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Beren Eoath

WFRP 4e - how should it look?

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I really hope they keep everything that is in WHFR 3e. Sure it could use some polishing and more background for newer players. However it is all really good and very refreshing in a world filled with generic dice, feats, states, and tactical grid battles galore. So far personally I haven't found anything in WHFR 3e that I don't like. With how it is currently I get to focus more on roleplaying and not on mechanics. It got enough information available that people have an idea of what to do at a glance with tons of flexibility for roleplaying and narrating what is happening. Things that I see less and less with D20 type games. Please FFG keep WHFR the way it is and just polish a bit more next time. Keep the action cards, party sheets, talents, monster styles, nemesis sheets, tokens, and custom dice.    It is fantastic and fun. I think people are just to set in their ways and 'traditional' to enjoy a fresh, fun style when it comes along. This is of course just my opinion. 

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For me the 3e was nice but it need to be more flexible. It should have more informations for new and old players aboutthe setting, the Empire and so on.

Personaly I would like it to evlve in a edition thet would give the GM & players more options how they want to play, for example : so with cards or without those. SW RPG uses this model so You can play just with the books and everything on character sheet or You can buy a POD to have some talents on cards.

I don't see a 3e as a bad edition but just different and not every player like it. And it's not a bestseller, and this forum is almost dead.

So if FFG want to keep the licence then I think they will release something in this setting if not a new / improved edition then any good expansion for the existing one.

We will see,

 

Cheers

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I really hope they keep everything that is in WHFR 3e. Sure it could use some polishing and more background for newer players. However it is all really good and very refreshing in a world filled with generic dice, feats, states, and tactical grid battles galore. So far personally I haven't found anything in WHFR 3e that I don't like. With how it is currently I get to focus more on roleplaying and not on mechanics. It got enough information available that people have an idea of what to do at a glance with tons of flexibility for roleplaying and narrating what is happening. Things that I see less and less with D20 type games. Please FFG keep WHFR the way it is and just polish a bit more next time. Keep the action cards, party sheets, talents, monster styles, nemesis sheets, tokens, and custom dice.    It is fantastic and fun. I think people are just to set in their ways and 'traditional' to enjoy a fresh, fun style when it comes along. This is of course just my opinion. 

 

 

WFRP 3e is definately the best rpg I have played till now. I am just looking forward to new expansions and campaigns, a new edition in my opinion is not needed at all.

 

You are both right of course. Unfortunately 3rd edition hasn't sold well and is unfortunately basicly dead from the FFG point of view. All we can hope for now is a new edition, if we get that. Hoping for a reprieve for 3rd edition will not change the financial realities, no more than it did for 2nd edition. Again hopefully they will have learned from 3rd edition and will be just as innovative with a 4th edition.

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Unfortunately 3rd edition hasn't sold well and is unfortunately basicly dead from the FFG point of view. 

 

 

This is pure speculation. Warranted, given the silence from FFG, but speculation nonetheless.

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New folks please don't fall into this. This conversation happens 2-3 times a year always with the same characters on the stage. Everyone's passionate about gaming so it's not a right/wrong thing... it's just proven to be a fruitless conversation. Don't rise to the bait and good gaming. Cheers.

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New folks please don't fall into this. This conversation happens 2-3 times a year always with the same characters on the stage. Everyone's passionate about gaming so it's not a right/wrong thing... it's just proven to be a fruitless conversation. Don't rise to the bait and good gaming. Cheers.

I just did a search. Wow, I see. Ok, I'm done here :) Thanks for the heads up. I just enjoy the game. I definitely don't want any part of...that other stuff :)

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I would want 4th Ed to be as similar to 3rd Ed as possible, so nearly all the cards etc are compatible. I would only desire changes that could be made in the rulebooks, not on the cards. For example:

