interceptor then it has a clear advantage in a battle of attrition. It is unlikely to go down in one round to the 7 tie swarm but fairly likely to destroy a ship that all three get a bead on. Start by using focus tokens offensively to clear as much of the board as possible, then switch to defensive usage once you lose shields. I may not be great at statistics or give a womprat's backside about spreadsheets but it's pretty simple to me. That 14 attack dice are split among more attacks against the same defense and are much more easily lost to enemy fire.

 

 

Ultimately we can not judge a ship's use, competitive or otherwise, prior to knowing everything about it. People thought the Shuttle would be OP for its price until they saw the dial. Now it's recognized as useful in the right list but garbage in the wrong one.

 

Ok dude, I get what you're saying but… in this game how you fly has EVERYTHING to do with it.

 

Now I'm not sure what perspective you're coming into this with. But for your sake, my background is that I only fly Imperials. So far I haven't flown Imp v. Imp, so unfortunately I can't speak on that. However, what I can say is that it usually takes about 4 rounds for my opponents to put a scratch on my Interceptors. It's not just dice, it's how you plan your maneuvers and your actions. And of course the TIEs are going to modify their defense: that's the whole point of evading. But you can take all that out of the equation with proper use of boosts, barrel rolls and maneuvers. Three ships with three dice don't mean three craps if half of them are arse-backwards with no shot. To put it soundly, THIS IS THE REASON PEOPLE LOVE THIS GAME. Strategy, forethought and white-knuckle maneuvering beat flat stats and probability. Not all the time, true, but they're a much more complicit part of X-Wing's gameplay than in games like 40K.

 

Sorry about the 'crap flying' comment, that may have been a bit hasty. But the idea of someone flying Imperials and not making the most out of their maneuverability to keep from being reduced to space dust and background radiation irks me. Whether your original viewpoint was based on your methods or the people you play against, I don't know and won't try to speculate on.

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However he did the comparison with Interceptors, which is a fair comparison. I just feel that the Defender out of the 4 new ships is the one that doesn't give the bang for their bucks.. and I don't think an improved dial over the Interceptor is going to do enough to make it work competitively.

Edited by Rodent Mastermind

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Yeah, it's possible that one of the PS6/PS8 pilot will end up having a really good AoE type ability that will allow him to be used successfully in a mixed squad. Sadly, pilot abilities don't affect the base ship, so we may end up in a situation where we will only ever see one Defender at a time, if that, in competitive play. Again, time will tell.

 

Sadly? What's sad about it? Just because a ship needs to be used in a "mixed arms" squad doesn't mean it's bad. Honestly, while I respect the amount of work you put into mathing out the game I have to say you have some very, very odd preconceptions about what a ship needs to be able to do in order to be viable. what would make the Defender, or any ship, non-competitive would be if you put one in a squad and it didn't help, not that you can't or shouldn't make an entire squad of it. The Defender will be terrifying if for no other reason than we now have the ability to put a HLC on a true dog fighter rather than the "can sorta dog fight if you don't mind stress" B-wing.

 

Edited in response to That One Guy:

 

Ok I agree that maneuvering is important, but the Defenders are also Imperial ships and will also be using their maneuverability. As they are presumably almost as, if not more maneuverable than a tie that part is a wash. And if the ties are using their focuses to defend then they aren't using them to attack, which means they will most likely miss the defenders. If we assume that the defenders won't always have a shot then we have to assume the ties won't be throwing 14 dice a turn either.

 

I agreed with some of those assumptions but most arguments on the board, especially math-wing threads like this, only really seem to look at what happens if both squads have each other in arc at range two. So that's the scenario I based my argument on.

Edited by Vonpenguin

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The Defender will be terrifying if for no other reason than we now have the ability to put a HLC on a true dog fighter rather than the "can sorta dog fight if you don't mind stress" B-wing.

My thoughts exactly. I can't wait to rip those things out of the sky (more).

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 At least you addressed the fact that two die fired from two ships is less accurate than three dice from on ship but I always roll my eyes when I see people talk about total numbers of attack dice and health in a squad without regard for how many ships are sharing that pool.

 

 

I think you are vastly underestimating how much went into "at least addressing the fact that two die from two ships is less accurate than three dice from one ship". I am not aware of anyone who has built up as comprehensive a system as I have for analyzing combat probabilities, although I am always very interested in what other people have done too. 

