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khimaera

What do you think is next?

109 posts in this topic

 

 

Well, FFG might have to re-imagine the Eldar to make them playable especially if they were originally not intended to be so.

 

They don't have to. In the 40k universe, the stamp on humanity is "Sucks to be you!". FFG can just play this card and make it clear that being a human is not a good thing when your companions are people like the ancient Eldar. When done right, this could be actually even more interesting than a "balanced" race selection.

 

 

Chances are that the Eldar have some major flaw somewhere. It could be their underestimation of humanity by way of their ego or something.

 

 

From what I've read and seen following the 40K mythos over the years, the only aspect of Humanity that isn't underestimated by literally every race out there is their aggression. Seriously, to any alien civilisation outside Imperial borders looking in (not there are many of those left in the 40,000 BC Milky Way), humans look like an unstoppable tide of mass murdering psychotics.

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humans look like an unstoppable tide of mass murdering psychotics.

 

And this is reflected in how all my players play their characters :)

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I have to say, I really enjoy all of the complaining about GW in this thread. It's been a long time since I played tabletop (~10 years) and pretty much everything people have said struck a chord. From the price hikes, White Dwarf going down the shitter, and insane rules changes (latest codex best codex), I'm really glad I got out when I did.  I remember when LotR was released and suddenly I had no interest at all in a third of WD's content.

 

If you can find it, the old Mordheim articles have excellent terrain advice. The how-tos in those are beautiful. Speaking of Mordheim, did you know they're making a video game? I'm excited to see how it goes, but if GW's past video game studio selection is any indication it will be sh*tty shovelware. Relic was a fluke.

 

But back on topic, I'm not optimistic about the future of FFG's 40k RPG line. Me and my group have moved on, and unless they offer something dramatically different in terms of mechanics, we're not coming back. DH1 is showing its age, and we tried OW and didn't like it much, and their new game that hasn't even launched yet is essentially the same game. Which is sad, because I really enjoy the DH setting. I just wish they'd done something new and interesting with it.

 

I didn't see anyone mention Rogue Trader. If FFG sticks to pattern, that's the next game in line for an upgrade. They basically can't use the EotE mechanics for that though, because that's what Edge of the Empire already is. And who would buy a new game that's just a game they already own with a new coat of paint?

 

(side note: Edge of the Empire is excellent and I take back everything bad I said about the funny dice)

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(side note: Edge of the Empire is excellent and I take back everything bad I said about the funny dice)

 

*sneaks in from the EotE forum*

 

Your surrender has been noted and accepted, sir. Welcome aboard!

 

;)

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But back on topic, I'm not optimistic about the future of FFG's 40k RPG line. Me and my group have moved on, and unless they offer something dramatically different in terms of mechanics, we're not coming back. DH1 is showing its age, and we tried OW and didn't like it much, and their new game that hasn't even launched yet is essentially the same game. Which is sad, because I really enjoy the DH setting. I just wish they'd done something new and interesting with it.

 

Same here. However... DH has probably been the major new RPG in the last 10 years or so. It's a valuable IP and will continue in some form. And I am very sure that role-playing as a Space Marine will continue to have a lasting appeal to the fanbase - for as long as the Astartes are the icons of the 40K universe. And it will be a Deathwatch RPG for obvious reasons.

In my mind, these two will live on in some form for many years to come. IF FFG doesnt want to publish a Deathwatch 2E or a Dark Heresy 3E, I am sure there will be a game company to buy the IP.

 

Everything else may or may not be continued. Would be a shame for RT though...

 

Alex

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Everything else may or may not be continued. Would be a shame for RT though...

Especially considering the optimism of the forward inside the RT Core.

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I have to say, I really enjoy all of the complaining about GW in this thread. It's been a long time since I played tabletop (~10 years) and pretty much everything people have said struck a chord. From the price hikes, White Dwarf going down the shitter, and insane rules changes (latest codex best codex), I'm really glad I got out when I did.  I remember when LotR was released and suddenly I had no interest at all in a third of WD's content.