  • Improved healing rules, with clarifications and a summary/chart. (If the PCs go to a Hospice of Shallya for mercy-healing, the NPCs give them Immediate Care with First Aid and Medicine, followed by Long-Term Care rolls with First Aid and Medicine, then possibly a Blessing or three, plus the effects of the Location card, and the Hospice care rule, plus maybe a Haggle check or Charm check from the PCs, on top of the normal sleep healing amounts and recovery checks. That's way too much time and die-rolling!)
  • Revisions to the disease rules.  (Timing of onset is kinda weird. Low toughness characters die too easily to disease, and all diseases can potentially kill within days. Symptoms matter more than the disease which means all diseases are too similar/random/flavorless. Medicines often don't kick in till you've taken them 4 or 6 times by which point you're already dead and that one bonus die won't matter.)
  • Better rules for opposed checks. (Probably requires a revised purple die and a new "negative equivalent" of yellow die for skills... but honestly just changing the numbers of the existing dice would be an improvement.)
  • Revisions to the equipment chapter. (Better, complete, pricelist organized in a sensible way. Reduced difficulties on Availability checks. Silver to Brass conversion rate being divisible by 4 so Haggle checks actually work. Black Powder weapons being either cheaper or actually worth the expense.)
  • Horse rules that are more elegant and less annoying. (You shouldn't waste all your actions just trying to keep your horse under control. Riding a horse should also actually make you faster or save you some manoeuvres.)
  • Tweaks to abstract movement. (No ranged weapon should have "Close" as it's range. Or perhaps change the whole scale so Close = within 2 manoeuvres, Medium = within 4, Long = within 8, Extreme = within 12. Or something like that.)
  • Talent sockets should be less of a headache as you level up (Either make it possible to buy extra sockets, or to allow you to spend a manoeuvre to switch which of your completed careers you're using the sockets from. Either change would solve what problems I have with them.)
  • Tweaks to the Henchman rules. (It's silly when you kill 4 henchman with one shot of a pistol. Henchmen also don't have clear interactions with area-effect mechanics like fireballs, blunderbuses or Fear checks.)
  • A single Morale mechanic. (There's actually two contradictory systems in two different chapters of the current GM's guide, and both are optional, despite there being creature mechanics/powers that interact with them. Neither of them interact particularly well with the Henchman rules or PCs using Fear mechanics.)
  • Revisions to the Influence/Social Combat mechanics. (There should be a stat that defines how much Influencing it takes to completely sway an NPC, with concrete examples on an easy-to-use chart. There also needs to be some mechanic that prevents 4-vs-1 gang ups, 'cause it's stupid how easily the PCs can socially overpower any NPC they manage to catch alone.)
  • Plugging the loophole created by humans swapping careers willy-nilly (Already partly plugged by optional rule in sidebar in Player's Guide, but it's still mildly abusable even with that.)
  • A more logical list of careers for Ogres and Halflings. (Ogres can be Ambassadors and Navigators in the current rules!)
  • An elf boxed set.

 

In other words, I'd be much more interested in a 3.5 than a 4th Ed. All the changes I feel the game needs could fit in a single slim paperback volume like they include in any of the boxed sets.

 

About the only cards I'd like to see changed are:

  • Party Cards (Great concept, clunky execution. Should be continual minor penalty when tension is high, instead of the current thing that triggers and then resets.)
  • Monster Group Cards (nearly all of them feature 8-step trackers that move 1 step per turn, so they never trigger before the battle ends). 
  • Maybe the Disease cards. (Though I think these are probably saveable as-is by just revising the rules of how they work.)
  • A couple of the more potent cards could still use errata... but I'd be fine if that errata was just adding "Epic" to them.
  • Maybe the Location cards. (They're okay as-is, but would be better if larger, full-color, with all the info in a larger font and on the same side as the picture.)
Edited by r_b_bergstrom
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I'd like to see a different writer.  Perhaps someone who can get it organized in an easily usable format   :)  You'd think from a boardgame company that it would have been better written for ease of use ad reference.

 

[edit:  I still think the thought of a 4e is a completely stupid waste of time and resources when we don't even have an elf or rogue product out yet.  What?  I'm going to go out and buy all these boxed sets again because they say 4e and "trimmed the rules a little?"  I don't disagree with Bergstrom's assessment, but I still cant justify a 4e.

 

4E WOULD BE AN ABSURD WASTE OF MY TIME]

Edited by Emirikol
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I'd like to see a different writer.  Perhaps someone who can get it organized in an easily usable format   :)  You'd think from a boardgame company that it would have been better written for ease of use ad reference.

Many of their board games suffer from poor manuals as well. If the license fees aren't too brutal maybe the margins made from all of those hardcover Star Wars splats will afford them the opportunity to hire some decent copy editors :)

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I'd like to see a different writer.  Perhaps someone who can get it organized in an easily usable format   :)  You'd think from a boardgame company that it would have been better written for ease of use ad reference.

Many of their board games suffer from poor manuals as well. If the license fees aren't too brutal maybe the margins made from all of those hardcover Star Wars splats will afford them the opportunity to hire some decent copy editors :)

 

 

I imagine the license fees for Star Wars make GW's look like a drop in the ocean. Unfortunately I suspect it is just down to the culture at FFG.

 

As to why we keep getting a more or less repeat of this issue very 4-6 months, it comes from peoples frustration at not knowing what is happening with WFRP and whether there is any future for 3rd edition, I imagine. Of course it is just speculation, but remember FFG have form in this direction and so the speculation looks less like myth and more like legend.

