Ten Numb question

[VanorDM 11,599]

The important thing is simply to acknowledge the assumption you're going from.

That's true, and I think most of us believe that the way we assume it would work is correct, and is the way we play it.

But the rules don't really say one way or the other, so we can't actually point to a rule that says to do it this way or that way. That also means there's room for FFG to decide to do it differently then we think it should work.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

They could.  But we can't really base our decisions on how things work on the fact that they might come out with a seemingly arbitrary, illogical ruling down the line.  They've done it before, yes, but it's a bad place to start from - nothing we can do if they drag us back to it.

 

The only discussion I've found even remotely conclusive points to Kath's ruling in the last FAQ, which even I admit is a stretch.  It mentions that if she fires an Ion cannon (which will cancel all die results after handing out a damage and an ion token) cannot trigger her ability, if she rolls a critical result.  In other words, the ion 'negating' the die results doesn't count towards her ability - nor would an HLC, flipping a crit over to a hit when it fires.

 

The argument being made is that the ruling says "the defender must cancel the [crit] result via defense dice, an evade token, etc."  (FAQ p6), and draws a distinction between types of evade results, as opposed to the fuzzy wuzzy bit in the rules/example about all of the results winding up in some common pool where they are magically compared by a neutral arbiter or something.

 

So basically what they seem to be saying in the discussions I've found is that if the results are distinct from one another - an evade token spent is not the same as an evade rolled on a defense die, and they are applied separately from one another, that would tend to fall under the rule about the player doing the modifying (in this case, the defender) having the final say on how and when the modification is applied.

 

Which - and again, I grant you is a leap - would at least imply that the defender could decide how and where to spend/apply the evade result granted by the token, and by extension that the defender decides where the defense dice and other evade results are used to cancel hits.  I guess at the very least, it seems to be in the SPIRIT of the rules, which is that the defender gets the last crack at helping their defense.

 

I agree it would be nice if this were spelled out.  It's obviously not.  And I don't like making that jump either.  But we do have a lot of circumstantial evidence that evade tokens are in fact separate from die rolls.  We know with reasonable certainty that if Ten rolls one or more critical results, one of those cannot be stopped by a die roll, and again by extension must, to work the way it's worded, be able to be cancelled by an evade result OTHER than on a defense die.  Currently an evade token is the only such alternative I'm aware of existing in the game.

 

And we know combat seems to work Attack (defender modifies, attacker modifies), Defend (attacker modifies, defender modifies) and that evade tokens count, as per page 12, as a modification of defense dice.  Page 8, again, stretching a bit here, says "The [defender] can choose to spend the evade token later during the Combat phase to cancel one damage rolled by the attacker."

 

The defender can choose to spend the evade token...to cancel one damage rolled by the attacker.  More ambiguous than I would like?  Yeah, clearly.  But the wording of that sure makes it sound to me like the defender spends the token, the defender decides where the token gets applied.  It's not ironclad or anything, but everything sure seems to point that way to me.  It's a lot of circumstantial evidence, but to me it adds up.

 

And right now that seems to be the best we've got.

 

If there is a counter-argument for giving the attacker priority in deciding how and where his attack results are applied, I'd love (in all seriousness) to hear it argued.  I don't see any signs pointing that direction, though.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I don't see any signs pointing that direction, though.

I don't think anyone is. Myself and Dvor are simply speaking in theory, since you did ask to come up with a situation in which order mattered.

I don't think anyone plays it differently then we do. Defender decides on if it's a dice or a token that is used. That seems the most logical way.

But you did ask why it would matter so we gave you a case that in theory could work differently.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Oh no, I wasn't arguing -- you did come up with a scenario where it could matter, which even presses on a fundamental game rule I'm not sure I ever realized before they totally waffle on. I'm kind of amazed that's never been clarified and I'm trying to find some ruling I overlooked. As you said, I'm pretty confident based on the evidence at hand, how they intend that to work (granting we've had rulings come out if left field before), but the fact the rules seem to imply hit and evade results are matched up by an impartial third party genie or something is hilarious. SOMEONE has to decide in what order those get paired up and cancelled.

