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Big Damn Hero

Force & Destiny "Commitment"

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More than anything else, I was wondering what this would look like.

 

My $0.02? Notoriety

 

Much like how Obligation is wholly negative, Notoriety would be an abstract numerical representation of how public and visible the character is. It could represent rumors, eye-witness accounts, and an ISB record. Maybe it's entirely unjustified, and you're playing that EotE character who's never seen a Jedi, honest, but it doesnt' matter because you got pointed out once, or was just won too much in that card game, or something.

 

Similarly, it would bring out Bounty Hunters and Inquisitors trying to hunt you down, or whether or not you're recognized in a populated cantina.

 

My only issue with this is that it'd be too simliar to Obligation, only you can't pay it off. Plus you can't hang character hooks on it beyond "Keep your head down. Don't cause trouble. Don't rock the boat."

 

Thoughts?

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You could make a twist on it and call it the "Will of the Force." Very often we get Jedi talking about being in the right place at the right time due to the Force, or that it guides their actions a certain way to make certain events happen in the galacy.

 

It's like predetermined destiny with a dash of free will thrown in to muck things up!

 

Breakdowns of this can be as varied as Obligation if you really think about it. Qui-Gon went by The Living Force and would often find himself rescuing people or what others would call "inferior beings." He also was prone to defy those above him for things he believed were right.

 

Anakin was always driven toward power, thus why everyone thought he was "The Chosen One." This also explains his fall to the Dark Side, and also would show his Hatred for Jedi.

 

Obi-Wan would have had something closer to Duty or Honor, and looking at his character screams that.

 

Luke didn't start with a Jedi "career," but we can argue that he moves into the obligations of it. He has a form of Duty and Honor, but also had, at times, a Responsibility regarding teaching the Force and reintroducing the Jedi to the Galaxy.

 

But these are all easy. Let's go with someone a bit tougher: Cade Skywalker.

 

Cade had his Obligation (Addition), but he also ran into quite a bit with the Will of the Force. He was always riding that line between Light and Dark, he possessed a healing talent that skirted those lines, AND he was clearly the only one who could save the Galaxy from The One Sith. My guess is: Destiny.

 

 

I think an approach like that could work. It gets "bought off" the more you live it and complete the goals. . .or the more you oppose it and force it to change.

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No, "Notoriety" is too focused on the time frame around the OT. FFG will want something that can translate across eras much like their Obligation and Duty mechanics can. Obligation, Duty and "Commitment" are all different aspects of the same concept.

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No, "Notoriety" is too focused on the time frame around the OT. FFG will want something that can translate across eras much like their Obligation and Duty mechanics can. Obligation, Duty and "Commitment" are all different aspects of the same concept.

 

I've been guessing right from the get-go that Force & Destiny will include "Destiny", but that might get confused with Destiny Points.  That said, it makes sense.

  • Obligation is your connection to your past.
  • Duty is your connection to your present.
  • Destiny is your connection to your future.
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I seriously hope there is not a dark side tracking mechanism.

If there is anything about destiny, I would hope it is more along the lines of a motivation.

I originally proposed the idea of commitment to go alongside obligation and duty, because of Yoda's line: "a Jedi must have the deepest commitment. The most serious mind." I figured it would be the best way to simulate the training of the Jedi and other force traditions. Much like how duty can be 'traded in' for new gear, commitment can be traded in to recieve force rating and possibly other necessary things such as a the very expensive lightsaber. What better way to represent a character building their own lightsaber then to 'commit' to its construction. While you can also earn force rating from talents, the talent trees we've seen so far only have it once.

I hope that force and destiny doesn't make Jedi, sith or even witch of dathomir careers or specialties, but give us careers and specialties that we've seen and in ways we've seen them. There are many examples of characters (often pilots) that use the force so I suspect we will see repeated specializations. Commitment as I proposed offers a way for a character to acquire a force rating, represent joinjng a tradition like the Jedi and still have a character like Luke (or Anakin) that might have careers and specialties focusing on their piloting of mechanical aptitude.

Also if the careers and specialties are more generic in naming and we have no Jedi career, we have more flexibility to create or use non Jedi traditions.

The Jedi were an order, and as such a philosophy and teaching mandate, but each Jedi was still an individual and had their own talents and way of doing things. With commitment representing a character following the Jedi code, and careers and specialties representing how a character focuses their abilities we get a way to seperate the true Jedi from the people who are just "guys with a lightsaber and some questions."

