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Hrathen

I want more Stealth Devices, but I don't want to spend $35 for two more cards

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The only problem I see with pilot cards is the card board counter that comes with each pilot.  to create the card board counter and have it die cut is an issue with many games.  I would love to see packs of upgrade cards.  When I emaild FFG several months ago to see if it might happen their answer was there are no plans at this time for card packs.

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It's the converse, actually. I have to buy multiple copies of a ship I do not want (HWK) to get cards that I do want.

 

The only people forced to buy ships for cards are tournament players which make up only a small number of the customer base.  So any sale of card packs is really only hitting a small portion of their market.  Unless tournaments and the game grows significantly more, than a card pack is not going to be a cost effective solution.

Edited by Eltnot

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It's the converse, actually. I have to buy multiple copies of a ship I do not want (HWK) to get cards that I do want.

 

The only people forced to buy ships for cards are tournament players which make up only a small number of the customer base.  So any sale of card packs is really only hitting a small portion of their market.  Unless tournaments and the game grows significantly more, than a card pack is not going to be a cost effective solution.

 

Agreed - I play this for fun - powergaming takes the fun out of gaming with friends

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I'm a bit surprised that a secondary market hasn't sprung up for this game yet.  With as many ships as some of us own, you would think we would have more cards to spare to ease the impact on our wallets a bit

 

I've been considering it myself as a means to make some of the less outright useful purchases more palatable (a 3rd firespray, 2nd falcon, 3rd/4th shuttle, etc).  No one wants to spend $20+ just for an advanced sensors card, but $3-$5 seems pretty reasonable (in comparison) and if you can break up a few of the more desirable cards into separate sales for $2-$5 each I bet you could recoup a decent chunk of the purchase.

 

For non-tournament players who want a bunch of models and don't mind proxying the cards, you could probably cut the costs significantly by selling off some of the most prized upgrades.

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Quite honestly, I chalk this up as the cost of the license. I think Push the Limit shows, that some patience is helpful, as some of the key cards will be reprinted. That doesn't help those that want the cards NOW, though.

 

In the end, I will take FFG's method of encouraging multiple purchases, over a random, CMG model. This way, we have the choice, and do not have to chase what we want.

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Lucky for you 2 will be packaged with the upcoming Imperial aces release! 2 interceptor repaints and some awesome cards.

I didn't know that.  I will definitely be getting that.

 

Dang, now I have to change my rant to "Why hasn't the Imperial Aces been released yet! Rant, Rant, Rant"

 

 

Wait a second, I may not have gotten to the second page yet but I thought Imperial Aces brings with it two copies of PtL.  I don't remember seeing it also bring two copies of Stealth Device.  If it does that those four cards can make the set worth getting even without all the other goodies.

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The problem I see with selling card packs is people using proxy models instead of the miniatures. That doesn't make X-Wing profitable for FFG.

 

It's kind of a pain, yeah, but it's the same reason Lego doesn't offer all of its minifigures separately. It's marketing.

 

/shrug

 

I'm not thrilled about it, but I'll roll with it.

 

Besides, it's a great way to force you to work with what you have. At least in my case...

 

My two pennies. Cheers.

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Star Trek HeroClix Tactics ships run around $5 a box.  The EXACT SAME MODELS, repackaged for Attack Wing, are running $15 each.

 

Selling in bulk defrays cost.  There are multiple ways a producer can do this.  They can make you need more X, so you buy more X.  They can make X expendable, so you have to buy more X to replace the ones that broke.  The very creative way that Wizards of the Coast invented about 25 years or so ago was to may you buy a ton of A, B, C, D, and E if you wanted to get X.

 

FFG moved away from random packaging to accomplish that, but they still do it.  The idea of card packs, or not having to buy miniatures, is fun - but minis are what make the money, and the setup and production costs on those are going to be the same no matter how many get bought.  What does that mean?  Card packs takes away that push to buy more ships.  Sell fewer ships, those ships get sold for more money, and you're looking at $20 or maybe even more per ship instead of $15.

 

That's not defending FFG - I don't especially care for it either.  But it's very much the financial reality of it.  Cards are the hook to get players to buy more models, simple as that, and you can't sell fewer models without an overall impact to the economics of the game.

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But as it is i just play with friends and we proxy cards for the mean time. (as i am not aware of any tournaments in NZ)

Not sure where in NZ you are, but I've played in two X-wing tournaments here in Chch in the last 6 months or so, so they are around.

