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GauntZero

Wishlist for future companion supplement

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I think it's actually wonderfully Hobbesian that Heresy is so vague.  We're effectively talking about an organization whose sovereign has no actual power beyond being a gigantic light house and whose denizens are in a perpetual state of nature with one another.

 

Simply put: Heresy is defined purely as being in opposition to whatever a person in a higher position feels in that particular moment.  "Eggs on peanut butter?  HERESY! *BAM*"  Sure, there's chaos and all kinds of other things, but rooting out heretics can, in this setting, more or less mean whatever the GM likes at the particular moment.  What makes it even more sinister is the mixture of pseudo-faith in the power setting--specifically the shakey usage of faith as an instrument of power to control trillions--a virtue of faith that Machiavelli was happy to point out.

Edited by Elanthanis
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or seeing a move away from the Imperial Creed as being beneficial for the Imperium (something the living emperor was quite adamant about)

 

Only in some Black Library novels.

 

I agree with your sentiment, however!

 

 

...and in the Radicals handbook. Recongregationism, Alamathianism, and other ressurectionist cults would all fall into this.

For the record I have never read a black library book, so it stands to reasons my knowledge/interpretation comes from another source.

Edited by Cail

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...and in the Radicals handbook. Recongregationism, Alamathianism, and other ressurectionist cults would all fall into this.

 

The Radical's Handbook, really? I'll have to take another look at it, then, as I can't remember anything like that from there. Then again, my memory can sometimes be unreliable.

 

The Horus Heresy novels are extremely popular right now - I would have thought you may have just picked it up on some forum if you haven't read them yourself. So, exactly like me.  :lol:

 

I only remember resurrectionist cults like the Recongregators to be about, y'know, the Emperor's resurrection. But perhaps that is just what I recall from the Thorian Handbook.

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While the idea of resurrecting the Emperor is considered "Radical", it would actually depend on the methods and actions that one would be willing to take in order to get this done. I have a feeling though that the Lords of Terra would not want to see this done regardless if it was possible or not and that to me would be considered corruption because the Emperor's resurrection would absolutely be the best thing for the Imperium.

 

Some of those Lords however might not be too confident that the Emperor would look upon them kindly though if he were to return. Besides, they would lose much of their power and that (to them) is not acceptable.

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While the idea of resurrecting the Emperor is considered "Radical", it would actually depend on the methods and actions that one would be willing to take in order to get this done. I have a feeling though that the Lords of Terra would not want to see this done regardless if it was possible or not and that to me would be considered corruption because the Emperor's resurrection would absolutely be the best thing for the Imperium.

 

Some of those Lords however might not be too confident that the Emperor would look upon them kindly though if he were to return. Besides, they would lose much of their power and that (to them) is not acceptable.

This is a fairly large understatement! The Emperor, At least as he is presented in the novels I've read; Would be apalled in the extreme at what humanity had become. In fact, The Emperor would be labeled a Heretic since his first course of action would be to lead a rebellion against the existing order! (As he did at the end of the age of darkness.) If he were successful, The Ecclesiarchy and all that it represents would cease to exist! (The Emperor was manifestly Atheistic! Not because he didn't believe in gods but rather because he knew that the only true "gods" were in fact entities of chaos!) 

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...and in the Radicals handbook. Recongregationism, Alamathianism, and other ressurectionist cults would all fall into this.

 

The Radical's Handbook, really? I'll have to take another look at it, then, as I can't remember anything like that from there. Then again, my memory can sometimes be unreliable.

 

The Horus Heresy novels are extremely popular right now - I would have thought you may have just picked it up on some forum if you haven't read them yourself. So, exactly like me.  :lol:

 

I only remember resurrectionist cults like the Recongregators to be about, y'know, the Emperor's resurrection. But perhaps that is just what I recall from the Thorian Handbook.

 

 

Just wanting to say this because the Regongregators are my favorite faction of the Inquisition.

 

Recongregationism isnt into that kind of 'resurrection' they seek a 'resurrection of the Imperium'. They look out and take note that the Imperium is decayed to the point of collapse and pour their efforts to remaking the Imperium...in short they are a bunch of Inquisitors that follow the radical (and heretical) philosophy of Revolution and Renewal.