 

That said, two ships with two dice will do more damage, on average, than one ship with three dice. Normalized values are 1 + 1 = 2 vs 1.6 to 1.75. So technically two ships with two attack dice are more accurate than one ship with three dice, unless you're defining accuracy as the standard deviation, or nth percentile of shots. That would require more analysis, and is slightly beyond the scope of the current discussion.  :)

 

 

There's one thing that you seem to have forgotten in your calculations, the fact that, until the first defender drops, they'll be averaging a tie a turn, thus reducing the number of shots fired against them while the ties are unlikely to down a defender in the first round of fireing, possibly even the second.

 

Indeed, Lanchester's Law assumes that the damage output linearly decreases as your squad takes damage. When the number of ships present is very large, then the piecewise integrals become approximately equal to a continuous time function. However if all you have is three ships, then this will not be the case.
 
So I broke out another model I made to look at squad vs squad combat. It's obviously not perfect, but it is a better approximation of reality than Lanchester's Law is. This one is actually simple enough that it can be easily implemented in Excel. I encourage you to try the same. I'll run through an example of 7 TIE Fighters (84 points) vs 3 TIE Defenders (90 points) to demonstrate.
  1. First, you need to know the normalized damage output of each ship, on both squads. In this case we could really refine that 1.7 number further, since we know exactly what ships will be shooting at what. If we limit ourselves to 3 base defense, assume that attackers have focus 2/3 the time, defense has focus 1/2 the time, and we use the Final Match at Worlds 2013 as a baseline for the number of shots at each range as our baseline (15, 23, 9, and 4 at 1 through 4 respectively), then the TIE Defender's relative damage increases to 1.9.
  2. Next you need to know the hit points that each ship has. TIE Defenders: 6. TIE Fighters: 3.
  3. Next, I run a "continuous time" model, rather than a round-based model (which would be significantly more complicated), where at the end of each time slice one ship has died. For example, in the first time slice, it takes 3/(3*1.9) = 1/1.9 = 0.526 units of time for the TIE Defenders to kill one TIE Fighter. During this time, the TIE Fighters do 7/1.9 = 3.68 damage to one of the TIE Defenders.
  4. You then repeat step 3 until all the ships have been eliminated from one side.

If we run 3 Defenders with 6 hit points each and 1.9 attack vs. 7 TIE Fighters with 3 hit points each and 1 attack, the TIE Fighters win. In fact, they still have 3 ships left, with a total of 8.2 hit points. And that's 84 points vs 90 points. And it's also without Howlrunner. If we spend another 6 points to get Howlrunner to make it an even 90 on both sides, then the results will be even more lopsided, since the Defenders will do less damage until the first TIE Fighter (Howlrunner) is destroyed.

 

Or, if we just make it a 120 point battle, 10 TIE Fighters vs 4 TIE Defenders, then the TIE Fighters win with 6 ships left, with 16 total hit points remaining. Yes, you read that right: 4 TIE Defenders, at 30 points each, will succeed in only killing 4 TIE Fighters at 12 points each. That's not very cost effective. 

 

So, Lanchester's Law isn't perfect, but it demonstrates that if there is a large difference in the relative figure of merits between two squads, then you can be virtually certain that one is statistically significantly more powerful.

 

What isn't factored in is how many TIE Fighters will completely "miss" their shots because the Defenders have better maneuverability. So lets re-do the numbers and keep adjusting the TIE Fighter damage downward until the two squads kill each other off with about zero ships left. In a 120 point matchup, this happens when the TIE Fighters only do about 0.69 damage vs 1.9 damage from the Defenders. So, the added maneuverability of the Defenders needs to make one out of every three TIEs have NO SHOTS AT ALL, every round, for the Defenders to just break even with the TIE Fighters.

 

That's very unlikely. And that's still before we add in Howlrunner, which will give the TIE Fighters a massive initial boost, that will then snowball through the rest of the match.

 

Any questions?  :)

Edited by MajorJuggler

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Yeah, it's possible that one of the PS6/PS8 pilot will end up having a really good AoE type ability that will allow him to be used successfully in a mixed squad. Sadly, pilot abilities don't affect the base ship, so we may end up in a situation where we will only ever see one Defender at a time, if that, in competitive play. Again, time will tell.

 

Sadly? What's sad about it? Just because a ship needs to be used in a "mixed arms" squad doesn't mean it's bad. 

 

 

My point is that (pending further reveals) it looks like the PS1 and PS3 TIE Defenders are going to be completely worthless, probably about the same way that the PS2 and PS4 TIE Advanced x1 are both completely worthless. That's at least a little disappointing to me. That it doesn't even have a System Upgrade or Beam Weapon Upgrade really detracts from it being a unique ship. It's basically just an overpriced Interceptor with some shields, so far.

