Ten Numb question

[majikforce 21]

His ability says that your defense dice cant block 1 of his crits (something like that).  Does that mean an evade token can block it?  if so please explain how you would handle the order of events when cancelling damage and this ability is involved.  thanks.

[SableGryphon 2,847]

The text reads:

 

When attacking, 1 of your <CRIT> results cannot be canceled by defense dice.

 

The key word here is dice. So yes, an Evade token could indeed cancel out this crit. Note, however, that the evade token would have to cancel out any remaining hit first.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Yep so basically roll his attack, kind of set one crit off to the side.  He rolls defense, uses those to cancel out hits, followed by any OTHER crits.  If he has an evade token and the only damage result remaining is the crit affected by his ability, you may then negate it with the evade token.

[Khyros 4,236]

Yup, an evade die can cancel it.

 

 

Lets say he rolled hit hit crit blank

 

1) The defender rolled evade blank.  The defender can spend an evade token, but that would just negate the second hit, and the crit would still go through.

 

2) The defender rolled evade evade.  The defender can spend an evade token and negate the crit and take no damage.

 

3) The defender rolled evade evade evade evade.  He does not have an evade token to spend.  He suffers the crit.

 

 

Ten now rolls hit crit crit

 

1) Defender rolls evade blank blank.  Defender spends evade token and takes the 2nd crit.

2) Defender rolls evade evade blank.  The dice negate the hit and the first crit, and an evade token negates the second crit.

3) Defender rolls  evade evade evade.  Defender doesn't have an evade token and suffers the second crit.

4) Defender rolls evade evade evade.  Defender spends an evade to cancel the 2nd crit and takes no damage.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Yes it's normally agreed that when it says Defense Dice, it means the physical dice, so evade tokens still work.

In Ten's case one of his [crit] results can not be canceled by dice.

You must cancel [hit] before [crit] but there's no order required in what order you use dice vs tokens.

So lets say you roll [hit] [hit] [crit] with Ten and they roll [evade] [evade] [blank] but have a evade token.

They can use the two evades from deice to cancel the two hits, and then the token to cancel the crit.

But if they only had 1 [evade] and a evade token, they'd have to use the token to cancel the [hit] leaving the [crit].

[majikforce 21]

That's how we played it.  Thanks everybody.

[Bilisknir 443]

Note this is the community interpretation. Not official FFG FAQ or similar.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Ugh, note no such thing.  

I don't even know what it is he's objecting to, but it really doesn't matter.  This is literally the only way Ten Numb's ability makes any sense, or works.  The rules make it very clear that there are only two ways currently to avoid damage: defense dice, and evade tokens.

 

Ten Numb's ability states that one of his critical damage results "cannot be cancelled by defense dice."  There are only two ways to cancel damage.  If he was immune to both of them, the "by defense dice" bit wouldn't be necessary, it would just say "cannot be cancelled," period, full stop.

 

Ipso facto...

Edited February 7, 2014 by CrookedWookie

[VanorDM 11,599]

I don't even know what it is he's objecting to, but it really doesn't matter.

I agree... But I'm guessing he is trying to debate that a evade result from a dice or token is the same thing and completely interchangeable, so Ten's ability like Autoblaster works for both tokens and dice.

Of course this seems pretty flimsy on it's face, since both say Dice, and not results. Seems pretty cut and dry that FFG meant exactly what they said, and RAW doesn't leave any room for other interpretations. But given FFG's track record I will admit I wouldn't be completely shocked if they put a FAQ that said that Ten and Autoblaster work on tokens as well as dice...

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Anything is possible with them, yeah.  But as you said; there's only one way it makes sense until that happens, and if they wanted it to work on tokens they could have just said "cannot be cancelled," period.

 

Doesn't help that they ambiguously word how tokens work depending on where in the rules you look.  In one spot it adds an evade 'result' to your defense roll, in another one it simply straight up cancels out a hit or crit result, distinct from your defense roll.  And I think in one of the examples they suggest representing the evade result by grabbing a spare die, which isn't confusing at all.

 

That said, there's still only one way his ability makes any sense as worded, which is that his ability can only be negated by an evade token, and only after all other hits and crits have been cancelled.  

[Bilisknir 443]

Oh I agree there is only one SENSIBLE way to read the rule (and this is how I personally play it). But as you said FFG have made some odd decisions in the past.

The question on evade tokens is do they cancel the first hit or does the defender get to choose which attack die they affect? What about the attacker - does he get to say this die is the one you cannot cancel with defence dice after the defender has used the evade on a different die? It isn't obvious, in the rules it states you an an evade result to the dice pool, but not how you differentiate those results once the evade token is spent.