Edited by ragnar63

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Well, reading this thread and similar ones, I think what will be best is that FFG takes his time to release a 4th edition. 2 or 3 years. Well after Force and Destiny (the 3rd core book for the SW line).

I say that because on one hand there is many people who like the 3rd edition. Those people really do not need anything else to play the game. There is plenty of material only with the 3rd edition, and looking a bit around you can find all you want from previous editions. This should be enough to play for years, and honestly, this edition does not need more cards in the form of PODs.

On the other hand, there is people like me who would prefer a 4th edition. Well, in that case I prefer they take their time. See how SW evolves, iterate once more based on the SW system, make a beta version of the core book that contains ALL the rules needed to play the game and release it for beta testing.

 

Cheers,

Yepes

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Well, reading this thread and similar ones, I think what will be best is that FFG takes his time to release a 4th edition. 2 or 3 years. Well after Force and Destiny (the 3rd core book for the SW line).

I say that because on one hand there is many people who like the 3rd edition. Those people really do not need anything else to play the game. There is plenty of material only with the 3rd edition, and looking a bit around you can find all you want from previous editions. This should be enough to play for years, and honestly, this edition does not need more cards in the form of PODs.

On the other hand, there is people like me who would prefer a 4th edition. Well, in that case I prefer they take their time. See how SW evolves, iterate once more based on the SW system, make a beta version of the core book that contains ALL the rules needed to play the game and release it for beta testing.

 

Cheers,

Yepes

 

Very well put! The only thing I would add is that they need to be as radical with a 4th edition, as they were with 3rd. Otherwise there will be very little point in a 4th edition.

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I'd like to see a different writer.  Perhaps someone who can get it organized in an easily usable format   :)  You'd think from a boardgame company that it would have been better written for ease of use ad reference.

 

[edit:  I still think the thought of a 4e is a completely stupid waste of time and resources when we don't even have an elf or rogue product out yet.  What?  I'm going to go out and buy all these boxed sets again because they say 4e and "trimmed the rules a little?"  I don't disagree with Bergstrom's assessment, but I still cant justify a 4e.

 

4E WOULD BE AN ABSURD WASTE OF MY TIME]

 

i like to see most of the stuff streamlined aswell, but agree that there is no need for a 4ed atm, at least from a regular players point of view. A rougue book combined with the horned rat/skavens serves perfekt as a 5'th source set complimenting the 4 chaos gods and the 4 human power factions.

A campaign or at least a bunch of  scenarios dealing with undead is something that i see missing aswell.

A set of magical items- print on demand should be a sure sell also.

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[edit:  I still think the thought of a 4e is a completely stupid waste of time and resources when we don't even have an elf or rogue product out yet.  What?  I'm going to go out and buy all these boxed sets again because they say 4e and "trimmed the rules a little?"  I don't disagree with Bergstrom's assessment, but I still cant justify a 4e.

 

4E WOULD BE AN ABSURD WASTE OF MY TIME]

 

For the record, I'd rather there not be a 4th Ed either. I put a lot of money into 3rd Ed (bought everything), and am enjoying the game as it is.

 

I wouldn't mind if they did some future boxed set (elves or rogues or whatever) and included a slim volume with a few revised rules sections, as noted above.

 

If I "have" to buy all the boxed sets all over again, I'd be pretty upset, and it would take a heck of a lot to convince me to convert over to a new edition.

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They could change the system but I think they should try to incorporate the materials created for WFRP3.

First of all dice and action cards (obviously stand up can be kept too).

 

I don't think they should try to keep producing  tokens because every body can use whatever he want (for European gamers 1 cent coin is perfect and cheaper than tokens).

 

With my house rules I  shown that is possible to change a lot from the original system keeping the expensive items we paid for buying WFRP3 supplements.

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[edit:  I still think the thought of a 4e is a completely stupid waste of time and resources when we don't even have an elf or rogue product out yet.  What?  I'm going to go out and buy all these boxed sets again because they say 4e and "trimmed the rules a little?"  I don't disagree with Bergstrom's assessment, but I still cant justify a 4e.

 

4E WOULD BE AN ABSURD WASTE OF MY TIME]

 

Unfortunately Jay, I do not think that what we think really matters to FFG. Financially a 4th edition is the only thing that makes sense. If we were going to get an Elf or Rogue box for 3rd edition, we would have had them by now. My only hope is that they make the 4th edition radical enough that people will buy it, and so hopefully we will finally get the elf book or box etc we have all wanted for so long. If it isn't radical enough then people will not convert from 2nd or 3rd edition and we will be guaranteed not to see an Elf box.

