Isabel Mcguire + Oversight AI LOL

[AussieKSU 0]

Um, yea... can I....

 

Install oversight AI to instant rez an archer

Bounch oversight AI to my hand with Isabel Mcguire

Install overisgh AI to instant rez another archer

bounch oversight AI to my hand

Install oversight AI to instant rez Wotan

bounce...

rez...

bounce....

 

Did I just break the game?

 

Edit: Seems like oversight ai is no longer considered a hosted card, but instead a condition, so no, you cannot bounce it - can someone confirm?

Edited January 30, 2014 by AussieKSU

[CommissarFeesh 458]

Confirmed. You can't use Isabel to pick Oversight back up, it's no longer considered a card.

[Shockwave 177]

Does that mean it's in Archives and thus able to be memoried out for re-use?

[CommissarFeesh 458]

Not until it's trashed, no.

 

it's simple: When you install it, it stops being considered a card and starts being considered as a hosted counter. When it's trashed, itreverts to being a card, goes to archives like everything else, and is a valid target for retrieval from Archives effects.

[bhosp 0]

"What exactly does install as a hosted condition counter mean?" is definitely a "Frequently Asked Question"...

[Grimwalker 647]

it means exactly what it says on the tin. I'm struggling to come up with a way to explain it other than "when you install it, it's a hosted condition counter."

[Covered in Weasels 587]

The way I understand it, Oversight AI is a card while in HQ, R&D or Archives, but when it is installed it ceases to be a card and is instead treated as a condition counter. It's a very strange abstraction, but I believe it's necessary to prevent repeatedly bouncing Oversight AI and rezzing obscenely powerful ice

[Kael Hate 119]

...it's no longer considered a card.

Where does it say its no longer a card?

And better question, if the effect is supposed to be a counter and not a card, why does it need to be specified installed rather than just placed or hosted on the ice? You install cards not counters. The Rulebook even says "INSTALL: This is the game term for playing a card onto the table." Just because its text changed to give it the same trait in no way implies it is no longer a card.

Can you give me any rule that says that a counter is never a card or that if a card has the trait of being a counter that it is no longer a card?

If this is supposed to be a permanent effect applied to the ice it is en extremely bad way to design the effect. Can anyone show me another precedent where a card stops being a card? (and don't say Bioroid efficiency) One would wonder why the card has to be installed at all and not just go to discard leaving the effect on the ice.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

The card tells you to install it as a hosted condition counter. The card itself is telling you it's not a card anymore once installed. The FAQ entry for Oversight also confirms that it's treated as a counter while active. If you think I'm wrong feel free to get a ruling (rules questions link at the bottom of this page).

The reason it has to be installed is that you need to be able to easily see which ICE have the condition of being trashed if all subroutines are broken in one encounter. It also prevents you having more than three Oversighted ICE in pay at once (of it didn't have to be installed you could use Archived Memories or similar to get more in play).

[Kael Hate 119]

The card tells you to install it as a hosted condition counter. The card itself is telling you it's not a card anymore once installed.

Actually its not. It is telling you it is a counter, it isn't telling you it isn't a card anymore.

If "as a" changes something from being a card, does a card being scored as an agenda stop it being a card?

The FAQ entry for Oversight also confirms that it's treated as a counter while active. If you think I'm wrong feel free to get a ruling (rules questions link at the bottom of this page).

79 Oversight AI

• Playing Oversight AI does not give Haas-Bioroid:

Engineering the Future 1< for an install.

• Oversight AI is treated as a condition counter, and is no

longer an operation, while it is active.

• Oversight AI is trashed to the Archives if the host ice is

uninstalled.

Yes it does say that its a condition and a counter and no longer an operation but the FAQ says nothing about it no longer being a card.

One would also question why if it was a counter and not a card why it need be sent to archives and not removed from the game like all counters are.

The reason it has to be installed is that you need to be able to easily see which ICE have the condition of being trashed if all subroutines are broken in one encounter. It also prevents you having more than three Oversighted ICE in pay at once (of it didn't have to be installed you could use Archived Memories or similar to get more in play).

Easily see? so Femme Fatale doesn't require such easy vision but Oversight AI does?

[CommissarFeesh 458]

The reason it has to be installed is that you need to be able to easily see which ICE have the condition of being trashed if all subroutines are broken in one encounter. It also prevents you having more than three Oversighted ICE in pay at once (of it didn't have to be installed you could use Archived Memories or similar to get more in play).

Easily see? so Femme Fatale doesn't require such easy vision but Oversight AI does?

