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Maelora

Suns of Fortune weapons underwhelming?

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I've really enjoyed 'Suns of Fortune' thus far, and am halfway through a review of it.  Lots of good fluff and some nice crunch (SPACE WEASELS!). 

 

But my players have looked over the weapons and have mostly been disappointed. Most of them seem cheaper and statistically-inferior versions of the basic models in the Core book.  There doesn't seem to be any reason a player would use them, unless they were so strapped for cash that a few hundred credits made a real difference.

 

They look cool, there's some nice ideas there, but it's a tough sell getting a player to use an inferior weapon.   They seem notably worse than the ones in 'Enter the Unknown', for instance, which either had better stats or a niche use. 

 

I'm not sure why, say, a selonian would go to all that hassle crafting a glaive when it's inferior to a vibroaxe you could get off the shelf for cheaper... Yes, there's role-playing reasons, but I prefer it when players aren't punished with worse stats just for role-playing. The EtU slugthrower rifle, expensive though it is, is actually worthy weapon on par with a blaster, and the wookiee bowcaster is a great weapon, for instance.

 

Yes, performance in combat isn't everything, but it feels odd that most of this stuff is simply a cheaper and underperforming version of a standard blaster pistol or rifle. My players were excited by the pictures and the descriptions, but the stats were so underwhelming, nobody is going to pick up any of this stuff (except the drall stun baton maybe). 

 

And yes, I understand that they don't want to make '+1 weapons' that are so good that nobody would want the stuff in the Core book. But there doesn't seem a lot of point in giving us new weapons if nobody will use them. And the 'cheap and substandard' motif doesn't seem really fitting to the theme of Corellia to me. I can understand the equipment lists being full of cheap junk on Tattooine or something, but not here.

 

What am I missing?    

Edited by Maelora

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Looking at the weapons, while a couple of them fall into the cheap junk category (CDEF pistol I'm looking at you!), most of them do not.

 

Lets take your example of the vibro-axe vs Selonian glaive.  They are pretty much equal at killing stuff (only differences being crit 2 instead of 3 and pierce 2 instead of 3).  The vicious bonus of the axe is nasty, and it's sunder ability can be useful.  But the defence bonus from the glaive could save your life.  So to my mind they are pretty much equal weapons, just one is pure offence while the other is more well-rounded.

 

The weapons bring more choice, not +1 to the table.  Heck, even the CR-2 blaster may look like the poor cousin of a proper heavy blaster pistol (1 higher crit and 1 less hard point to customise it) but it is cheaper, more available and doesn't run out of ammo on 3 threat.  I'd definitely stash a CR-2 in my ship's escape pod ("just in case") over a normal heavy blaster pistol.

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I see what you're saying, but Defensive 1 doesn't seem equal to Vicious 3 and Sunder to me. This for a weapon that's more expensive, and heavier.  

 

And I can't see anyone using a CR2 as anything other than a back-up.  

 

'Cheap trash' seems an odd theme for Corellia too.  I could understand it better if these were the signature  weapons of some backwater.  If anything, I expected the opposite - better weapons that were more expensive and rare. 

Edited by Maelora

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 From what you describe, weapons like the glaive seem to offer a basis for traditional weapons that a society might use, but does seem more intended for enemies than players except maybe for roleplay. 

 

I get what you're saying, but I dislike penalizing players for role-playing and picking their cultural weapons.  

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I see what you're saying, but Defensive 1 doesn't seem equal to Vicious 3 and Sunder to me. This for a weapon that's more expensive, and heavier.  

 

And I can't see anyone using a CR2 as anything other than a back-up.  

 

'Cheap trash' seems an odd theme for Corellia too.  I could understand it better if these were the signature  weapons of some backwater.  

 

With the base EotE weapons, people are essentially firing the same things at each other. A group of 4 minions with light blasters deals 20 base damage to a character's 5 with the same (if your GM has them fire as one like mine does). Lighter weapons makes sense as standard equipment for minions since it reduces their group damage from murderous without making them too little of a threat.