 

White Dwarf actually started life as a RPG magazine, very much like Dragon Magazine did. WD didn't become a Games Workshop specific magazine until about a decade later, in 1988 or so, when both Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer 40,000 exploded in popularity. Until then, Citadel Journal was the Games Workshop wargames magazine. WD actually used to be subtitled "The monthly RPG magazine."

 

Another decade later, around 1998 & coinciding with the 3rd edition of WH40K, WD changed again from being GWs monthly magazine, to being GWs monthly miniatures catalogue. This change was a lot more gradual than the first, but the change essentially consisted of eliminating all content from the magazine that wasn't aimed at selling something to the reader.

 

Incidentally, Dragon Magazine has a similar history of changing from a RPG magazine, to a TSR-specific magazine, to a catalogue of D&D and D&D related products.

 

/old fart mode

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And Citadel Journal was much more of a wargames magazine than White Dwarf ever was. Tips for creating stuff using household items and recycled trash, experimental tabletop rules (drop pod SoB army! though the proto-repentia were also very cool and very different from what ended up in the Codex later on), ...

 

It is really sad to see CJ disappear, and WD transform into .. yeah, a catalogue.

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But to be fair, GW was at the time distributing the games they were featuring in the WD, no? So it was still a form of advertizement. Ah, FFG should do a 40K Roleplay Magazine. Or a Roleplay Magazine.

 

Alex

Edited by ak-73

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Another decade later, around 1998 & coinciding with the 3rd edition of WH40K, WD changed again from being GWs monthly magazine, to being GWs monthly miniatures catalogue. This change was a lot more gradual than the first, but the change essentially consisted of eliminating all content from the magazine that wasn't aimed at selling something to the reader.

 

The decline of White Dwarf is a perfect example of corporate policies that are intended to increase sales actually having the opposite effect and reducing sales. The 'logic' behind banning articles on home-made terrain building, for example, was intended to increase the sales of Citadel's boxed terrain sets and Realm of Battle game board, by creating the impression that these are the only viable options. But at $290US for the Realm of Battle and $30-50 per terrain box, someone new to the game is looking at a minimum $400 investment just for the playing surface- more than enough to deter most potential new customers...

 

The cause of the reduction total disappearance of meaningful articles is less easy to understand. Why doesn't every issue feature an Index Astartes article spotlighting one of the underdeveloped Space Marine Chapters? Or interesting background for Warhammer's Old World setting? Or anything of substance whatsoever? How do the corporate bigwigs not realize that these are the kinds of things they need to get WD to sell, which then increases the number of people exposed to the ads for upcoming products?!

 

And Citadel Journal was much more of a wargames magazine than White Dwarf ever was. Tips for creating stuff using household items and recycled trash, experimental tabletop rules (drop pod SoB army! though the proto-repentia were also very cool and very different from what ended up in the Codex later on), ...

 

Citadel Journal was certainly more focused on the hobby aspects than White Dwarf, but WD still contained a lot of good content 'back in the day'. For example, I remember an article that presented new rules for swamp fighting, which was stated to be the first in a series of articles focusing on different types of exotic battlefields. There were no further articles in the series...

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Citadel Journal was amazing. Especially through the 2nd edition WH40K period, Citadel Journal was pretty much the bestest thing ever. I always thought it was a bit strange it never caught on in the way White Dwarf did, because it was a much better magazine.

 

But to be fair, GW was at the time distributing the games they were featuring in the WD, no? So it was still a form of advertizement. Ah, FFG should do a 40K Roleplay Magazine. Or a Roleplay Magazine.

 

Alex

 

I was going to say no, but on second thought, I don't actually know. WD covered everything RPG related, from D&D to games nobody'd ever heard of, to CYOA books. But GW also had their hands in everything. If they weren't designing it they were producing it, and if they weren't producing it they were distributing it - whatever 'it' was.

 

So... Maybe. But if so, I doubt it was an actual policy.

 

A general RPG magazine of a quality similar to WD or Dragon when those were at their best, would be amazing. I'd definitely subscribe. But I'm guessing that if such a thing was viable, I'd be subscribed to it already. FFG doing a 40K RPG magazine seems even more unrealistic.