 

 

Femme was written in the Core set, and most people use some kind of marker for it anyway. I'm pretty sure if they re-wrote Femme now, they'd put a counter on it too (though Femme wouldn't be hosted still, so wouldn't be trashed if the ICE is installed over, unlike Oversight).

 

Seriously, if you think I'm wrong, get a ruling. The link is at the bottom of the page, it'll either confirm or contradict me, but then you'll have an incontravertible answer.

[player1524454 31]

If "as a" changes something from being a card, does a card being scored as an agenda stop it being a card?

 

To be fair, Agendas are cards, so something remaining a card after being scored "as an Agenda" doesn't necessarily mean something couldn't possibly stop being considered a card if it is installed/hosted/played/whatever "as" something that isn't a card. I honestly don't know if counters can be a card or not, but I think that it would be easier to prevent things like Oversight AI from being targeted as a card if they couldn't.

[Grimwalker 647]

 

The reason it has to be installed is that you need to be able to easily see which ICE have the condition of being trashed if all subroutines are broken in one encounter. It also prevents you having more than three Oversighted ICE in pay at once (of it didn't have to be installed you could use Archived Memories or similar to get more in play).

Easily see? so Femme Fatale doesn't require such easy vision but Oversight AI does?

 

It has to be so on the Corp side because Operations are never Installed. Operations are played and then they go away. The only place the Corp can install cards is in a Remote Server, protecting a Server (ice), or in the Root of a Central Server.

 

The only exceptions to this rule are Oversight AI, Bioroid Efficiency Research, and Currents. Each of them has specifically printed exceptions to the installation rules.

Femme is not an equivalent case because from day one, we had another program that was hosted on ice as a card: Parasite. It's obviously intentional that just because Femme targets a piece of ice, it need not be hosted on it.

 

And as far as easy vision goes, Femme says nothing about placing any token, that's just the convention that's sprung up to help people remember. I am within my rights to verbally say "That One" when I install it and then it's up to memory and the honor system to remember which ice it was.

 

The difference why Oversight AI can't say "that one" and then sit off to the side is that Operations simply can't do that because of their card type. Maybe if it were designed today, in the age of Currents, it would be worded differently, and it would live wherever Currents live while they're in play. But when it was designed, the only way for it to stay in play is to say "ok, for the time being, it's not a card, it's just a counter." Once it leaves play, the text treating it as a counter is inactive, and it turns back into a card to go to Archives.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

Good post Grim, but one small point of order

It has to be so on the Corp side because Operations are never Installed. Operations are played and then they go away. The only place the Corp can install cards is in a Remote Server, protecting a Server (ice), or in the Root of a Central Server.

 

The only exceptions to this rule are Oversight AI, Bioroid Efficiency Research, and Currents. Each of them has specifically printed exceptions to the installation rules.

Currents are still not installed; they remain in play but couldn't be used for (for example) Tennin Trick of Light shenanigans.

[etherial 62]

I personally would have written OAI as an Upgrade with no Trash Cost. That would have fit the mechanics of the game better.

[Kael Hate 119]

Really just need to put a line in the FAQ, "while Oversight AI is considered a counter it isn't considered an operation or a card"

I have nothing against the ruling, its the stupid arbitrary evidence they are trying to push it with when they really just need to spell out the intent clearly.

[Grimwalker 647]

Really don't. We can just go on like we have been where everybody knows how it works and there's no confusion except for somebody necroposting on a thread that's over six months old.
 

• Operations are never installed.
• Hosting is a condition in which something must be installed in order to have active effects.
• "Condition Counter" is not a card type. Therefore, not a card.
• When it leaves play, the text making it a counter ceases, so it goes where trashed cards go.

 

That is the simplest way I can put it. There's no need to update the FAQ to spell out something that derives directly from the rules and FAQ as printed.

[Kael Hate 119]

Okay, but here is the problems for the Non-Arbitrary crowd

• Operations are never installed.

Card text overrides normal rules. Golden Rule page 5.

And the card itself does say "and install Oversight AI on that ice".

And the FAQ says "...is no longer an operation, while it is active."

So not really something that helps explain it is not a card.

• Hosting is a condition in which something must be installed in order to have active effects.

Again, the card does say Install.

• "Condition Counter" is not a card type. Therefore, not a card.