 

Their motto could be summed up as: "**** is Broke. We Is Fixin` It!"

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Alright, I've checked the Radical's Handbook, but all I found was a vague reference to "dictates from the Great Crusade" used as evidence by the Seculos Attendous. However, if these dictates were truly that obvious, would it not stand to reason that everyone would share their views? This way it seems more like a minority interpretation - which would fit to how those dictates were originally presented by Games Workshop in the Index Astartes article on the Word Bearers, before Black Library began publishing the Horus Heresy.

 

That being said, the Radical's Handbook was published in 2009, which was after the Horus Heresy series began, which means it is certainly possible that the authors of RH have adopted the novels' stance. :)

 

If he were successful, The Ecclesiarchy and all that it represents would cease to exist!

 

That's a fairly large risk, given the role faith has played as a stabilising factor throughout the past 10.000 years or so! Do you really believe the Emperor - even assuming, for the sake of argument, that he truly was that much against religion, and that he would really come back somehow - would fail to see the importance and effect of faith on his people? Granted, he made mistakes before, but ...  :huh:

 

Recongregationism isnt into that kind of 'resurrection' they seek a 'resurrection of the Imperium'. 

 

It's possible I misinterpreted the Thorian Handbook's mention of the Recongregators messing with Divine Vessels for the Emperor's resurrection.

That being said, given that this aspect is missing completely from the Radical's Handbook in Dark Heresy, it seems it does not exist in this version of 40k anyways, or at least not officially.

Edited by Lynata

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If he were successful, The Ecclesiarchy and all that it represents would cease to exist!

 

That's a fairly large risk, given the role faith has played as a stabilising factor throughout the past 10.000 years or so! Do you really believe the Emperor - even assuming, for the sake of argument, that he truly was that much against religion, and that he would really come back somehow - would fail to see the importance and effect of faith on his people? Granted, he made mistakes before, but ...  :huh:

 

The Imperial truth by definition (In the novels at least) forbade the worship of "false idolatry". This was further proven when the Emperor himself rebuked the word bearers for their attempt to create a deific faith around him. This was at a time when Lorgar's teaching's would have only served to solidify the Emperor's political power even further! So yes, I believe he would rebel against the established order especially the Ecclesiarchy! It is an interesting Irony that much of the Ecclesiarchy's "Canon" comes from the book of Lorgar which the Emperor rebuked!

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For that question, the Emperor's original intentions are irrelevant. But, so you say that he would indeed risk civil war and the entire realm collapsing just to push this decree? Even after seeing what stability has come out of the Imperial Creed acting as a sort of "counter-faith" to the influence of Chaos? Even after hearing of the Sisters of Battle, who in spite of lower numbers are apparently way more loyal than his finest Space Marines (of which fully half went over to Chaos - which is actually more than the normal human Imperial Army attached to the Legions, of which only a third deserted to Chaos), thanks to their religious zeal?

 

Well, I suppose it's possible. People may have principles, and enforce them even against better judgement.

 

It is an interesting Irony that much of the Ecclesiarchy's "Canon" comes from the book of Lorgar which the Emperor rebuked!

 

Really? Upon hearing it, I found that to be a rather boring idea, and ultimately just yet another attempt at putting a SPESS MEHREEN stamp on an aspect of the Imperium that had previously been spared.

 

That being said, I wouldn't believe this to be the case even under the perspective of the novels. Unless those books also change the original description of how the Ecclesiarchy came to be, the Imperial Creed is a colourful collection of principles collected from numerous cults that have independently risen up after the Emperor's sacrifice - and given how the Imperium went to great lengths to expunge the Traitor Legions and their legacy from most official records, I doubt that the Ecclesiarchy's founder, Imperial Army officer and Terran Siege veteran Fatidicus, would simply base his faith on a book that was essentially written by the arch-enemy, especially as Lorgar doesn't strike me as the type who wouldn't put their name on that book.

 

Call it denial if you will. For me, the idea that this book would in any way be related to the Ecclesiarchy is a huge mental leap based on nothing else than the assumption that religions cannot develop independently - which is "disproven" by the Ecclesiarchy's origin story in GW's own codices, as well as our own real life history.