Because whether Jedi, sith, or other tradition, you have to show a commitment to those teachings to be trained in the mysteries, secrets and overall aspects of your tradition or order, and just because you can use the force and weild a lightsaber, you don't necessarily have the right to call yourself a Jedi (or sith).

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I seriously hope there is not a dark side tracking mechanism.

If there is anything about destiny, I would hope it is more along the lines of a motivation.

I originally proposed the idea of commitment to go alongside obligation and duty, because of Yoda's line: "a Jedi must have the deepest commitment. The most serious mind." I figured it would be the best way to simulate the training of the Jedi and other force traditions. Much like how duty can be 'traded in' for new gear, commitment can be traded in to recieve force rating and possibly other necessary things such as a the very expensive lightsaber. What better way to represent a character building their own lightsaber then to 'commit' to its construction. While you can also earn force rating from talents, the talent trees we've seen so far only have it once.

I hope that force and destiny doesn't make Jedi, sith or even witch of dathomir careers or specialties, but give us careers and specialties that we've seen and in ways we've seen them. There are many examples of characters (often pilots) that use the force so I suspect we will see repeated specializations. Commitment as I proposed offers a way for a character to acquire a force rating, represent joinjng a tradition like the Jedi and still have a character like Luke (or Anakin) that might have careers and specialties focusing on their piloting of mechanical aptitude.

Also if the careers and specialties are more generic in naming and we have no Jedi career, we have more flexibility to create or use non Jedi traditions.

The Jedi were an order, and as such a philosophy and teaching mandate, but each Jedi was still an individual and had their own talents and way of doing things. With commitment representing a character following the Jedi code, and careers and specialties representing how a character focuses their abilities we get a way to seperate the true Jedi from the people who are just "guys with a lightsaber and some questions."

Because whether Jedi, sith, or other tradition, you have to show a commitment to those teachings to be trained in the mysteries, secrets and overall aspects of your tradition or order, and just because you can use the force and weild a lightsaber, you don't necessarily have the right to call yourself a Jedi (or sith).

This ^^ so much this!

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I've been guessing right from the get-go that Force & Destiny will include "Destiny", but that might get confused with Destiny Points.  That said, it makes sense.

  • Obligation is your connection to your past.
  • Duty is your connection to your present.
  • Destiny is your connection to your future.

 

Fate?  (Too Warhammer?)

Path?  (Too new age?)

Calling?  (Too Sarah McLachlan?)

 

Kinda like Destiny best.

SAGA had both Destiny and Destiny Points, and that never got confusing.

Edited by Col. Orange
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Sadly, there's enough power-gamer twinks that will undoubtedly abuse being Force-users, opting instead to simply play a bunch of thugs with fancy laser swords and psychic powers that some kind of Dark Side tracking mechanism will be needed, whether folks like or not.  Sadly, not every would-be player of a Jedi or other 'advanced Force-user' is going to as high-minded or noble in their intents and actions as Obi-Wan has shown himself to be, particularly prior to Revenge of the Sith.  It's been a rampant problem for over 25 years (since the 1st edition of WEG' D6 version hit shelves in 1987), and the simple fact that FFG waited to keep Force & Destiny as the final book in the series means to me that they are well aware of the all problems that powerful Force-users bring to the table, and want to do the best job they can of addressing that problem, rather than sticking their heads in the sands and pretending it doesn't exist.

 

Now I don't think it will be the main mechanic in the way that Obligation and Duty are, but I do think that Simon Fix is onto something in regards to his breakdown of where Obligation, Duty, and "Destiny" fit in regards to a PC's past, present and future.

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I also think it will be Destiny points. Perhaps when you reach a certain number of Destiny points (100?) you gain a force rating? Not sure how that mechanic would be implemented..but its my initial impression. I hope they dont have "Classes" for Jedi's...that doesnt make much sense to me.

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Actually, the one problem I see with calling it Destiny is that there's already a Destiny mechanic in the game.... the destiny pool.  Then again, it's a fairly minor problem.

 

Kager,

That's an interesting idea.  It would cut down on the need for Force-user PCs to constantly be buying more and more Force specializations to keep increasing their Force Rating.  And it does have a balance factor in that if you've got a party full of Force-users, each of them getting a bump to their Force Rating when the collective "Destiny" reaches 100 (kind of like how AoR PCs get a Contribution Rank increase and an Alliance Asset) isn't super-unbalancing because everyone's getting a bump in power.  And if there's only one or two Force-users in the party, then it will take longer for their "Destiny" total to reach that 100 mark, which in turn makes the subsequent increase in power far less frequent and in turn keeps the Force-users from too quickly leaving their mundane companions in the dust (something that was frequently a problem with prior systems).

