Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
SableGryphon

Flight School - Lambda 102 (Outflying an X-Wing)

Recommended Posts

Sable, not to put holes in this series, but without asteroids this isn't a very realistic scenario, since neither the X or the Lambda could have easily done every single maneuver you outlined.

 

Also, I think the X-Wing player made several classic video game AI mistakes of continuing to simply chase the target around.  Those of us that have kited in WoW/any MMO know that's a bad plan. Had he done a hard 3 at step 4 he would have been much better setup to get a shorter range shot and setup a range 1 joust into a K-Turn at short range. Hell, even a K-Turn at the final step would have been really good for him since he would have likely gotten out of arc and been able to pickup the chase next turn..

 

Its not the speed of the lambda that frequently comes into question, its the turning radius as you explored a bit with the TIE in 101.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sable, not to put holes in this series, but without asteroids this isn't a very realistic scenario, since neither the X or the Lambda could have easily done every single maneuver you outlined.

 

Also, I think the X-Wing player made several classic video game AI mistakes of continuing to simply chase the target around.  Those of us that have kited in WoW/any MMO know that's a bad plan. Had he done a hard 3 at step 4 he would have been much better setup to get a shorter range shot and setup a range 1 joust into a K-Turn at short range. Hell, even a K-Turn at the final step would have been really good for him since he would have likely gotten out of arc and been able to pickup the chase next turn..

 

Its not the speed of the lambda that frequently comes into question, its the turning radius as you explored a bit with the TIE in 101.

 

You are absolutely right. Asteroids would definitely make this harder and/or easier, depending on placement. I plan to explore asteroids. This particular time, though, I wanted to demonstrate that this can be done. A lot of the time when people complain about dogfighting with the doomcow, the problem is that they try to turn hard. The lesson here was to show the value of breaking off, even if you are one on one.

 

There are things that the X-Wing could have done differently. And there are ways the Lambda could have moved to avoid or counter many of those. For example, in step 4, has the X-Wing done a 3 hard turn instead of a bank, and the Lambda done a 2 hard, it would have been much worse for the X-Wing.

 

LambdaEvasionTurn4Alternate.png

 

Again, your criticism is well taken. My goal here was not to find the perfect series of moves, only to explore one such possibility to get people thinking about different ways to avoid this fate instead of being paralyzed by belief in defeat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for posting this.  It makes me think of how I would react as the X wing pilot, which is not an exercise that I've gone through before in this case.  I'm going with the assumption that the shuttle moves first.

 

Step 1 - the X wing shouldn't go 1 forward.  As a rebel, I know that your two options are to stop and hope I shoot past you, or run like the wind away from me.  

 

If he is to go forward, he should do 2 forward (actually, it looks like he's at exactly range 1, so the X wing should do a 3 forward, though if the player was unconvinced he was not going to clear the maneuver if the shuttle stands still, a 2 forward is a safer bet).  If the albino rhino doesn't move, the X wing will just run into the back and no one will have a shot.  This is the same result as if he had done a 1 forward.  However, if it decides to run for it, the 2 forward brings the X wing that much closer to his target.  This still puts him at R3 for the upcoming shot (if he pulled a 3 speed it would be R2).  That extra distance would allow him to do a 3 turn in step 4 and have a shot, while being out of your arc.  But that's still not even the best move for the X wing.  

 

He should lead with a 2 bank to the left.  If it clears (I'm allowing for slight variations in original positioning) and the shuttle stays still, no one has a shot on the other, but the X wing is better setup for the next turn.  If it runs, the X has a R3 shot on the shuttle.  But next turn he does a 4 straight, which, the shuttle pilot knowing that, is forced to continue going 3 straight and boosting, but the X wing still has a R3 shot.  And then the X wing can do a 3 bank, and get yet another R3 shot on the shuttle.  From here, the X wing can close to a R1 shot, while staying out of the Rhino's arc.  Though that might not be advisable since the rhino could stop and you'd fly into his R1 shot, so a 2 bank should be good enough to make sure you have a shot on the alabaster.  One more attack should do it.  And this is where you seal the cake by doing a 4K, and now you're behind the shuttle, with another R3 attack.  Even if you need one or two more attacks, you're on his tail again and there's nothing he can do about it.  In a bit, I'll map this out and put up some pictures since I'm doing this all in my head, but the 2 bank to begin with changes everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Khyros,

 

If I am visualizing in my head what you are describing it would be great, if the Rhino follows the path Sable outlined, however once the X banks left it also invites the Shuttle to slow up and cut in on it. Depending on the moves the X-wing could wind up with the shuttle behind it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't want to give this input....but it may actually be a good plan to play for time (booooooooo).