[dvorm 1,058]

The question on evade tokens is do they cancel the first hit or does the defender get to choose which attack die they affect?

In other words: Is the evade token used first or last when comparing results?

That is a good question. Cannot find an answer in the rulebook.

 

Personally I'm playing it as defender's choice. Which means the token comes last. Cannot back that up with any rule, though.

 

 

What about the attacker - does he get to say this die is the one you cannot cancel with defence dice after the defender has used the evade on a different die?

I do not think that effects the final outcome. The last crit result can only be canceled by an evade token if one exists and hasn't been used earlier. There is no need to declare one specific crit result as different.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Well, hits must be cancelled before crits, period, excepting Autoblaster.

So at least in Ten's case that dictates your order right there. You can't simply skip straight to his set-aside crit with an evade token, because doing so would violate the fundamental rules of determining combat results. Nothing outside of Autoblaster gives any indication you can do so, and AB's existence as an exception argues pretty compellingly that you can't.

The order really doesn't matter. You either roll well enough to cancel everything but his special crit, which can then be negated with an evade token, or you don't. And if you don't have enough evade results to cancel everything else, the timing still doesn't matter, because his crit would get through regardless of his ability.

[dvorm 1,058]

The order really doesn't matter. You either roll well enough to cancel everything but his special crit, which can then be negated with an evade token, or you don't.

That assumes the evade token is used after evade results during the compare results step. Is there a rule which says that the evade token is indeed used last?

[VanorDM 11,599]

Is there a rule which says that the evade token is indeed used last?

No, nothing in the rule book or FAQ says anything about the order.

When it was written, there was no need, because there was nothing in the system that the order mattered, either you canceled all the hits or didn't. What order you spent the evade results in didn't matter.

Now we have Ten and Autoblaster that it can actually matter.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

It doesn't assume anything.  Hits are cancelled before crits, right?

Ten rolls hit, hit, crit.  You roll blank, blank, evade, and have an evade token.  You have to cancel hits first, period.  You only have two evades, regardless of what order they need to be in, so you can only stop the two hits, and the crit is going through.

 

You don't have the option of cancelling one hit with a die, taking the other hit, and blocking the crit with your Evade token, because all hits have to be negated first.  

 

The order is irrelevant there.  

 

Say he rolls crit, crit, hit.  You roll blank, evade, evade, and have an evade token.  Your first defense die roll cancels his hit.  One of his crits will get stopped by your second evade roll, the other crit has to be stopped by your evade token.  They're both going to get cancelled, so the actual order in which you do so again is irrelevant.

 

Give me a situation in which the order is actually going to make a difference and I'll try to figure out what the order would need to be to work.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Give me a situation in which the order is actually going to make a difference and I'll try to figure out what the order would need to be to work.

This works...

Ten rolls hit, hit, hit, crit. You roll evade, evade, evade, and have a evade token. In this case the order does matter. Because if you use the token to cancel a hit, then you can't use a dice to cancel the crit.

Now naturally you can use the 3 evades from dice to cancel the hits, and the token to cancel the crit. But that assumes you can control the order in which you spend your evade results. Which I think is a safe thing to assume. But the rules don't actually say one way or the other that you can. In theory, FFG could rule that the attacker gets to decide the order, or that tokens have to be spent before dice...

Edited February 7, 2014 by VanorDM

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

OK yeah Ten + Autoblaster is a combination made in headache hell.

I'm still not sure the order matters though, really.  You can cancel crits before hits, but still can't negate one of his crits with anything but an evade token.  You either have it to spend on his 'special' crit, or you don't.  

 

Ten fires an Autoblaster, rolls crit, crit, hit.  You're in the Falcon, roll an evade and have an evade token.  The die cancels one of his crits, the evade token cancels the other one, the hit gets through.  Unless you decide (because I think it says MAY cancel crits before hits) for some reason to use your die against the hit, take one crit, and then stop the 'special' crit with your evade token.  

 

Again, there, I'm not sure the order matters, because the end result is the same.  I still haven't thought up a situation where the specific order has any effect on the actual outcome.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

 

Give me a situation in which the order is actually going to make a difference and I'll try to figure out what the order would need to be to work.

Lets see if this works.

Ten rolls hit, hit, hit, crit. You roll evade, evade, evade, and have a evade token. In this case the order does matter. Because if you use the token to cancel a hit, then you can't use a dice to cancel the crit.