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Really Donovan? I say something similar to Kager you shoot argue about it. Kager says it and all of a sudden interesting idea? :P

I think you don't like me. :P

Kager,

I really hope that we get something like that. Whether called commitment, destiny or ju-ju, I think it would be a great system. Accumulate 100 'commitment' and like duty you spend it to get a force rating rather getting a nice shiny x-wing from 100 duty.

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I don't see that happening. In keeping with making the games cross compatible, non-Force characters would have no use for such a mechanic unless it had a non-Force benefit. Not only that, Force-using characters from F&D would never take either of the other two mechanics as they would never benefit from them like the F&D mechanic.

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Yeah, my bet is for 'Destiny' too.

 

Though it's possible that 'Destiny' is what the non-Force users get.  I'm kinda reskinning the 'Signature Abilities' as low-key Force influences.

Edited by Maelora

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Sadly, there's enough power-gamer twinks that will undoubtedly abuse being Force-users, opting instead to simply play a bunch of thugs with fancy laser swords and psychic powers that some kind of Dark Side tracking mechanism will be needed, whether folks like or not.  Sadly, not every would-be player of a Jedi or other 'advanced Force-user' is going to as high-minded or noble in their intents and actions as Obi-Wan has shown himself to be, particularly prior to Revenge of the Sith.  It's been a rampant problem for over 25 years (since the 1st edition of WEG' D6 version hit shelves in 1987), and the simple fact that FFG waited to keep Force & Destiny as the final book in the series means to me that they are well aware of the all problems that powerful Force-users bring to the table, and want to do the best job they can of addressing that problem, rather than sticking their heads in the sands and pretending it doesn't exist.

 

 

You've evidently been burned by some lousy players by the sounds of things, Donovan.  I don't have personal experience of that with jedi, but I can see how it could happen, and I've seen it with paladins, etc.  Hopefully all those kind of players can go off and play 'Force Unleashed' and all those other anime games with a SW skin. :)  

 

And yes, I'm glad that F&D is the 3rd book and not the 1st.  FFG do seem to be aware of this issue and seem to be making an effort to keep the Force-users balanced with other characters. I'm pretty sure they don't want people saying: 'hey remember the FFG SW game? That was a great system... until they released the Jedi rules and then it all went to hell.'

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Really Donovan? I say something similar to Kager you shoot argue about it. Kager says it and all of a sudden interesting idea? :P

I think you don't like me. :P

Frankly, I think your approach was too broad, and it invited other issues besides, such as some of the "rewards" being to narrow and potentially only applicable to one PC, such as "hey, this PC now has lightsaber as a career skill while the rest of you get nothing!"  With AoR's Alliance Asset reward system, the X-Wing you mentioned doesn't have to be limited to just one player, and said reward could be something far more useful, such as a transport to let the group travel from system to system as needed, or could be something else entirely, but it's far more of a communal approach that in general benefits the entire party instead of just one person.

 

Truthfully, I doubt Kager's idea would be implemented, for many of the reasons mouthymerc listed.  Though I don't entirely see a F&D PC wanting to take Destiny/Commitment/Calling/etc over an Obligation or Duty as being an entirely bad thing.  It's something that speaks to their character, much the same way a Duty speaks to most AoR characters, and the final decision is ultimately up to the GM as to which one they are going to use for their game.

 

Besides, there's already a number of players that would love to drop Obligation entirely given the negative consequences that are mechanically enforced when it comes up.  The Strain Threshold penalty is a purely mechanical penalty that can can come into play simply for playing an EotE character, even if the PC doesn't take any additional Obligation at character creation, as well as being hurt by other players simply deciding to grab as much Obligation as they can, winding up with a penalty for something they have no control or influence over.  In the Skype game I was in, I don't think anybody ever had their full Strain Threshold, as our group total was 90 Obligation between 5 players due to most of the players taking the +10 Obligation.

While I get that Obligation is a big part of EotE, not everyone shares that sentiment, to the point that I've seen suggestions made that PCs instead start with zero Obligation, but can choose to take 5 or 10 Obligation to get more XP or gear to start with.  Or just simply ignore the Strain Threshold penalty.  All because the GM and players agreed that they don't want to have to deal with the negative aspects of Obligation.