[VanorDM 11,599]

SOMEONE has to decide in what order those get paired up and cancelled.

Yes, and the rules don't really say one way or another who that someone is.

When the rules were written, and in fact until wave 3, it just didn't matter. Because it wasn't until Autoblaster and Ten that there was anything that changed the basic system of how evades, hit and crit results interacted.

Assume a X-Wing at R1 rolls hit, hit, crit, crit. A Tie Interceptor with an evade token rolls evade, evade, evade. No matter how I match the dice and token up, it just doesn't matter, because I have enough evades to cancel everything.

But Ten and Autoblaster change things, so now it does matter, or at least in theory it could matter.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

I might be able to get an official answer this weekend.

I'm polling some people who are possibly in a position to know, trying to get some consensus.  So far I basically got one guy who is in the camp that thinks "evades is evades" and thus even a token can't stop Ten from sneaking a crit through...and one guy who is in my camp which believes that the defender would get to kind of lay his evades out in the order he wants to, and then choose to spend the token 'last,' leaving it at the end of the row (so to speak) where it would still be available to cancel out that crit in the example above.

 

So pretty much the opposite of consensus, since one guy said "you're right" and the other one said "tokens can't cancel Ten's crit, question is moot."  

[VanorDM 11,599]

the other one said "tokens can't cancel Ten's crit, question is moot."  

To be honest I wouldn't be shocked if they go that route. Even though the text is rather clear I could see that the writer added the 'defense dice' and really meant evade results. It wouldn't make sense but I could see someone added the text in and thinking that it sounded better that way and assumed everyone would understand that defense dice = evade results.

[GroggyGolem 2,848]

Tokens can't cancel Ten's crit would mean with Marksmanship and at least 1 eyeball result, he would always hit, right? Seems a bit OP. I doubt FFG will rule it that way.

[StevenO 2,996]

Tokens can't cancel Ten's crit would mean with Marksmanship and at least 1 eyeball result, he would always hit, right? Seems a bit OP. I doubt FFG will rule it that way.

 

No.

 

Dice can't cancel Ten's first critical but tokens are still perfect capable of cancelling that crit assuming all of the hits had been cancelled first.  If Ten was using an Autoblaster for the attack that token could even cancel a crit first.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

The evade token gives you an evade result that works like the result of an evade dice. Thus, the only real difference is the 'origin' of that evade result (dice vs token). Evade results can be freely assigned by the defender to cancel hit results... There is nothing in the rules that suggests otherwise.The only 'order' rule in existence is cancelling hits before crits, so we may safely conclude that the defender gets to use the evade result from the token whenever he sees fit.

 

In my opinion, order doesn't really matters. To cancel Ten Numb's ability you only need to have an evade token, and enough total evade results to cancel at least one critical hit.

[Arthur Volts 83]

 

the other one said "tokens can't cancel Ten's crit, question is moot."  

To be honest I wouldn't be shocked if they go that route. Even though the text is rather clear I could see that the writer added the 'defense dice' and really meant evade results. It wouldn't make sense but I could see someone added the text in and thinking that it sounded better that way and assumed everyone would understand that defense dice = evade results.

 

This is likely the case. It's a 5 pt weapon where you need to be at range 1. I mean, it's okay, but there are better things to put 5 pts on. If it was evade results, it would give people serious thought on approaching a ship with this gun, attempting to dog fight it at close range. I'd like to see that kind of fear from a B-Wing. We'll see.

[dbmeboy 807]

While not an official ruling, we do have an idea how FFG will rule on this from the preview article posted here.

 

Per that article:

"Though the Autoblaster can only fire at Range “1,” it prevents opponents from canceling hit results; only evade tokens can quell the fury of an Autoblaster barrage."

 

(Emphasis mine).

 

So if the preview article is to be believed, "cannot be canceled by defense dice" does indeed allow for evade tokens to cancel.

[Replay 3]

I'm confused about this long discussion. I know that the master rules is "hit before the crit" this in a standard case is true for both dice and token. Another rules say that after attack dice, first roll the defence dice, second apply ability of attacker to modify o reroll defence dice, third apply ability, reroll and token defense ability. This means that evade token arrive always after the dice result and is read like bonus dice. The result is read altogether.