 

Your GM is not doing minions correctly....as a group, they only do damage ONCE.  As a group, they get more accurate, so are liable to hit more often and do more damage via more successes, but there is only supposed to be one roll for a minion group, and 1 damage value dealt.  If he wants them to all roll separately, then they should be just using their ability score for Agility, with no upgraded yellow dice.  They only get proficiency (yellow) dice when they act as a group, per the rule on pg 390 of the EotE core rulebook, under the bold print "Minions can fight as a group".  Not only fight, but any skill check is dependent on how many are in the group.

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. Lighter weapons makes sense as standard equipment for minions since it reduces their group damage from murderous without making them too little of a threat.

 

 

And these are in the 'Player Options' section, so it seems odd that the only use they might get is a) minions or b) desperately poor PCs who can't afford a proper weapon. 

 

I really don't want power-creep and weapons that invalidate the originals, but it feels odd to offer so many sub-standard versions here. Like they were actually afraid of making them too good. 

 

I remember our explorer wanted a vibrospear until she saw the stats.  It was worse than a vibrosword, and it was two-handed as well. 

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I haven't seen the Greive yet, but it seems strictly inferior to the vibrosword, that obtains a defence die and also can be duelweilded for some crazy tanking shanaigans. The duelweilding swordmaster is probably actually the only melee character that could probably go on even terms with a lightsabre.

Needless to say, defensive 1 is pretty poor choice, largely because yes it's balienced but I feel that it would at least have some sort of reach quaility to short range, to show probably how good it's reach is. Alternatively, make it viscious 2 at least, since it is a very nasty weapon to be hit with.

 

Though if it's a NPC weapon, thats cool, I'm happy with grunts recieving them. XD

 

To be honest though, I can see it just being treated as a vibroaxe, though in all honesty I never got why either option (Axe or anything large) is actually considered a weapon in a univerce full of blasters. Too unweildy.

 

 

 

Edit:

 

Yes, groups only attack the once. It's basically a way of keeping minons relivent, since it buffs the total hp and gives more yellow dice.

Edited by LordBritish

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I haven't got my book yet, so I can't strictly comment on the weapon stats. That being said, there should be room for lesser weapons in the game as well as greater ones. Lesser weapons may be the way to go for characters that want a weapon, but maybe because of their concept or funds available it is different choice. Maybe the difference between the lesser and standard weapons isn't enough because they aren't a combat character.

Having weapons like these also makes for better world creation. Maybe the characters get stuck on an adventure and only have access to these weapons for some reason. It isn't always about getting the characters the best or most efficient equipment. Sometimes it is about adding flavour to the world.

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And it's those yellow ones that make them so dangerous. So far in my playtests a squad of 4 Stormtroopers usually put a crit on one of my gamers every second round in a straight shoot-out. I don't know if its just me or fate but the first hit was a crit with a rolled 100 and another +10 for extra Advantage.

My players decided to be more carefull in the real game. No one likes missing a limb.

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Having weapons like these also makes for better world creation. Maybe the characters get stuck on an adventure and only have access to these weapons for some reason. It isn't always about getting the characters the best or most efficient equipment. Sometimes it is about adding flavour to the world.

 

Yes, if it was some grotty backwater, I'd understand that, but the theme for Corellian weapons being 'cheap and trashy'?

 

That just feels really weird. 

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Well as I said, I haven't actually seen the book yet. Are they actually described as trashy? Or is this your take because they are cheaper and not as effective? Corellia is a fairly industrialized planet (or group of planets including the others), is it not? Would they not have the capacity and wherewithal to mass produce things like weapons. And they are not a warrior culture, so they would probably go more with expediency rather than overall lethalness.

 

Anyways, hope to have my book later today so I can actually read up on this stuff.

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I wonder if the weapons stats are more in line with the thinking that many players deep into a campaign are now throwing a fistful of yellow dice? I mean, eventually you can only gain so much ground power-wise before a system starts to buckle a bit. If I were playing a wookiiee I'd want a bowcaster because ....wookiee. I think I could get over any slight math deficiency for the sake of character flavor. I totally get that most gamers are hird-wired against this, though. 

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I would always rather have lesser weapons, or ones with a neat but equal special effect than greater ones.  Otherwise you have to start worrying about power creep.  And once that starts, it is really hard for a game company to stop.

 

GMs can avoid it just by being selective of what to allow, but it is better to never go there in the first place.

 

I am looking at you RIFTS.  

