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Cymbel

Carapace + Agl Caps

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So enforcer carapace has an agl cap of 45, I can see that, stormtrooper carapace has the same, same weight, better plates, etc., it works.

 

Carapace chestplate has a cap of 55, well, it doesn't cover as much and well, I can see that working to an extent. Then the carapace other parts (greaves, gauntlets, helmet) have no agl cap. So you could assemble a suit of 55 agl cap light carapace, with the exception of -1 head AP, +1 chest AP and 1 kg lighter to boot. The only real downside is having to make 4 different tests to get the individual parts (which is admittedly MUCH harder in the current acquisition system).

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I think enforcer carapace needs to be Rare instead of Very Rare and have higher max agility. Otherwise you may as well jump from Guard Flak straight to Stormtrooper carapace.

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Currently, it is -5 agl less than Flak, same as storm carapace, same weight as such, 4 kg more than flak

 

AP wise it fills a middle gal between 4 AP all and 6 AP all, but the flak part of the 4AP makes it less important.

 

As well as scarce for guard flak, rare for enforcer, very rare for storm

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I think enforcer carapace needs to be Rare instead of Very Rare and have higher max agility. Otherwise you may as well jump from Guard Flak straight to Stormtrooper carapace.

 

Limits need to be stricter, not higher !

 

Stormtrooper carapace and the chestplate should get the limit 5 stricter each.

yggZ and Elior like this

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Have you seen the videos of people in historically accurate fullplate (that is, not decorative fullplate or the specialty heavier jousting ones), they move with ease, doing pushups, jumping around and these are folks without much training. Ceramite and other materials are even lighter and easier to use.

 

And look at the table as is, Chainmail is EASIER to move around in then Full Plate, which is historically wrong and just a bit nonsensical. Like I listed the "Buying your own light carapace suit in 4 purchases with -1 AP head, +1 AP body" has a magically higher agl cap than enforcer light carapace.

 

Good armor shouldn't overly limit your movement and most of the values are decent as is. There are some problems (BYO Light Carapace, Feudal Plate/Chainmail, no reason to get Enforcer Carapace when Stormtrooper Carapace is around), but overall it is pretty decent.

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It's not so much the mobility as it is one's speed within the armor. It's actually a combination of the two. If one watches SCA tournaments or live action armored combat with padded wooded weapons, it becomes apparent that while they can do push ups or even a cartwheel, those movements don't transition well to combat at all. Even the quickest of these competitors rarely avoids an incoming blow with their reflexes. Instead they heavily rely on using shields or parrying techniques.

 

In reality, the people with quicker reflexes tend to wear lighter armour such as leathers so that they can move more naturally with speed.

Edited by Elior
Ghaundan likes this

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Yep, which is why I can see a low cap, just not 25 (which impairs movement speed HEAVILY) as well as being harder to move in than chainmail.

 

But my main issue is still the wonked out values with carapace. I can wear just the breastplate for enforcer carapace, yet have a lower agl cap than a breastplate WITH the addons that essentialy make it a superior (and lighter by 1 kg) version of enforcer carapace.

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I dont see the big issue with this, since Enforcer light carapace is more or less Arbites armour, i cant imagine anyone else running around in it, and therefore shouldnt be a stepping stone between flak and stormtrooper carapace. With that in mind tho, i neither see a Arbite mixing their glorious arbite armour with stormtroop carapace, that would seem unfit for an arbite, and therefore nullify the problem with mixin' enforcer carapace with stormtrooper carapace.

Edited by Jilaag

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Have you seen the videos of people in historically accurate fullplate (that is, not decorative fullplate or the specialty heavier jousting ones), they move with ease, doing pushups, jumping around and these are folks without much training. Ceramite and other materials are even lighter and easier to use.

 

And look at the table as is, Chainmail is EASIER to move around in then Full Plate, which is historically wrong and just a bit nonsensical. Like I listed the "Buying your own light carapace suit in 4 purchases with -1 AP head, +1 AP body" has a magically higher agl cap than enforcer light carapace.

 

Good armor shouldn't overly limit your movement and most of the values are decent as is. There are some problems (BYO Light Carapace, Feudal Plate/Chainmail, no reason to get Enforcer Carapace when Stormtrooper Carapace is around), but overall it is pretty decent.

 

Yes, but without the armour they could move even much easier and better.

 

The cap does not limit your ag horribly. A cap on 40 is still leaving you with an Ag thats far over that of an average person, even over an average acolyte.

yggZ likes this

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I dont see the big issue with this, since Enforcer light carapace is more or less Arbites armour, i cant imagine anyone else running around in it, and therefore shouldnt be a stepping stone between flak and stormtrooper carapace. With that in mind tho, i neither see a Arbite mixing their glorious arbite armour with stormtroop carapace, that would seem unfit for an arbite, and therefore nullify the problem with mixin' enforcer carapace with stormtrooper carapace.