 

A buzzsaw shuttle is 32pts, and most XW's will be less than that (bar say upgrade Wedge or Luke).  So if you can stay alive till the end, you can actually win.  I think this is much more preferable than trying to go for the kill (and in the above example, if the XW has 3 or more hp left. 

 

Between asteroids, and a possible distance traverse of 8 vs. 0, it will still be difficult for the XW to try and keep the shuttle in it's sights.  That is fairely stressful to try and anticipate each turn, especially if you are losing and you have 10 to 5 min left in the round.  If you can dodge in and out of asteroids, it may leave the best move for the XW right on an asteroid.  This will probably result in hasty guesses, and may open an opportunity to blow past him, or even turn in and try to punk him.

 

Again, easier said then done, but in the scenario above, you are trading 5 shields and 3 hull for a single chance of a  4 red vs 2 green shot to get 2 damage through.  If he lives, you are pretty much dead in the next couple turns.  Personally, it can work, but I think a lot more can go wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, it turns out that on turn 3, the shuttle is just out of range.  But by banking to begin with, the shuttle can't outrun the X wing, no matter how hard it tries.  

 

Step 1: Same setup

step1_zps10889af0.png

 

Step 2: X wing does a 2 bank.  It does not clear the shuttle's original location if it chooses to stall.  Meanwhile, shuttle does 3 forward + boost

step2_zpsd868de43.png

 

Step 3.  X wing does a 4 forward to "stay with the Shuttle".  If the shuttle stalls, it still doesn't have a shot on the X wing.  The shuttle barely stays in arc by doing a 3 forward + boost.

step3_zps561c0e5c.png

 

Step 4:  The X wing does a 3 bank.  Once again, the shuttle can't get a shot if it stalls.  But it does run out of arc (just barely).

step4_zps5b443c73.png

 

Step 5: Here, the shuttle can do a 2 turn, and if the X wing charges forward, there could be a death shot.  As such, the X wing should play for the long game, and 3 turn to the right.

step5_zpse730b727.png

 

Step 6:   From here, the shuttle might think he has the run of it, but really, he's just delaying the inevitable.  Remember, as an X wing pilot, you want to put yourself in a position where no matter what the shuttle does, he will not be able to shoot at you.  The shuttle is stressed, so it does a 1 bank followed by another boost to close in on the X wing.  At this point, the X wing could take the easy maneuver of a 4K, which will line him up for a shot this turn, but endangers him for the next turn.  As such, he'll continue turning 2 left.  

step6_zps08ac32fd.png

 

Step 7:  The X wing is now being followed by the albino rhino, but he can't turn hard enough to get the X wing in arc.  This would be the ideal time to pull a 4K, but this should only be done if one can be assured that he can kill the shuttle, otherwise consider a left turn.  The rhino has to start considering the edge of the board again, so he is going to be banking, but in an attempt to cut in on the X wing, he will be using 1 speed bank.

step7_zps9da07456.png

 

Step 8: Once again, here is where there's a head to head combat could go down.  But the X wing wants to avoid that at all costs.  There is no 1 move that will get the X wing out of the arc of every possible move.  If the X wing goes 1 forward, he stays out of the shuttles arc if he stays still.  If the shuttle banks at all, a 3 turn right for the X wing will keep him out of arcs, but a 2 turn from the shuttle will put the X wing at R1 of the shuttle.  They'll both be stressed, but that's still not a good thing for the X wing.  As such, my suggestion would be a 1 forward for the X wing.  This will clear his stress allowing him to focus.  The shuttle can do a 1 bank to line up a R1 head on shot this way, but at least it's mutual.  So, as I said earlier, if you're not convinced about the step 7 kill, do a 3 straight instead of 4K.  This allows you to continue the fight do a 2 or 3 right turn to keep it off your tail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Khyros:

 

In your step 5, I wouldn't have done two 1 banks. I would have done a 2 forward followed by a 1 boost bank in. That way, if the X-Wing K-Turned, I could turn and hit it. If it didn't, like here, I would have mooved three forward and bank in to open the distance. At that point, there's nothing you could do to keep me from turning towards you.