 

Well maybe I should redefine 'matters' - you're obviously not using an autoblaster there (he rolled 4 dice, apparently), so hits have to be cancelled first.

 

Let's assume you could do it in either order you wanted to.  Why WOULD you spend the token blocking a hit, if you could negate the hits with your dice and still stop the crit with your token?  I guess when I say the order doesn't matter, what I'm really saying is "well, if you really WANT to eat a critical hit, I'm not sure the game is going to stop you..."  

 

Now you could ponder how DTF interacts with that - I would think since it's NOT a defense die, you could block this hit and then let someone use DTF to take his last crit off of you.  I'm spitballing here but I don't see why that wouldn't be legal.

Edited February 7, 2014 by CrookedWookie

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

 

Give me a situation in which the order is actually going to make a difference and I'll try to figure out what the order would need to be to work.

This works...

Ten rolls hit, hit, hit, crit. You roll evade, evade, evade, and have a evade token. In this case the order does matter. Because if you use the token to cancel a hit, then you can't use a dice to cancel the crit.

Now naturally you can use the 3 evades from dice to cancel the hits, and the token to cancel the crit. But that assumes you can control the order in which you spend your evade results. Which I think is a safe thing to assume. But the rules don't actually say one way or the other that you can. In theory, FFG could rule that the attacker gets to decide the order, or that tokens have to be spent before dice...

 

But my point stands - if you were trying to do something tricky like LET a crit through, because you knew your wingman was going to take it in your stead, I don't see any reason you couldn't.  

If DTF isn't in play, his ability pretty much dictates the order, because the order is "do it so you stop damage from getting through," or "do it so you take a crit to the face," which will usually not be much decision at all.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Why WOULD you spend the token blocking a hit, if you could negate the hits with your dice and still stop the crit with your token?

No, no autoblaster. As to why? Because as I said in theory you might not have a option on how you spend them. The rules don't say anything about the order at all. Again I think it's safe to assume it's the defenders choice. But it is possible if unlikely that FFG could rule otherwise.

Imagine if they said attacker decides the order, they could then use that evade token on a hit so you had to eat the crit, even though you had 4 evades. Or having the same outcome, FFG rules that tokens have to be spent first, so the first hit has to be canceled with the token.

Now you could ponder how DTF interacts with that

I'd say the same as it does with any other crit. You still aren't canceling it, just redirecting where it goes.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Actually I think the rules do more or less cover that.  Be right back.

 

Ok page 11:

If a player wants to resolve multiple modifying 

abilities, he resolves them in the order of his 

choosing. If the attacker and defender both have 

abilities that can modify attack dice, the defender 

resolves all of his abilities before the attacker. 

 

And page 12:

If a player wants to resolve multiple modifying 

abilities, he resolves them in the order of his 

choosing.  If the attacker and defender both have 

abilities that can modify defense dice, the attacker 

resolves all of his abilities before the defender.

 

On page 12, it also makes clear that spending evade tokens falls under the heading of "Modify Dice Results" on the defense.  The attacker is only allowed to use his own means to modify the defense die results.  He gets to go first, but the evade token is a modification belonging to the defender.   The attacker has zero say in how or when it is used.

Edited February 7, 2014 by CrookedWookie

[dvorm 1,058]

Let's assume you could do it in either order you wanted to.

That is exactly the assumption which cannot be proven.

 

hit, hit, hit, crit, evade evade, evade, evade token.

 

Use in any order (defender's choice) or use token last: Everything is canceled.

Use in any order (attacker's choice) or use token first: Crit goes through.

 

The order makes a difference. The rules do not tell which order gets used.

 

 

Why WOULD you spend the token blocking a hit ...

Because you are the attacker? Serious: The rulebook says that both players act during the "compare results" step. If a decision needs to be made then which player decides?.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Actually I think the rules do more or less cover that.

But those don't cover the order in which dice are removed.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

 

Let's assume you could do it in either order you wanted to.

That is exactly the assumption which cannot be proven.

 

hit, hit, hit, crit, evade evade, evade, evade token.

 

Use in any order (defender's choice) or use token last: Everything is canceled.

Use in any order (attacker's choice) or use token first: Crit goes through.

 

The order makes a difference. The rules do not tell which order gets used.

 

 

Why WOULD you spend the token blocking a hit ...

Because you are the attacker? Serious: The rulebook says that both players act during the "compare results" step. If a decision needs to be made then which player decides?.

 

It's a figure of speech - if you don't start with an assumption, you can't test anything.  The important thing is simply to acknowledge the assumption you're going from.