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I'm a bit surprised that a secondary market hasn't sprung up for this game yet.  With as many ships as some of us own, you would think we would have more cards to spare to ease the impact on our wallets a bit

 

I've been considering it myself as a means to make some of the less outright useful purchases more palatable (a 3rd firespray, 2nd falcon, 3rd/4th shuttle, etc).  No one wants to spend $20+ just for an advanced sensors card, but $3-$5 seems pretty reasonable (in comparison) and if you can break up a few of the more desirable cards into separate sales for $2-$5 each I bet you could recoup a decent chunk of the purchase.

 

For non-tournament players who want a bunch of models and don't mind proxying the cards, you could probably cut the costs significantly by selling off some of the most prized upgrades.

I think the main reason for that is the card distribution, except for the extreme cases ("mostly model collector"<>"tournament player with specific list needs") most players have too many or too few of the same cards to really create a market and they can live with the range of cards they have. A market needs a more diverse supply and demand situation, e.g., offering card packs (randomized or otherwise) which could produce the necessary card set differences.

On the other hand, creating a 2nd hand market isn't necessarily what's in the interest of FFG, they probably prefer people deal with their 1st hand market. So far it seems to be working ;)

Edited by Asgo

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I too have wondered about the absence of a trading market amongst the various communities, but it's likely due to the fact that even if you don't want the unique pilot card, the pilot base token needed to play that unique pilot also has the generic pilot on the reverse, which most people I imagine want to keep.

 

I first got into the game very cheaply via Ebay, but it was a Polish edition of the core set. So I'm quite acutely aware of the limitations of the base tokens unfortunately (I'm unable to field 6 TIE academies for instance unless I want to use the Polish tokens).

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If you went with your suggestion of selling all the cards from wave one, there would be little to no demand for wave one ships.

That doesn't really work though.

It's not like the cards are the only thing you need. If I want to put together a list of 4 Y-Wings, I can't do that unless I own 4 Y-Wings. Having the pilots doesn't help me without the model and the other things that go with it.

What you are saying is the same basic argument others use when talking about PDF versions of RPG or Tabletop games... By making a PDF version will allow people to get pirated copies. But there's already pirated copies out there so an official PDF version won't change anything.

In this case, I can already find the card images on the net easily enough and print them. Or just print them out from any one of a number of X-Wing squad builder sites. Being able to buy the pilot and upgrade cards is not going to stop people from buying the models.

Same goes for Wave 2, just because I could buy a pack with 4 stealth devices doesn't mean I won't also buy a Firespray or 3, not if I want to play with that many.

The only loss of sales they'd reasonably see is the sales of people who need 4 Advanced Sensors because they play in a tourney, and need to buy 4 Lambada Shuttles.

Edited by VanorDM

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Cards are the hook to get players to buy more models, simple as that, and you can't sell fewer models without an overall impact to the economics of the game.

Yes, but each wave has a shelf life. A point in which a large % of the sales of that wave have already happened.

X-Wings don't have an expiration date, I have 4 X-Wings and short of the new rule sets coming out giving me a reason to buy more, I'll never buy another X-Wing. So while this might mean a over all loss of sales, at some point the sales of the card packs could very well make up for the fairly small loss of sales of models a year or so old, because at that point everyone who is going to buy them already has.

Again, it's also not like you can proxie a model anywhere as easily as you can a card. It's simple to proxie a card, just take slip of paper and write "PtL" on it. It's not nearly as easy or pleasent to use a X-Wing with a X-Wing cardboard base as a Y-Wing.

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If you went with your suggestion of selling all the cards from wave one, there would be little to no demand for wave one ships.

That doesn't really work though.

It's not like the cards are the only thing you need. If I want to put together a list of 4 Y-Wings, I can't do that unless I own 4 Y-Wings. Having the pilots doesn't help me without the model and the other things that go with it.

What you are saying is the same basic argument others use when talking about PDF versions of RPG or Tabletop games... By making a PDF version will allow people to get pirated copies. But there's already pirated copies out there so an official PDF version won't change anything.

In this case, I can already find the card images on the net easily enough and print them. Or just print them out from any one of a number of X-Wing squad builder sites. Being able to buy the pilot and upgrade cards is not going to stop people from buying the models.

Same goes for Wave 2, just because I could buy a pack with 4 stealth devices doesn't mean I won't also buy a Firespray or 3, not if I want to play with that many.

The only loss of sales they'd reasonably see is the sales of people who need 4 Advanced Sensors because they play in a tourney, and need to buy 4 Lambada Shuttles.