 

Of course it always comes down to a matter of interpretation, and anyone can discard any source they dislike, though - this here is just an attempt to "unify" the Horus Heresy novels with GW's own material, for the sake of this one argument. Though I would much rather just forget about the former, given the ... weird ideas those writers have introduced with their Perpetuals and their version of Ollanius Pius and the Movie Marine heroics etc. It reads more like a superhero comic than 40k, but that may just be due to my own preference for a more gritty and down-to-earth vision of the 41st millennium...

 

Sorry, I'm rambling again.  :lol: As you may have guessed, I'm not entirely happy with the direction the setting has taken in the minds of BL novels in general, who seem to be more popular than the studio material these days. Matter of preferences, but it means I feel "left out".

Edited by Lynata

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The Emperor came to power at the end of the age of Darkness through the means of a civil war. Why would he shy away from it now? I'm not saying it would be easy but the Emperor did not seem to me to be a politics of convenience kind of guy! He might in deed try to convert the Imperial creed back to an Imperial truth but if (and when) that failed I am quite sure he would not be afraid to resort to violence. Besides, I only noted the Ecclesiarchy as ONE of the many organizations that would suffer under his return. The Lords of Terra themselves rely heavily on the Emperor being an inactive figurehead in order to maintain their own power! Would they just let the reincarnated Emperor just waltz in and take over? I highly doubt it!

 

           I think the Emperor's return to power would start just like a heretical cult minus the blood sacrifice and such. They would seek to gain followers from the mass of humanity and thus eventually come to the attention of the Inquisition. With the Emperor's massive wisdom and Psychic power he would easily evade any "low level" attempts at impeding him which would bring in the higher echelons of the Inquisition. This would very rapidly escalate into a full blown "Rebellion against the Imperium" Despite the fact that the Emperor himself is leading it!

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The Emperor came to power at the end of the age of Darkness through the means of a civil war. Why would he shy away from it now?

 

Well, back then he had the military means to win that conflict, and a bunch of ardent followers. Who would stick with him against almost the entire Imperium, including the Adeptus Mechanicus, another group that worships the Emperor as a god? I don't think there is a single world or Imperial Guard regiment not loyal to the faith. Only the Space Marines stand apart - and not even all of them.

 

It just doesn't sound like a conflict that could possibly be won. The only winner here would be Chaos itself.

 

 

I think the Emperor's return to power would start just like a heretical cult minus the blood sacrifice and such. They would seek to gain followers from the mass of humanity and thus eventually come to the attention of the Inquisition. With the Emperor's massive wisdom and Psychic power he would easily evade any "low level" attempts at impeding him which would bring in the higher echelons of the Inquisition. This would very rapidly escalate into a full blown "Rebellion against the Imperium" Despite the fact that the Emperor himself is leading it!

 

Ah, so more like a shadow war than a full-scale military conflict? Yes, I've heard that idea before, and it does have some appeal. Needless to say, though, this so-called "Emperor" who seeks to forment internal unrest rather than meet with his own High Lords would surely be branded an agent of Chaos. It would not be the first time the Ruinous Powers sought to mislead people by posing as something holy. ;)

 

I'm sure it would make for an interesting Dark Heresy campaign, though, regardless of whether this Emperor is the real thing or not. Imagine the roleplaying possibilities!

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Well, once the Emperor rose from his Golden Throne, the powered routes through space would cease to exist and planets would be cut off from each other until the damaged machinery around the throne was repaired. Also, the holes in the psychic shield would also be reopened allowing Daemons to pour through once more. It's kind of a problematic situation. Revive the Emperor and risk the Imperium shutting down while daemons begin a siege on Terra or keep him enslaved to the Throne. Only problem is, the Emperor is the only one who knows how to repair it.

 

If all of those issues were circumvented, I'm sure the Emperor's first line of business would be to try and assemble or ascertain the whereabouts of the remaining Primarches. If Roboute Guilliman is not already "dead", the Emperor may have knowledge of how to properly heal him. Same goes for the Salamander's Primarch.  