ATTACK: crit crit hit hit (no ten numb)

DEFENSE CASE

1a) blank blank blank + evade token = take 2 crit + 1 hit because the token cancel before the hit

2a) evade blank blank + evade token = take 2 crit because the dice cancel first crit and the token cancel secon hit

Ten numb say that you can not cancel with dice result one crit, so if the master rules say hit before crit, means that to cancel the crit with the evade token I need to cancel before all the hit. Nothing change about the example above.

If Ten Numb attack at range 1 with autoblaster an ATTACK of crit hit hit are uncancellable from dice because special ability of Ten Numb merge the ability of autoblaster.

DEFENSE CASE

1b) evade evade evade (no token) = take crit hit hit

2b) evade evade evade (1 evade token) = take crit hit

3b) evade evade evade (2 evade token) = take crit

4b) evade evade evade (3 evade token) = save

Different is if the attack with autoblaster of Ten Numb is: CRIT CRIT HIT in this case only the first CRIT (ten numb ability) and the first HIT (autoblaster ability) are uncancellable from dice.

DEFENSE CASE

1c) evade evade evade (no token) = take crit hit, because second crit is cancelled by first evade of dice

2c) evade evade evade (1 evade token) = take crit, because first evade dice cancel second crit and evade token cancel first hit

3c) evade evade evade (2 evade token) = save

I hope to explain well, I think that is not possible to choose where apply the effect of evade token, you need to follow always the same rules for dice and token.

[StevenO 2,996]

Replay, I'll tell you that you have it wrong when it comes to Autoblaster.  When Autoblaster is making the attacks a [crit] result can be cancelled before a [hit] result.  If the attack is [crit] [hit] [hit] then an Evade Token can still cancel the [crit] because Autoblaster changes how dice can be cancelled.

 

If Ten uses an Autoblaster and get's [crit] [crit] the results are a bit tricky.  One of those [crit] result can not be cancelled by [evade] dice rolls but the other one can.  This leaves one [crit] result available to be cancelled by any Evade tokens a ship may have.

[LemonheadPrime 88]

Yep so basically roll his attack, kind of set one crit off to the side.  He rolls defense, uses those to cancel out hits, followed by any OTHER crits.  If he has an evade token and the only damage result remaining is the crit affected by his ability, you may then negate it with the evade token.

 

Why would the defender have to cancel every other crit with dice, before being allowed to use his evade token?

If Ten Numb rolls 3 crits, and I roll 0 evades, surely I am able to cancel one of those crits with my evade token?

[StevenO 2,996]

 

Yep so basically roll his attack, kind of set one crit off to the side.  He rolls defense, uses those to cancel out hits, followed by any OTHER crits.  If he has an evade token and the only damage result remaining is the crit affected by his ability, you may then negate it with the evade token.

 

Why would the defender have to cancel every other crit with dice, before being allowed to use his evade token?

If Ten Numb rolls 3 crits, and I roll 0 evades, surely I am able to cancel one of those crits with my evade token?

 

 

Yes, you would be.  

 

Take another look at what CrookedWookie is saying.  He's saying that when Ten attacks (normally, at least I don't see any Autoblaster stuff in there) and he rolls at least one [crit] you can kind-of set it off to the side where it can not be touched by the opponent's Defense Dice.  If all the other dice results are cancelled and the target still has an Evade token that token can be used to cancel the [crit] that was set off to the side.  The token may have been used earlier, and if there were uncancelled dice would have to be used earlier but it could have cancelled out an "unprotected" [crit] result.

 

Generally, [hit] results must be cancelled before [crit] results.  In some ways this make Ten's ability less useful because those [crit] results are the least likely to be cancelled because they are the last to be cancelled.  If Ten rolls [hit] [hit] [hit] [crit] and the opponent rolls [evade] [evade] with the dice having an Evade token doesn't change anything as it would need to be used on the third [hit] before it could be used on the [crit]; if that opponent rolls [evade] x4 only then would Ten's ability come into play and protect a single [crit] result from an [evade] from the dice but because all of the [hit] results would be cancelled an Evade token could take out the [crit].