 

I had a complete Xerox'd copy of Unearthed Arcana for AD&D waaaaaaaay back in 1988-ish. It was given to me (and I was young enough to not understand the implications). The RPG industry used to (still do?) cost PDFs for half the dead-tree version. It's the clowns at Amazon that have screwed up the model.

 

In (Classic) Battletech, it's quite common to use proxies for the minis. It's never an issue. This whole "What you see is what you get" and "You can only use, and must use, our licensed product" is a Games Workshop-inspired phenomenon. It's very unfriendly. For tournaments? Sure. But casual play? Please.

 

FFG is deluding themselves if they think I'm going to buy 4 Lambdas or 4 Firesprays. Yeah, there are dig-its out there who will, but I sure won't.

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Cards are the hook to get players to buy more models, simple as that, and you can't sell fewer models without an overall impact to the economics of the game.

 

Not really. My sons and I can't zoom around the house with cards.

Edited by Hawkeye88

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In (Classic) Battletech, it's quite common to use proxies for the minis.

Perhaps but given the relatively cheep cost of X-Wing models and how easy it is to get them today, provided they're in stock of course. Plus how nice they look, I just don't see a lot of people using proxies very often for the models.

Maybe it's just the group I play with, but for us, the models are a big draw to the game, because they look so good.

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I don't think it's the quality of the models that is in question here, they are amazing. But at some point, you acquire more than you need and that's primarily determined by the standard 100 pt game. The rebel ships hit this ceiling sooner than the imperials, so ultimately FFG will have to think about how to entice players to keep buying the ships - either by producing repainted versions or increasing the pts - otherwise they'd be flooding the secondary market with models which ideally they will want to sell. There's somebody on ebay right now who's selling more than a dozen card-less ships.

 

At this point it's probably a good idea to distinguish between people wanting pilot cards (which are tricky because you need to have the base tokens as well) and the upgrade cards. I don't see how producing upgrade only packs would negatively impact on FFG sales of the models, as I can't imagine there are many people willing to spend that kind of money for advanced sensors or stealth upgrade (as evidenced on this thread).

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It's not like the cards are the only thing you need. If I want to put together a list of 4 Y-Wings, I can't do that unless I own 4 Y-Wings. Having the pilots doesn't help me without the model and the other things that go with it.

What if you want to run 4 X-wings, all with R2 Astromechs?  You have to buy Y-wings.  The card selection provides a second vector for someone to "need" a pack, which means more reasons for people to buy that ship.  Not many people are likely to want to run a 4 Lambda squad, but 4 Blues with Advanced Sensors appeals to a lot of people.

 

Battletech is a silly comparison.  Battletech doesn't require models - the game itself started with cardboard standees for 'mechs, and the minis aren't even sold by the same company today.  It has as much to do with X-wing's sales model as Spades does.

 

Yes, people can proxy when they can proxy.  Many don't want to, even in friendly games where they can.  Many others can't, as official events require official materials.  There really can't be any dispute that the current scheme sells extra ships - the number of people with multiple Advanced Sensors is simple proof all by itself.  Asking for card packs is, in essence, demanding that FFG sell fewer models.  Again, the models are what cost for production, and selling more of them obviously means more profit for them, but also lower prices for us.

 

On the secondary market, I think the reason there isn't one is simple - there's no supply for it.  With a few notable exceptions, the various packs do a good job of covering what you need to play.  The places they don't are typically specific upgrades that are highly desired but attached to ships that aren't, or are expensive - Advanced Sensors, Push the Limit, Stealth Device, and Engine Upgrade come to mind.  That means that the people who have those cards probably want them, and any reseller knows that a large percentage of the box value lies in that one card.  A shop was selling specific cards on eBay a while back - Advanced Sensors was $15.

 

There's no market because there's no supply for them.  Even people who are OK proxying want the cards - if they didn't, then we wouldn't have these topics popping up, right?  Everyone who didn't play tournaments would sell all their cards and proxy everything.  But people do.  So no supply.

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Asking for card packs is, in essence, demanding that FFG sell fewer models.

Yes, of course the current system helps sell models that people wouldn't otherwise buy 4 of, there's no question that the system works. But the loss of sales is not an issue if they release card packs for a wave before that wave has passed it's shelf life.

At this point, they've likely sold a good % of the total number of Tie Advanced they're going to sell. Sure there's people still getting into the game, and those people will still buy 1-2 Advanced because they want the models.

I am not saying they should release a card pack with Advanced Sensors today, next week or even 2 months from now. But at this point, I don't believe that a card pack containing only Wave 1 pilots and upgrades will have any real impact on the number of Wave 1 models they sell.