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Yeah, it's possible that one of the PS6/PS8 pilot will end up having a really good AoE type ability that will allow him to be used successfully in a mixed squad. Sadly, pilot abilities don't affect the base ship, so we may end up in a situation where we will only ever see one Defender at a time, if that, in competitive play. Again, time will tell.

 

Sadly? What's sad about it? Just because a ship needs to be used in a "mixed arms" squad doesn't mean it's bad. 

 

 

My point is that (pending further reveals) it looks like the PS1 and PS3 TIE Defenders are going to be completely worthless, probably about the same way that the PS2 and PS4 TIE Advanced x1 are both completely worthless. That's at least a little disappointing to me. That it doesn't even have a System Upgrade or Beam Weapon Upgrade really detracts from it being a unique ship. It's basically just an overpriced Interceptor with some shields, so far.

 

 

I don't know about worthless, after all it will if nothing else provide a hard to kill, easy to get a shot with, cannon platform, expensive sure, but possibly even better with it than the firespray. And slightly cheaper as well.

 

Of course until we know the named pilots and what this "new maneuver" is we can't really see the whole picture.

 

One question though, if you are upgrading a tie to Howlrunner in your example, then shouldn't you do some other form of upgrade to the defenders as well? Assault missile, HLC, Stealth devices, something? I'm not really challenging at this point. I'm genuinely curious as I'm one of those people that was able to do mental math well into 8th grade and so got incredibly frustrated when I moved to algebra and had to actually write it out. Frustration leads to laziness, leads to lack of knowing higher mathematics :P.

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I'm just hoping for a boost and a system upgrade, something that makes it feel like a top of the range superfighter. But at the moment it's blander than white bread... I can cope with bland and competitive, or fun but not very competitive, both will get use. But Bland and non-competitive is a problem.

 

I love Interceptors, they are great fun to play, but the Defender looks like a snooze fest... and it's one of my favorite ship designs.

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I agreed with some of those assumptions but most arguments on the board, especially math-wing threads like this, only really seem to look at what happens if both squads have each other in arc at range two. So that's the scenario I based my argument on.

 

 

FYI, maybe you didn't understand my analysis, but it certainly did not assume only having range 2 shots. My goal here is to provide the most comprehensive possible* MathWing analysis for the community!

 

 

* I spend most my spare time working on my dissertation. It doesn't leave a whole lot of time for other stuff. So this is just a side thing.  ;)

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Thanks. I'm glad we have the Major here... Maths might not be the whole picture, flying does count. But it does help give a clearer view of some of the issue. The big number here is 1/3 of the Ties must not get a shot each turn. If the dial allows that, then the defender may be worth it's points. However, I can't see any way the dial can be that good. unless it has a white Stationary and K-turns.

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I don't know what kind of crap flying you/your opponents are doing but I haven't lost "a TIE per round" in more than 30 games.

 

Flying has nothing to do with it. If it did we wouldn't even be contemplating how competitive the Defender is without knowing its dial. But the odds are that three ships with three attack each will each get at least one damage through against a three agility ship unless they fire unmodified and the tie defends modified, but that can only apply to one attack and a tie fighter that does that will probably wiff their own attack. If for sake of argument the defender has a dial that is more on par with the fighter than interceptor then it has a clear advantage in a battle of attrition. It is unlikely to go down in one round to the 7 tie swarm but fairly likely to destroy a ship that all three get a bead on. Start by using focus tokens offensively to clear as much of the board as possible, then switch to defensive usage once you lose shields. I may not be great at statistics or give a womprat's backside about spreadsheets but it's pretty simple to me. That 14 attack dice are split among more attacks against the same defense and are much more easily lost to enemy fire.

 

 

Ultimately we can not judge a ship's use, competitive or otherwise, prior to knowing everything about it. People thought the Shuttle would be OP for its price until they saw the dial. Now it's recognized as useful in the right list but garbage in the wrong one.

Ok dude, I get what you're saying but… in this game how you fly has EVERYTHING to do with it.

 

Now I'm not sure what perspective you're coming into this with. But for your sake, my background is that I only fly Imperials. So far I haven't flown Imp v. Imp, so unfortunately I can't speak on that. However, what I can say is that it usually takes about 4 rounds for my opponents to put a scratch on my Interceptors. It's not just dice, it's how you plan your maneuvers and your actions. And of course the TIEs are going to modify their defense: that's the whole point of evading. But you can take all that out of the equation with proper use of boosts, barrel rolls and maneuvers. Three ships with three dice don't mean three craps if half of them are arse-backwards with no shot. To put it soundly, THIS IS THE REASON PEOPLE LOVE THIS GAME. Strategy, forethought and white-knuckle maneuvering beat flat stats and probability. Not all the time, true, but they're a much more complicit part of X-Wing's gameplay than in games like 40K.