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I wonder if the weapons stats are more in line with the thinking that many players deep into a campaign are now throwing a fistful of yellow dice? I mean, eventually you can only gain so much ground power-wise before a system starts to buckle a bit. If I were playing a wookiiee I'd want a bowcaster because ....wookiee. I think I could get over any slight math deficiency for the sake of character flavor. I totally get that most gamers are hird-wired against this, though. 

According to some of the Han Solo novels, the wounds left by a bowcaster are quite distinctive. That's not really a positive thing if you're a bunch of criminals trying to stay off the radar.

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I

But my players have looked over the weapons and have mostly been disappointed. Most of them seem cheaper and statistically-inferior versions of the basic models in the Core book.  There doesn't seem to be any reason a player would use them, unless they were so strapped for cash that a few hundred credits made a real difference.

 

 

What am I missing?    

You say mostly but not completely.  

 

I assume if they use Ranged(L) they are thrilled with the H-7 Equalizer, because it's pretty much the gold standard for blaster pistols now in the game.  

 

Someone else already commented on the brace of dueling pistols idea for their character.  3 or 4 of those would be very hard hitting and fantastic in a brief combat encounter, and honestly a reload maneuver isn't that crippling in combat.

 

The auto pistol in the hands of a high Agility/high Ranged (L) character in a gun career will be a low soak minion weed whacker in a pistol sized package.

 

I'm not thrilled with the rifle options and I was hoping for a reason to bother with carbines, but we still don't have that.  

 

I will agree with you on this, no one bothers with cheap unreliable guns for very long when there are better available for reasonable prices.  That goes for RL and Star Wars life.  In a developed, wealthy culture, no one would bother with cheap junk.  There's also little point of including it in supplements because no one will want to use it.  I get the whole 'it might be the best available' argument, but if you pull that too much with players they are going to get pissed at your table quickly.

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Maelora, I was under the impression that you were running a campaign without armor for your PCs. So, bigger would be really bad in your galaxy.

I saw the guns and stuff as just adding variety, and kinda fluff. I also think it's great that they didn't go overboard because optimizers would have a heyday with gear that was too good.

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Yeah, they don't wear armour,  It doesn't affect things by a massive amount, as armour is only 1 or 2 points anyways, and it's usually wise to avoid being shot by blasters in any event. 

 

I see your point in not wanting every new sourcebook to have better and better weapons, making the game into an arms race. My players were just disappointed they didn't get a lot of shiny new stuff.  <shrug>

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$50 says that if they release a mandalorian book there will be a nasty weapon set to accompany it.

 

 

i wonder if they will ever have the option of the dart pistol loaded with bacta serum so our doctors can shoot heal us from a distance like in that star wars online game, that would be an interesting thing for medics.... bacta darts and poison darts..... hopefully they'd never mix em up lol.

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I'm actually glad that this books averts the "new weapons are always better than corebook weapons" problem that plagues a number of RPG product lines.  Clone Wars Campaign Guide for Saga Edition was a huge offender with the specific-model weapons that were just hands-down better and less expensive than the core rulebook options, but even then WotC had to come up with a group of feats to beef-up the core rulebook weapons.

 

Granted, there are some pretty nice ones (Equalizer coming to mind), but a lot of them simply "different" and while not being as effective as the CRB weapons, most of them are less expensive.  The maligned CDEF Pistol is half the cost of a light blaster pistol, with Inferior only having a truly negative effect if you don't roll any advantages.  The HL-27 is twice the cost of a light blaster pistol, but has a better crit rating and provides a boost die on all attacks.  The SKZ only does a point less damage than a blaster rifle, but it's significantly less expensive, not as heavy, and just as modifiable.  The compound bow isn't the greatest weapon, but it's cheap and not as encumbering as a slugthrower, though you'd have to spend a maneuver each round to draw & nock another arrow (at least that's how I'd handle the weapon's Limited Ammo 1 quality).

 

But by the same token, cool new weapons wasn't the point of the book.  Frankly, I'm more underwhelmed by the lack of CEC-built light freighters in the book, particularly when there's so many makes and models to choose from.

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$50 says that if they release a mandalorian book there will be a nasty weapon set to accompany it..

Well, there is Dangerous Covenants on the horizon, so odds are we'll see some "nasty" new weapons there seeing as how it's the Hired Gun's splatbook much as Enter the Unknown was the Explorer's splatbook.

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