If they were to add in something like alt-art or even a new pilot per ship, any loss of sales would more then be made up with the sale of the card packs.

Then sometime after say the new Cap ships come out, they release a wave 2 card pack. Then 3-5 months after Wave 4 comes out they release a wave 3 card pack.

There will come a point in time in which very few Wave 1 ships are sold, because the vast majority of people have all of them that they want, same for Wave 2, 3 and so on. Once the market reaches that point, then releasing a card pack is not going to hurt their sales in any meaningful way.

Edited by VanorDM

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How many cards are there that you really need to buy "extra" ships to get because it is critically important to a common build type for your chosen faction?  Advanced sensors is the only one that really comes to mind as being a major game-changer stuck on a ship you probably wouldn't buy too many copies of (on the opposite faction as well).  Perhaps FFG underestimated how good/popular its use would be

 

You could make a milder case for push the limit (soon to be lessened by Imperial Aces), stealth device, shield upgrade, and maybe gunner or recon specialist, but I wouldn't really say you have to buy a lot of extra ships to have the right cards play the game, even competitively.  Not buying a ton of ships may lock you out of few options, but there are plenty of successful builds out there that don't require much beyond the ships you are using and maybe a couple upgrade cards from other ships, often within your own faction.  Just look at the top 8 world championship placings.
 

Just because it is expensive to run 4 interceptors with push the limit or 4 B-wings with advanced sensors doesn't mean you can't compete on a budget with many other builds.  I know it can be annoying when you come up with some interesting-sounding build that you want to try out, but it's still a little strange how often this complaint comes up when the general trend has been to limit the use of upgrade cards in favor of putting more ships on the table.  Basically, it's a slight annoyance that gets blown out of proportion and made to sound like a critical disaster that would keep people from being able to play the game

Edited by Effenhoog

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Basically, it's a slight annoyance that gets blown out of proportion and made to sound like a critical disaster that would keep people from being able to play the game

True, it's not that big of a deal. As I said before using a proxie card is pretty simple to do. Heck for friendly games I can likely just remember what I have and not even bother with the card if it comes to that.

I do think Advanced Sensors is a good example of a bad deal... You have what is arguably the best upgrade in Wave 3, and put it in the most expensive and by and large the lease desirable ship in wave 3. My apologizes to those who are big fans of the Great White Space Hippo, but when you factor the price vs how popular the ship is... It's likely to be the worse seller of Wave 3.

Push the Limit didn't seem quite so bad, you got a ok ship, and for the lower price. Buying 4 A-Wings isn't quite the same thing as buying 4 Shuttles at twice the price.

Again, it's not like the current system is driving people way in droves, but there are people who are leaving the game or not getting into it because of this. Not many perhaps but there are some. Then you have the Transport and CR90 coming out... Are we going to find that there's a card or cards in there that we want 4 of, but are looking at $40-$80 effectively per card?

In the long run, Wave X card packs with enough extra stuff in them, released say 6-9 months after a wave comes out, could actually be a net profit for FFG.

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Honestly, the want of card packs reminds me of all the debates about LCG Core Sets. People wanting a playset of the cards from the core, would have to buy multiple core sets. Which also had a ton of waste to it. And FFG has pretty much said no to a "Playset addition" pack to those Core sets. I don't see them changing their stance with X-wing. And after looking at some of what they've done with the Star Wars LCG, I wonder if upping the demand for a variety of ships is their way of offsetting the cost of the license.

 

And in the end, I will the best I can with what I have. The upgrades are surprisingly small factor in how many ships I buy. I'm happy with my one Falcon, one Shuttle, and 2 Firesprays. If that means I won't be able to run Advanced Sensors with my 3 B-wings, that's fine. If I want to run my 3 B-wings, I will figure out something else. I understand how it annoys those with the super competitive itch, but I'm finding I like some of the restrictions I have put on myself due to my buying habits.

 

Though, the only complaint about the card distribution is the Y-wing. I bought 3. I have way, way, way too many Proton Torpedoes. I will be happy to never see a Proton Torpedo printed again. Stupid B-wing.

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I'm not sure how you figure that, Vanor.

If I have no TIE Advanced today, then decide that I need Squad Leader for my Bomber squad, I but a TIE Advanced. That's a sold model, compared to one of your card packs.

The only way card packs don't reduce model sales is if nobody is going to buy anything at all if it comes in a box with a model. I think that's a very big stretch to think that will ever be the case.