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A general RPG magazine of a quality similar to WD or Dragon when those were at their best, would be amazing. I'd definitely subscribe. But I'm guessing that if such a thing was viable, I'd be subscribed to it already. FFG doing a 40K RPG magazine seems even more unrealistic.

 

The golden age WD stuff was quite amateurish content from today's pov though. Still pretty cool. With the advent of the web, it's easy to roll your own - content-wise. You need some folks to make the drawings for your online mag. Authors/contributors are easier to come-by, I think.

 

Just make sure you don't fancy those old mags because the rpg community was more underground back then. :D

 

[EDIT: From wikipedia: "The company's publishing arm also released UK reprints of American RPGs such as Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, Traveller, and Middle-earth Role Playing, which were expensive to import, having previously done so for Dungeons & Dragons from 1977.[9]"Pretty much what they had in WDs.]

 

Alex

Edited by ak-73

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(side note: Edge of the Empire is excellent and I take back everything bad I said about the funny dice)

 

You have finally completely come around to my way of thinking. Welcome, brother (or sister, or whatever you prefer). Tom Cruise and I were floating trying to make a conversion together, but I think the despair, lack of motivation, and other depression symptoms inherent to the tabletop hobbyist kind of put the kibosh on that.

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They are the Eldar's equivalent of the humble Guardsman. Slightly leaning towards the lowly Conscript. 

 

Guardians are commoners who are forced to take up arms because of some big conflict that endangers their Craftworld. They have almost zero military experience and no ranks or anything like that. They are pretty much an irregular force, a militia. Once the fighting is over they go back to their civilian life and IIRC they must give their weapons/armour back too.

 

While they are essentially a militia, many actually have martial experience. Many (maybe even most) will have gone through the Path of the Warrior in earlier stage in their life, and still have some of that experience to draw on. Now, it may have been a long time ago, and the rituals Eldar go through before going to war are specifically designed to create a barrier between their personalities while at war and while at peace, so they may even find it hard to draw fully on the experience, but they are by no means all green.

 

I have to say I don't see why GW doesn't properly support smaller scale game which uses the same miniatures (ala Mordheim). I can kind of see they wouldn't want to suport games which dont obviously feed into the larger games, but why they don't support the games which feed obviously into the larger ones puzzles me.

 

The stuff I most miss from White Dwarf are the background articles, the rules sections, and the tactics discussions (I was never much of a fan of battle reports).

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I have to say I don't see why GW doesn't properly support smaller scale game which uses the same miniatures (ala Mordheim). I can kind of see they wouldn't want to suport games which dont obviously feed into the larger games, but why they don't support the games which feed obviously into the larger ones puzzles me.

 

I agree completely. I'm fairly sure that the lack of any kind of 'entry level' games (i.e. ones requiring less than a $1000US investment for the basics) has to be one of the factors in the decline in sales GW announced a few months ago.

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I have to say I don't see why GW doesn't properly support smaller scale game which uses the same miniatures (ala Mordheim). I can kind of see they wouldn't want to suport games which dont obviously feed into the larger games, but why they don't support the games which feed obviously into the larger ones puzzles me.

 

Economy of scale. Releasing a new game would be costly, even if it used the same minis as the larger wargames. As such products wouldn't (probably) be as popular as the bigger games, GW would be getting less back on their investment. And as they'd essentially be selling the game to the same customers, those sales would be earning them money they'd probably have gotten anyways (instead of spending £200 on 40k this month the customer spent £120 on 40k and £80 on the 40k skirmish rulebook - net result is GW make less money).

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If you can find it, the old Mordheim articles have excellent terrain advice. The how-tos in those are beautiful. Speaking of Mordheim, did you know they're making a video game? I'm excited to see how it goes, but if GW's past video game studio selection is any indication it will be sh*tty shovelware. Relic was a fluke.

 

 

 

Huh, they're also doing a Space Hulk game. Interesting. Though you're right, odds of 'em being any good are slim.

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Economy of scale. Releasing a new game would be costly, even if it used the same minis as the larger wargames.