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Well, once the Emperor rose from his Golden Throne, the powered routes through space would cease to exist and planets would be cut off from each other until the damaged machinery around the throne was repaired. Also, the holes in the psychic shield would also be reopened allowing Daemons to pour through once more. It's kind of a problematic situation. Revive the Emperor and risk the Imperium shutting down while daemons begin a siege on Terra or keep him enslaved to the Throne. Only problem is, the Emperor is the only one who knows how to repair it.

 

If all of those issues were circumvented, I'm sure the Emperor's first line of business would be to try and assemble or ascertain the whereabouts of the remaining Primarches. If Roboute Guilliman is not already "dead", the Emperor may have knowledge of how to properly heal him. Same goes for the Salamander's Primarch.  

This is an interesting thought! Any Primarch that the Emperor recovered would bring his Legion and probably any of it's (known) successors along with him! There are quite a few possibilities: Leman Russ and Corvus Corax spring immediately to mind! Not to mention Lion el Johnson and of course Guilliman. Even with "just" these four I believe the Emperor could set the Imperium on it's heels! In deference to Lynata: Of course this wouldn't start out as a direct military conflict! None of the Primarchs were that stupid! Imagine though, If the Ultima sector suddenly decided to secede! How would the Lords of Terra deal with the wolves of Fenris reunited with their Primarch! But the real kicker IMO would be an underground war led by Corax and the Raven guard!

 

I guess my point is: There may be factions That might recognise the Emperor for who and what he is. Especially any Psyker heavy institutions (Who might psychically recognize the holder of their Soul binding) or the Adeptus Custodes and of course; The Grey Knights! 

 

How many Lord Generals would be willing to fight a battle against an army Led by Roboute Guilliman? Not many I think if they had any sense! The next part would be: How many factions would join The Emperor just because of the reunited primarchs?

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From the HH novels, so take with a grain of salt, but wasn't the Emperor being deified by mortals long before his ascension to the Golden Throne? In 'Fulgrim', I think, one of the Remembrancers was reading/quoting from the banned writings of the Lecticio Imperialis, a work that was expanding even as the events of the Heresy were unfolding.

 

EDIT- A conversation held between a number of individuals in the immediate aftermath of the Emperor's ascension discusses the blooming deification of the Emperor and the possible ramifications of removing Him (this from the Inquisitor rules).

Edited by Brother Orpheo

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I think that once the remaining Primarches sided with the Emperor, there would be no doubt that he was the real deal and not some imposter. The Grey Knights should be able to confirm this. With the imperial warp routes shut down, any resistance to the Emperor would be at a serious disadvantage.

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Imagine though, If the Ultima sector suddenly decided to secede!

 

Ultramar is an entire sector in the novels?  :huh: Wow.

 

From the HH novels, so take with a grain of salt, but wasn't the Emperor being deified by mortals long before his ascension to the Golden Throne? In 'Fulgrim', I think, one of the Remembrancers was reading/quoting from the banned writings of the Lecticio Imperialis, a work that was expanding even as the events of the Heresy were unfolding.

 

Yeah, that's Primarch Lorgar's book mentioned on the previous side.

 

I think that once the remaining Primarches sided with the Emperor, there would be no doubt that he was the real deal and not some imposter. The Grey Knights should be able to confirm this. With the imperial warp routes shut down, any resistance to the Emperor would be at a serious disadvantage.

 

The "remaining Primarchs", of whom none had shown their face throughout the last couple thousand years? And suddenly, after the Imperium has struggled for so long against so many enemies, where it had need of them, they show up, only to serve as witnesses for someone who claims to be the Emperor?

 

I don't know about you, but I would say the people might be in doubt about them as well. :lol:

The few who could be confused by such signs would generally be swayed by Ecclesiarchal diatribe (remember, people in the 41st millennium are even more gullible than they are today ... they have prayers for turning on the radio!), or the propaganda and black ops of Inquisitors and High Lords who may realise the truth but decide to act against him either way in the interests of stability (or personal power).

 

The bit about the Warp routes is an interesting thought - though would this not also lock down anyone loyal to the Emperor? I'm just guessing here, but the psychic beacon used for navigation didn't seem like something that can be "password protected", so to say. Either it's on, or it is not.