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It's not like the cards are the only thing you need. If I want to put together a list of 4 Y-Wings, I can't do that unless I own 4 Y-Wings. Having the pilots doesn't help me without the model and the other things that go with it.

What if you want to run 4 X-wings, all with R2 Astromechs?  You have to buy Y-wings.  The card selection provides a second vector for someone to "need" a pack, which means more reasons for people to buy that ship.  Not many people are likely to want to run a 4 Lambda squad, but 4 Blues with Advanced Sensors appeals to a lot of people.

 

Battletech is a silly comparison.  Battletech doesn't require models - the game itself started with cardboard standees for 'mechs, and the minis aren't even sold by the same company today.  It has as much to do with X-wing's sales model as Spades does.

 

Yes, people can proxy when they can proxy.  Many don't want to, even in friendly games where they can.  Many others can't, as official events require official materials.  There really can't be any dispute that the current scheme sells extra ships - the number of people with multiple Advanced Sensors is simple proof all by itself.  Asking for card packs is, in essence, demanding that FFG sell fewer models.  Again, the models are what cost for production, and selling more of them obviously means more profit for them, but also lower prices for us.

 

On the secondary market, I think the reason there isn't one is simple - there's no supply for it.  With a few notable exceptions, the various packs do a good job of covering what you need to play.  The places they don't are typically specific upgrades that are highly desired but attached to ships that aren't, or are expensive - Advanced Sensors, Push the Limit, Stealth Device, and Engine Upgrade come to mind.  That means that the people who have those cards probably want them, and any reseller knows that a large percentage of the box value lies in that one card.  A shop was selling specific cards on eBay a while back - Advanced Sensors was $15.

 

There's no market because there's no supply for them.  Even people who are OK proxying want the cards - if they didn't, then we wouldn't have these topics popping up, right?  Everyone who didn't play tournaments would sell all their cards and proxy everything.  But people do.  So no supply.

 

If I want 4 Y-Wings I'll buy 4 Y-Wings. I'm simply not going to buy 4 Lambdas, regardless of the cards. Not every model needs to sell the same number. Some models are inherently more useful than others, especially if you're trying to "recreate a scene from the movie." It's FFG's prerogative to require official product only for tourneys, but that's just another reason I won't play tourneys. If an opponent refuses proxies in a friendly pick-up game, I won't play with them. They're already told me all I need to know about their sportsmanship.

 

Battledroids came with two plastic model kits. BattleTech was the 2nd edition. It came with cardboard cut-outs and and a few minor changes to the rules. Ral Partha produced metal minis under license for FASA. Ral Partha was bought by FASA. WizKids, founded by the guy who founded FASA, bought FASA and acquired Ral Partha with it. Then they spun off Ral Partha as its own company, now known as Iron Wind Metals. And the kicker? It's the same people sculpting, casting and running the business the whole time.

 

Why do I mention this? Because you talk about BT as if the game makers didn't make their own models. While this is technically true, it's entirely irrelevant. It's an almost identical situation as FFG has. FFG does not make their own stuff. They contract to a Chinese company for manufacturing. The difference between the two is that FFG puts their own name on these products, where FASA let RP put their name on it.

 

This is the important part, which I bring up because you brought it up: I am unaware of any game that actually requires minis, including Star Wars X-Wing Miniatures. The model is a place-holder, nothing more. You could just as easily play it with paper chits. Visually it wouldn't be as exciting, but mechanically it would be identical.

 

And, yes, actually I can dispute that the current system sells extra ships. No, it does not. First, you have people that simply won't buy something they're not interested in simply to get a card (me, for example). Moreover, as someone mentioned, there is the opportunity cost (which was incorrectly exampled). Restricted to just the game, the opportunity cost of a Lambda is $30 worth of product. That could be a Firespray. Or it could be an A-Wing and B-Wing. Or nice templates and a TIE Interceptor. Or whatever else adds up to $30. Beyond that, what happens when someone is only going to spend $15? That's their budget. For whatever reason, they're simply not spending more than that. From FFG's standpoint, would they rather a sale now? Or hold off another month? Buy now, of course. Who knows what's going to happen in a month. Priorities change in a month. When I look at it and see that, in order to get this one card that I want, I have to spend $30 and get a fig I don't want (which I can't sell because the only reason anyone bought it to begin with was that one card and some people just have to have it all), I'm much more likely to just turn away from the game entirely and find one that doesn't do that.

 

Make a product that your customers want to buy and make it easy for them to give you their money. Do not engage in behavior that causes them to resent you. Bundling has its place, but so does a la carte.

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