 

Just note that using an Autoblaster for the attack will turn a LOT of the above on its head.  With an Autoblaster attack [crit] results can be cancelled BEFORE [hit] results which does make Ten's ability relevant more often but keeps it far from completely unavoidable.

[Replay 3]

Sorry but with my english I don't understand your last phrase about Ten Numb + Autoblaster.

With this configuration Crit hit hit are uncancellable from any dice result, only special ability and evade token can cancel result. The first evade token cancel a CRIT in according with the post above. This because I read the card so:

Attack 1 ship. Your HIT results cannot be cancelled by defense dice. The defender may cancel CRIT result before HIT results. 1 of your CRIT results cannot be cancelled by defense dice.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Sorry but with my english I don't understand your last phrase about Ten Numb + Autoblaster.

With this configuration Crit hit hit are uncancellable from any dice result, only special ability and evade token can cancel result. The first evade token cancel a CRIT in according with the post above. This because I read the card so:

Attack 1 ship. Your HIT results cannot be cancelled by defense dice. The defender may cancel CRIT result before HIT results. 1 of your CRIT results cannot be cancelled by defense dice.

Ten Numb's ability applies to only a single critical hit result.  So if you roll (for example) 1 crit and 2 hits, none of them can be canceled by dice, but if the target has an evade token he could choose to cancel either a hit or a crit.

 

If you rolled 2 crits and one hit, the Autoblaster makes the hit uncancellable, and Ten makes one crit uncancellable, but the other crit can be canceled by dice normally.

[StevenO 2,996]

 

Sorry but with my english I don't understand your last phrase about Ten Numb + Autoblaster.

With this configuration Crit hit hit are uncancellable from any dice result, only special ability and evade token can cancel result. The first evade token cancel a CRIT in according with the post above. This because I read the card so:

Attack 1 ship. Your HIT results cannot be cancelled by defense dice. The defender may cancel CRIT result before HIT results. 1 of your CRIT results cannot be cancelled by defense dice.

Ten Numb's ability applies to only a single critical hit result.  So if you roll (for example) 1 crit and 2 hits, none of them can be canceled by dice, but if the target has an evade token he could choose to cancel either a hit or a crit.

 

If you rolled 2 crits and one hit, the Autoblaster makes the hit uncancellable, and Ten makes one crit uncancellable, but the other crit can be canceled by dice normally.

 

 

To expand on Buhallin's last statement an Evade Token COULD then be used to take out the [crit] initially protected by Ten.  The character could also use the Evade Token to take out the [hit] but Autoblaster lets [crits] be negated first so that is most likely what would be done.

[Buhallin 4,563]

The character could also use the Evade Token to take out the [hit] but Autoblaster lets [crits] be negated first so that is most likely what would be done.

 

Yeah...  I can think of a few reasons to take the crit instead of the hit, but they're all pretty much desperation plays.  An otherwise-dead ship with Determination hoping to draw a pilot crit...  MAYBE Fel hoping for a stress token, but that seems dumb.

 

It is your choice though

[Replay 3]

Ok, this means that I have max efficency by the combo when I roll HIT HIT CRIT if the defender do not have evade token this because there is no dice result for evade the shot

[StevenO 2,996]

Ok, this means that I have max efficency by the combo when I roll HIT HIT CRIT if the defender do not have evade token this because there is no dice result for evade the shot

 

If you have Ten using an Autoblaster and he rolls [hit] [hit] [crit] there is NOTHING your opponent's Defense Dice can do about it.  He may have other defenses at work but his agility will mean nothing.

 

If you roll that against a Cloaked Phantom you could even destroy it with that one single shot.

[Bilisknir 443]

Could of course take the [crit] if you have a friend with Draw Their Fire and a shield sitting nearby

[Replay 3]

The phantom is not arrived here in Italy, and a friends with DTF there is not because I killed before :-)

Thx to all

[DarthJader19 0]

Oh thank gosh I have had trouble with this trying to avoid this attack it has helped so much