 

Sorry about the 'crap flying' comment, that may have been a bit hasty. But the idea of someone flying Imperials and not making the most out of their maneuverability to keep from being reduced to space dust and background radiation irks me. Whether your original viewpoint was based on your methods or the people you play against, I don't know and won't try to speculate on.

Beautifully stated! An interceptor can easily outmaneuver anything the rebels have. People have this mind set of DMG , much have right away. Take a few turns with your Int and do some maneuvers, focus /evade , hang back , k turn .... Don't worry about shooting them. Just make sure they don't have a shot you. By turn 2 or 3 they will get pissed and make a bad move. Then boost into range one focus and throw 4 dice. Repeat.... Yes yes I know hour time limit. It's all good :) trust me. Just wait till aces.... 4 pushed RG"s.

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I don't know what kind of crap flying you/your opponents are doing but I haven't lost "a TIE per round" in more than 30 games.

 

Flying has nothing to do with it. If it did we wouldn't even be contemplating how competitive the Defender is without knowing its dial. But the odds are that three ships with three attack each will each get at least one damage through against a three agility ship unless they fire unmodified and the tie defends modified, but that can only apply to one attack and a tie fighter that does that will probably wiff their own attack. If for sake of argument the defender has a dial that is more on par with the fighter than interceptor then it has a clear advantage in a battle of attrition. It is unlikely to go down in one round to the 7 tie swarm but fairly likely to destroy a ship that all three get a bead on. Start by using focus tokens offensively to clear as much of the board as possible, then switch to defensive usage once you lose shields. I may not be great at statistics or give a womprat's backside about spreadsheets but it's pretty simple to me. That 14 attack dice are split among more attacks against the same defense and are much more easily lost to enemy fire.

 

 

Ultimately we can not judge a ship's use, competitive or otherwise, prior to knowing everything about it. People thought the Shuttle would be OP for its price until they saw the dial. Now it's recognized as useful in the right list but garbage in the wrong one.

Ok dude, I get what you're saying but… in this game how you fly has EVERYTHING to do with it.

 

Now I'm not sure what perspective you're coming into this with. But for your sake, my background is that I only fly Imperials. So far I haven't flown Imp v. Imp, so unfortunately I can't speak on that. However, what I can say is that it usually takes about 4 rounds for my opponents to put a scratch on my Interceptors. It's not just dice, it's how you plan your maneuvers and your actions. And of course the TIEs are going to modify their defense: that's the whole point of evading. But you can take all that out of the equation with proper use of boosts, barrel rolls and maneuvers. Three ships with three dice don't mean three craps if half of them are arse-backwards with no shot. To put it soundly, THIS IS THE REASON PEOPLE LOVE THIS GAME. Strategy, forethought and white-knuckle maneuvering beat flat stats and probability. Not all the time, true, but they're a much more complicit part of X-Wing's gameplay than in games like 40K.

 

Sorry about the 'crap flying' comment, that may have been a bit hasty. But the idea of someone flying Imperials and not making the most out of their maneuverability to keep from being reduced to space dust and background radiation irks me. Whether your original viewpoint was based on your methods or the people you play against, I don't know and won't try to speculate on.

Beautifully stated! An interceptor can easily outmaneuver anything the rebels have. People have this mind set of DMG , much have right away. Take a few turns with your Int and do some maneuvers, focus /evade , hang back , k turn .... Don't worry about shooting them. Just make sure they don't have a shot you. By turn 2 or 3 they will get pissed and make a bad move. Then boost into range one focus and throw 4 dice. Repeat.... Yes yes I know hour time limit. It's all good :) trust me. Just wait till aces.... 4 pushed RG"s.

 

 

I agree. Interceptors are amazing, as are A-wings. They ability to choose where and when you engage is critical, attack where they are weak avoid where they are strong. But again you can't account for maneuverability between two ships when you don't know what one can do beyond it's actions (Focus, target lock, and barrel roll in this case) and it's stat line. If you can't tell who'll have the positioning advantage it helps to assume a neutral one.

 

I never consider time limits in my theory crafting since I never have and am unlikely to ever compete in an official event. I'm also a status effect and turtling player by nature.

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