 

Still, It's awesome to see you guys thinking about how the X-Wing should move. Being able to place yourself in the shoes of your opponent is very, very important in this game.

 

I think I'll stick with the Vassal pictures if I continue doing these. They are easier to illustrate points I'm making.

 

The next one I'm thinking about talking about asteroids and how to navigate them.

 

At some point I should actually, you know, PLAY a game on Vassal instead of just using it for this.

Edited by SableGryphon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man, I want to turn this into a video series. I can do the voice acting/narration very well, but need to get some folks who are good at editing on board.

 

And then we move on to other ships, once this one has been exhausted.

I would totally be up for working on videos. I seriously considered it, but I'm not experienced enough with videos and I wanted to see if there was any interest with these first. People seem to be liking them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man, I want to turn this into a video series. I can do the voice acting/narration very well, but need to get some folks who are good at editing on board.

 

And then we move on to other ships, once this one has been exhausted.

As he most customizable ship in the game, this is inexhaustable!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Videos can be made pretty easily for you tube using windows movie maker, free, and audacity, also free. If you have video you can add transitions and synch the sound. I use photoshop or paint for visuals that don't move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To sum up; given a choice between a slow turn which will take you out of range, or a tighter turn which won't, take the higher speed manouvre unless you think you're going to get a shot. Which is good advice generally; turning round 'the edge' of people's arcs of fire sounds better in theory than in practice in my experience - since they can get shots even on the back corner edge of your base (a big deal for shuttles) and even the less manouvreable fighters can still pull a 90' turn.

 

I think this is a fair comment for most imperial fighters - either engine boosted shuttles or TIEs (especially interceptors!) who have a speed advantage over X/Y/B wings as well as superior numbers. Don't be afraid to disengage by running. As a rule, a protracted Koiogran jousting match tends to favour the rebels, who have shields and more guns. If you break off and scatter, odds are that when you close back in again, someone will be in a more advantageous position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Man, I want to turn this into a video series. I can do the voice acting/narration very well, but need to get some folks who are good at editing on board.

 

And then we move on to other ships, once this one has been exhausted.

I would totally be up for working on videos. I seriously considered it, but I'm not experienced enough with videos and I wanted to see if there was any interest with these first. People seem to be liking them.

 

 

This would be a hoot, have someone in an imperial uniform giving the lecture, while a couple guys in TIE flight suits sit and listen intently... occasionally asking a question. 

 

Would be funny to watch.. if it added some humor to it.. and fun to do.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK.. as a fun quick build for the training day events.. take the kids out and see if they survive.

 

Flight School: Training Day

 

Capt Yorr +FCS+Flight Instructor+Engine Upgrade

Howlrunner

4x Academy Pilots

Edited by oneway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK.. as a fun quick build for the training day events.. take the kids out and see if they survive.

 

Flight School: Training Day

 

Capt Yorr +FCS+Flight Instructor+Engine Upgrade

Howlrunner

4x Academy Pilots

I think you would be better with:

 

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Sensor Jammer (4)

Flight Instructor (4)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

"Howlrunner" (18)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 100

I still think the Flight Intructor is wasted on the shuttle, since you only get one evade die. But it certainly adds to the theme of the list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could also just put Advanced Sensors on the Lambda and 1-bank into 2-turn surprise the X-Wing in one of those turns...

 

Well, now we have a different shuttle config.  Sable and I were discussing the buzzsaw variant.  I'll let him argue whether AdvS are better than FCS on the shuttle.  Against a rebel squad, I think they likely are.  But against an imperial, I don't think they are.  And against imps, I think the FCS is much better than the AdvS against the rebels (naked 3 attack vs. naked 2 defense yields .88 average damage, so most likely, gunner will never kick in to give the shuttle the deadly 3 F+TL attack.  Against 1 agi it is 1.17 average damage), so the overall config would be better with the FCS.

 

Maneuvers would be different if the shuttle had AdvS.  For example, several of the 3 straight boost left would probably be better as boost left, straight 3.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...