Quite. The problem is that it assumes that customers who would have bought two GW games, will instead spend that money on just one GW game. As this thread kind of illustrates, that just isn't the case in the long term. And if GW isn't willing to provide choice and variety, others are.

Sadly GW seems to be unable to recognise this.

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If you can find it, the old Mordheim articles have excellent terrain advice. The how-tos in those are beautiful. Speaking of Mordheim, did you know they're making a video game? I'm excited to see how it goes, but if GW's past video game studio selection is any indication it will be sh*tty shovelware. Relic was a fluke.

 

 

 

Huh, they're also doing a Space Hulk game. Interesting. Though you're right, odds of 'em being any good are slim.

 

The Space Hulk game has potential. It's made by the guys who made E.Y.E.: Divine Cybermancy, which, while unpolished and confusing as hell, was a really **** fun game. With a little more direction and pressure to make a coherent game (which I think a big IP like 40k provides), they could make something pretty **** great.

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Economy of scale. Releasing a new game would be costly, even if it used the same minis as the larger wargames.

Quite. The problem is that it assumes that customers who would have bought two GW games, will instead spend that money on just one GW game. As this thread kind of illustrates, that just isn't the case in the long term. And if GW isn't willing to provide choice and variety, others are.

 

Not exactly. While the customer might have spent more overall on two games than just the one made available by GW, the company could still have made less money due to the increased cost of the second game. Games like epic, battlefleet gothic or bloodbowl just don't sell in the same kind of numbers as 40k or WFB. This means that the cost per unit is much higher and the profits much lower.

 

I think the sad fact is that this isn't a matter of GW being 'unable to recognise' a potential source of profit so much as GW having carefully done the math and realised they were wasting money on less popular products. Which is a shame, as those products were often (IMO) much better than their main releases.

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Not exactly. While the customer might have spent more overall on two games than just the one made available by GW, the company could still have made less money due to the increased cost of the second game. Games like epic, battlefleet gothic or bloodbowl just don't sell in the same kind of numbers as 40k or WFB. This means that the cost per unit is much higher and the profits much lower.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all :)

What I was trying to say is that it compromises GWs ability to retain its customer base. When GW only offers one of a range of the products the typical GW customer is interested in, that customer will eventually buy into a product that isn't GWs. Worse yet, for GW, is that there's a distinct possibility that customer won't return to GWs product and is simply lost to them forever - or at least until they expand their product line.

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Not exactly. While the customer might have spent more overall on two games than just the one made available by GW, the company could still have made less money due to the increased cost of the second game. Games like epic, battlefleet gothic or bloodbowl just don't sell in the same kind of numbers as 40k or WFB. This means that the cost per unit is much higher and the profits much lower.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all :)

What I was trying to say is that it compromises GWs ability to retain its customer base. When GW only offers one of a range of the products the typical GW customer is interested in, that customer will eventually buy into a product that isn't GWs. Worse yet, for GW, is that there's a distinct possibility that customer won't return to GWs product and is simply lost to them forever - or at least until they expand their product line.

Ah, I see. I think GW realise that, they just don't care all that much. They fully expect to lose most of their customers after a few years - teenage boys who play for a while, but move on to other activities. In that regard GW are not just competing with other wargame companies, but with MMOs, board games, RPGs, beer and girls. Rather than fight that, they just concentrate their efforts on wringing as much money out of their customers (and their customer's parents) while they still have their attention.

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I think the sad fact is that this isn't a matter of GW being 'unable to recognise' a potential source of profit so much as GW having carefully done the math and realised they were wasting money on less popular products. Which is a shame, as those products were often (IMO) much better than their main releases.

 

I'm skeptical that this is the case, given the fairly recent release of the (expensive-to-produce, incredibly ill-conceived) Dreadfleet. Not to mention that if they had done the math as carefully as you state, their sales shouldn't be in decline- at least not as much as they apparently are.

 

Offshoot games are expensive to produce, but Mordheim and Necromunda were profitable; more importantly, they lured people into trying GW's 'big two'. There's no 'gateway' today- it's either "Fork over a thousand bucks for the basics" or "Find another game". Increasingly the latter.

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