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You've evidently been burned by some lousy players by the sounds of things, Donovan.  I don't have personal experience of that with jedi, but I can see how it could happen, and I've seen it with paladins, etc.  Hopefully all those kind of players can go off and play 'Force Unleashed' and all those other anime games with a SW skin. :)

Not just me personally, but I've been on enough message boards and talked with enough other gamers that I've heard more horror stories caused by lousy players and lousy GMs than some people have played sessions.  Including stories of how folks I knew that were great GMs gave up on the hobby because of one clown that ruined it for everyone.

 

And yes, it pisses me off to no end that there are self-entitled players who think that the game should be centered entirely around them in spite of RPGs being a communal group activity, and that they should have carte blanche to do whatever they want no matter what anyone else in the group might say.  Because those jokers have lead to the demise of countless campaigns and to many folks to give up on the hobby because of that one bad apple ruining it for everybody.

 

But sadly, this forum is showing every sign of turning out just like the WotC one, due simply to the high volume of traffic leading to a lot crap posts that aren't worth reading and so rare few useful or informative posts that the place just isn't worth visiting.

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There are a lot of references about those "Power Gamers" (I suffered 2 of them XD).

 

In my opinion its like a football match, of course must exist some rules that make that a Power Gamer doesn't become a "normal fact", but the same way I believe that you don't have to focus on that, I prefer that the game focuses on character recreation.

 

"Cheaters" musn't be considered in the developement of a game mechanics, just focus in the game! If somone want a power "thing" just will have Brawn 23 and 100.000 XP XD

 

So, game develop must be focused on fidelity and design based on the world reality. If Jedis (or similar) are just awesome... then let it be! :D

Edited by Josep Maria
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So, game develop must be focused on fidelity and design based on the world reality. If Jedis (or similar) are just awesome... then let it be! :D

Then what about the folks that don't want to play a Jedi?  Should they simply be left to play second fiddle to the Jedi in the group?  Be nothing more than a supporting role in the action while the Jedi PCs steal the spotlight and dominate the adventure?

 

Force-users are fairly limited now in terms of power because they can't go above Force Rating 3 (assuming both Exile and Emergent are permitted).  Once Force & Destiny comes out, that cap gets removed, making the potential for Force-users that simply outshine everyone else based upon what powers they've taken.  Influence could very easily be employed, particularly the "affect thoughts" Control Upgrade, to suddenly turn a bunch of enemies that want to gun down the party into disinterested bystanders or even short-term allies.  And there's no telling what other powers will be introduced during the product line.

 

Force-users have always been very powerful characters in any Star Wars RPG, and thus need something more than hoping the player isn't a power-gaming jerk like Logan Ambrose to keep them in check, particularly for new GMs who don't have much (if any) prior experience.  Or newer players who might like to know where the line is between Light and Dark so that they can stay as far away from it as possible like a Jedi actually worthy of the name should.

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My point of view in this cases its "common sense" and dialogue.

 

In my games I use to advice and delimitate players options. If in a concrete campaign I'm not interested in Force Sensitives, aliens or other things in my game I just tell it to my players and them, nicely, agree and pick another options.

 

Other reasons could be that, as you said, that the other ones no-FS will get apart. Here are two points: Or tell your player that please, take another option or create a "balanced scene". As I used it before, Naboo battle (or something similar) could be a great sample. Padme fights with Jedis againts B1. Also dialogues and investigates things. R2 repairs and, whit not, maybe can assist in so many ways in battle. BUT, when we arrive at a crucial moment like Duel of Fates, Padme fights and equivalent challenge to her (tons of Athletics/Skullduggery checks and Battle B1 droids) while the two Jedi players fight the Sith guy.

 

In my actual game I have one nagai martial assassin, a (alien) archeologist/slicer, a FS/Jedi (or something close) explorer and a Force Shaman/Hunter.

 

In most cases I created scenes where everyone can participate on it in a particular way.

 

Mechanics, probably will never fight Darth Maul because... is asthetic in SW XD Lightsaber duels rules!

I prefer to dialogue with my players instead change (one of the) SW essence. If Jedi are cool/awesome, then let them be!

 

Dialogue+Common Sense= Awesome, Fun and almost canonical games!  :D

 

PS: X from Megaman series is still considered a canon-ical guy? XDDD

Edited by Josep Maria

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