 

Well, Arbites armor is actually closer to stormtrooper carapace every time it has been written up in the books. Enforcers are the PDF of the Arbites in a sense. They do normal "cop" stuff, while the Arbites are more analog to a FBI in some senses, with superior SWAT/Riot/HRT programs and a more militant outlook. In fact for some lesser worlds, they may have a handful of Arbites just keeping a watch/working on keeping the Enforcers up to shape. As I said, Enforcers are looked down upon, they are locally raised, limited jurisdiction and scale by the Arbites in the same sense that IG look down on PDF, except in this case, the disparity between equipment and training is even greater.

 

 

Have you seen the videos of people in historically accurate fullplate (that is, not decorative fullplate or the specialty heavier jousting ones), they move with ease, doing pushups, jumping around and these are folks without much training. Ceramite and other materials are even lighter and easier to use.

 

And look at the table as is, Chainmail is EASIER to move around in then Full Plate, which is historically wrong and just a bit nonsensical. Like I listed the "Buying your own light carapace suit in 4 purchases with -1 AP head, +1 AP body" has a magically higher agl cap than enforcer light carapace.

 

Yes, but without the armour they could move even much easier and better.

 

The cap does not limit your ag horribly. A cap on 40 is still leaving you with an Ag thats far over that of an average person, even over an average acolyte.

 

 

I was talking more about full plate VS chainmail, which should be reversed, then raised a bit, maybe 5?

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Realistic or not - I think it makes sense for most people.

Felt reality is sometimes worth more than real reality. Especially in a game.

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Could you show any reference to chainmail being worse to move around in then plate? Just out of curiousity as I don't know much about that sort of stuff. Best I have is guys in late medieval plate being able to move rather easily, although not very fast and...deadliest warrior which I look more for the lolz and poor gelfigures being brutalized. Which showed early mail against late plate as far as I remember.

I agree that heavier armour should penalize agility more then it currently does. We have an arbite in his carapace and he's not really going to notice the "cap" anytime soon, if at all. Which makes the entire point moot for him. Heck, even our gunslinging desperado wouldn't feel it for quite awhile.

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Even if chainmail might be heavier, I think its easier to move with.

I havent worn a full plate for real, but I wore chainmail. I cant imagine a plate to be more easy to move with.

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I don't see why stereotypes should be reinforced, when you can work to bring the truth.

You really wanna discuss about "the truth" ?

Inside the 40k universe ? ;)

Realism is bent in so many ways, that THIS really does not make the difference.

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Chainmail is easier to move in than Full Plate because chainmail gives more mobility. For instance, a breast plate (part of plate mail) prevents the wearer from many bending movements while a chainmail shirt allows full movement of the upper torso. It's not even comparable. 

 

Anyone that has ever worn both can attest to this.

Edited by Elior

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I think some realism is good, look at "A Song of Ice and Fire" and compare it to other fantasy settings. Westeros works as a place far more than other fantasy ones. Part of why I like Dark Heresy, because there is a realism inherent in the setting and it isn't just handwaving all the time.

 

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aams/hd_aams.htm

 

I still think 25 is too low for it, I don't think it should be too high, but that becomes an old school D&D "Plate protects better so we must balance it down heavily" while a 30 would be more reasonable, it doesn't impair an average person's mobility that much, nor is it as easy to wear as more modern body armor (flak).

 

Another issue is that plate is heavier, but distributes the weight well, while chainmail "pulls" down on you with the weight concentrated on the shoulders (though a belt can reduce this somewhat, but not stop it).

 

Not to mention chainmail is weaker to piercing weapons, especially arrows (and can you imagine a gun or a flamer against the multiple holes?)

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I have to agree with Cymbel here.  Gravity is your enemy.  I would give chain the nod on mobility in the short term, but only if the game has turn by turn rules for how tired you get and how that effects you.

 

Seriously, if you fight for more rounds (in a row) in chain than you have toughness, you should get Fatigued.  It is not condusive to efficient maneuvering.  That doesn't mean you'd get fatigue every turn after, but people couldn't fight for very long in armor.  Moving from one fight to the next, okay, moving to engage a new opponent, sure, but in the constant press you get tired and then you die.

 

Articulated plate on the other hand was much better for fighting.  technology.  I know the M41 doesn't have a handle on it anymore, but it doesn't mean we have to forget.

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Chainmail was the cheap option for a reason, useful, easy to make. And plate was what the rich got because they could afford it. Why would they have spent a LOT more on this option if it wasn't better? Better weight distribution, better protection and snazzier (last point open to discussion).

 

So while chain mail may have a greater initial mobility, it would possibly drag them longer, but not worth making special rules for it...Agl caps should be adjusted for plate though, it should be at least the level of a normal person when moving around. As it is, I doubt any player using it, even for fluff (especially with the massive penalty on dodge).

 

Anyways, I still find it weird you can make a do-it-yourself kit of light carapace with roughly the same AP and a bit lighter to boot, but a much higher Aglcap.

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