 

This may be unpalatable to many people including yourself, but the other options are nothing happening until GW takes back the license or they give it up so that somebody like Green Ronin can have their own shot at it. Harsh but true, I am sure.

Edited by ragnar63

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worst thread ever :)

I know from our earlier conversations that you're a new player looking for a positive web experience. Please check out all of the fine work Jay has done, and feel free to join us at the other community site I linked you earlier. Cheers.

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I'm just going to throw my two cents in with this semiannual discussion.

 

I have loved WFRP since 1st Ed, and I like 3rd Ed as well (and I've spend a lot of money on it), but I would personally welcome a 4th edition in the near future, because I can see from the Star Wars RPG that FFG has learned a great deal by making 3rd Ed, and I want to benefit from that.

 

Thing is; while I really respect a lot of the things FFG are trying to do with 3rd Ed, it's really a bit of a mess, isn't it?

IMO, what could be a really elegant system get's somewhat buried under a mountain of components and conflicting rules.

 

Why do I get a single copy of hundreds of different of actions and talents, many of which are poorly balanced, and most of which won't ever see use?

What I want is 20 actions and 20 talents that are diverse and well balanced - and I want six copies of each, so my players don't have to share cards (which kind of negates the whole point of putting the rules on cards in the first place).

 

Why do "brief" conditions get three tracking tokens when exhausted talents get four?

I had to look that up by the way, because I can never remember which gets how many! - and I will never understand why there needed to be a difference at all. This is just one example of weirdly complicated rules in what is, at heart, a relatively simple system.

 

Why did I have to download a basic equipment list from Liber Fanatica?

That should have been in the rulebook.

 

And so on, and so on...

 

In short: I like and admire WFRP 3ed Ed, but IMO it's an, only mostly successful, experiment - and I'd like to see how good it really could be. If that means getting rid of 70 percent of the components (and it does IMO), then so be it. "Kill your babies", as they say....

Edited by Croaker13
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@Croaker  A few nitpicks aside I'm clearly fine with 3E as is, but zooming out industry wide for a second... it's more than clear that we've come full circle with rpg's. The industry is knee deep into games and toolkits now that are campfire-story based with minimal crunch, and easy to digest rulesets. I think the heavy crunch, Pathfinder-style folks are still there, and I believe niche players like us 3E folks are still here, but the success of Fate Core, Dungeon World, and other heavy narrative titles shows where the interest and the money lies for now. FFG is a company built on selling components and physical materials. The ideas put forth by our 4E Zealots aren't without merit, but as pointed out by Rag himself, probably best served with another company. An Edge of the Empire clone with an Old World skin would be pretty lame, imo. A 2E clone with modern dice mechanics is probably what the old folks want and deserve at this point, but I can't think of many companies that would do it justice. Maybe Green Ronin, or maybe Cubicle 7 if you don't mind getting a splat book once every four years.

 

Don't mistake me, I'd rather see GW lock the whole **** thing away permanently than attempt to drag it's customers WotC style through yet another product cycle of lore and setting we already own but if/when the inevitable comes I'll at least know that there's no more for me to invest in and I can focus elsewhere. I certainly don't expect huge seachange to happen just because two or three guys on a forum can't be buggered to use a party sheet, but i hope eventually that we all find the fun we seek.   :)

 

Love y'all

 

K

Edited by Keeop
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Keeop; I think you are hitting a lot of nails on the head. To be honest I'm probably one of the "old ones" who'd prefer a modernized 2nd Ed. No, come to think of it I'd actually like a modern take on 1st Ed instead, but that's never going to happen :(

 

However, I don't actually believe that WFRP should be watered down in the name of accessibility. And I do like the basic idea of putting the rules "on the table" as it were.

I'd just like it to be done with a little more restraint and precision than before - and from what I can see, FFG would be able to do it now, after learning from both WFRP 3rd Ed and EotE. I would buy the new cards!

Edited by Croaker13
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I think in the end it may come down to whether FFG reckon WFRP is worth the license fee, and /or if GW decides that FFG are not doing it justice. The results of the 2nd edition of Dark Heresy may have far more influence on the former than anything we say here, particularly if SW is successful,

Edited by ragnar63

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I think in the end it may come down to whether FFG reckon WFRP is worth the license fee, and /or if GW decides that FFG are not doing it justice. The results of the 2nd edition of Dark Heresy may have far more influence on the former than anything we say here, particularly if SW is successful,

I'd agree. I expect this year to revolve around SW and 40K products.

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