Yeah that doesn't mean much. It is a card when it left your hand and never said it wasn't a card and there is no ruling or information in the rulebook stating that card no longer exists as a card while it is a counter. From someone who has played tonnes of other card games this text would just mean that it could interact with things that refer to counters, not that isn't a card anymore. Ever played magic the no1 ccg in the world? Tokens become creatures all the time but it never makes them cards when creature is a card type. Better yet, Oversight Ai is a card when its played, and the uses Install as text to put it onto the table just as the rulebook says "Install: this is the game term for playing a card onto the table" and has the FAQ text to go to the archives when trashed as cards do, should a player think that for any moment its not a card when there is no text to say its not a card. Its also counterintuitive that every other counter in the game is placed on a card where this is installed and no other counter in the game has specific interactive text.

• When it leaves play, the text making it a counter ceases, so it goes where trashed cards go.

Well that's all good and well to say but that isn't written on the card or in FAQ anywhere.

The faq says "Oversight AI is trashed to the Archives if the host ice is uninstalled." and is closer confirmation that it is a card as only cards that are trashed or discarded go to the archives.

That is the simplest way I can put it. There's no need to update the FAQ to spell out something that derives directly from the rules and FAQ as printed.

If a piece of ice or any card for that matter gains a subtype, does it stop being what it originally was? Why then would a card that gains the text that is a counter stop it being a card?

When I told the others about this and they called bull, the only evidence I could point to was an arbitrary statement that being a counter means its not a card when its not written anywhere as such and when there is tonnes of other conflicting evidence to suggest it always is a card.

Just because you and I know its intended to work this way doesn't mean that someone with only the rulebook the faq and the card know its intended to work that way. They should put it in the FAQ simply and clearly "While it is a condition counter Oversight Ai is not an operation or a card"

[Kael Hate 119]

"Oversight AI is treated as a condition counter, and is no longer an operation, while it is active."

Just another thing, if this text from the FAQ is supposed to be inferred that it is no longer a card but that a counter can have an active and inactive status, how do I show the status of my virus counters?

The rulebook glossary says "Active: A state in which a card's effects and abilities are able to be used and affect the game" but if Oversight AI is not a card anymore how can it affect the game?

[Pandonetho 10]

Seriously you're arguing semantics. Everyone who plays netrunner knows the purpose and intent of the card. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Literally no one cares about this. Except you.

[ProfMoriarty 11]

Well to be fair, I mean none of the cards are "cards" in the game since there's no FAQ nor rule entry that lists the title of all the cards and states "these are to be considered cards for all game effects that target or involve the use of cards".

 

So the game is broken, imho, and I suppose I should just toss all these expansion packs that aren't really expansion packs since the FAQ doesn't say they are legal, just the cards in them are, which clearly aren't cards.

[Kael Hate 119]

lol

[Kael Hate 119]

Had a gathering this week with 5 newbies ex-magic players. Showed them Ai and Isabel to them all. They all were amazed and impressed by the combo. I showed them the FAQ and asked them to read the card again. Then pointed out that the ruling is the Ai is not a card while in play. All 5 doubted me and 1 even looked online to find a thread like this because they thought I was talking ****. I lold.

[Pandonetho 10]

They all were amazed and impressed by the combo. I showed them the FAQ and asked them to read the card again.

 

If it sounds too good to be true, it's because it is. It's common sense that something like that combo which would break the game isn't a real combo. Do you honestly think players are going to go in permanently rezzing the most expensive ice in the game at the cost of a few clicks and 1 credit? The only reasons why your newb friends were amazed and impressed is because they haven't played netrunner, so they don't know any better. Anyone who has played a few games can see right away that you shouldn't be able to rez iec like Janus and Wotan for 1 credit, permanently.

[Kael Hate 119]

They all were amazed and impressed by the combo. I showed them the FAQ and asked them to read the card again.

 

If it sounds too good to be true, it's because it is. It's common sense that something like that combo which would break the game isn't a real combo. Do you honestly think players are going to go in permanently rezzing the most expensive ice in the game at the cost of a few clicks and 1 credit? The only reasons why your newb friends were amazed and impressed is because they haven't played netrunner, so they don't know any better. Anyone who has played a few games can see right away that you shouldn't be able to rez iec like Janus and Wotan for 1 credit, permanently.

I've played this card both ways with Isabel and without, the advantage she gives is negligible in res cost and mostly helps with removing the Trashing/DeRez affects from the condition counters not with any particular loop of infinite rez. Still the clarity that it isn't a card is the thing that they couldn't understand and what I still put forward needs an FAQ line for.

At 4 clicks and a Cred to use Isabel to get a freebie you save a little on the big ice. But Then again I run 3 Janus 2 Wotan and 3 Heimdal in my HB deck and never run short of an OAI or BER to res them cheap. We now have Eliza's Toybox which doesn't require any other cards and can do any ICe or Upgrade or Assets like the Root for 3 clicks. Is this breaking the World?