 

That being said, the ability to shut it off and on at will is a huge advantage all by itself, as it puts the user at a significant strategic advantage by only making the Warp useable when he'd want to move his own forces. What does it matter if you only have a few thousand warriors in a few hundred ships set against the countless millions of the Imperial Guard, if the Navy is prevented from reliable deployment? The only method to possibly deal with such an interruption would be to have a huge fleet standing in preparation at all times, ready to jump once the light goes on ... simultaneously knowing that (a) this means the enemy is making a move as well and (b) that you may have to prematurely drop out of Warp if your journey is longer than the beacon is actually alight.

 

It's an interesting discussion, by the way. Not the first time I've seen it, but still - almost deserves its own thread.

Edited by Lynata
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I'm late to the party once again, but here's my list...

 

1) More Homeworlds and Backgrounds.

 

2) More gear (including more vehicles).

 

3) More psyker powers

 

4) More stats for antagonists, particularly those most common to the 40K setting (chaos space marines, daemons, orks, dark eldar, etc.)

 

5) Elite advances for Sororitas (including faith powers).

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Imagine though, If the Ultima sector suddenly decided to secede!

 

Ultramar is an entire sector in the novels?  :huh: Wow.

 

From the HH novels, so take with a grain of salt, but wasn't the Emperor being deified by mortals long before his ascension to the Golden Throne? In 'Fulgrim', I think, one of the Remembrancers was reading/quoting from the banned writings of the Lecticio Imperialis, a work that was expanding even as the events of the Heresy were unfolding.

 

Yeah, that's Primarch Lorgar's book mentioned on the previous side.

 

I think that once the remaining Primarches sided with the Emperor, there would be no doubt that he was the real deal and not some imposter. The Grey Knights should be able to confirm this. With the imperial warp routes shut down, any resistance to the Emperor would be at a serious disadvantage.

 

The "remaining Primarchs", of whom none had shown their face throughout the last couple thousand years? And suddenly, after the Imperium has struggled for so long against so many enemies, where it had need of them, they show up, only to serve as witnesses for someone who claims to be the Emperor?

 

I don't know about you, but I would say the people might be in doubt about them as well. :lol:

The few who could be confused by such signs would generally be swayed by Ecclesiarchal diatribe (remember, people in the 41st millennium are even more gullible than they are today ... they have prayers for turning on the radio!), or the propaganda and black ops of Inquisitors and High Lords who may realise the truth but decide to act against him either way in the interests of stability (or personal power).

 

The bit about the Warp routes is an interesting thought - though would this not also lock down anyone loyal to the Emperor? I'm just guessing here, but the psychic beacon used for navigation didn't seem like something that can be "password protected", so to say. Either it's on, or it is not.

 

That being said, the ability to shut it off and on at will is a huge advantage all by itself, as it puts the user at a significant strategic advantage by only making the Warp useable when he'd want to move his own forces. What does it matter if you only have a few thousand warriors in a few hundred ships set against the countless millions of the Imperial Guard, if the Navy is prevented from reliable deployment? The only method to possibly deal with such an interruption would be to have a huge fleet standing in preparation at all times, ready to jump once the light goes on ... simultaneously knowing that (a) this means the enemy is making a move as well and (b) that you may have to prematurely drop out of Warp if your journey is longer than the beacon is actually alight.

 

It's an interesting discussion, by the way. Not the first time I've seen it, but still - almost deserves its own thread.

 

 

Would the Emperor be the only one capable of turning the warp routes back on? He could almost use that reason alone to cripple the High Lords of Terra. If they turn against him and kill him, no more warp routes. Not even the Mechanicus know how that Golden Throne works or even how the mechanism is was before being damaged worked. 

They would have to find someone at least as strong as Malcador to power the Throne and they wouldn't even be a permanent fix.

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Back on topic, another supplement that I'd like to see early on would be a ready-to-use initial setting- either one colorful planet (a hub of illicit activity, basically the new Sector's equivellent of Tatooine), or a substantially detailed hive city (with at least a map of city quarters and major arteria- with travel times- and several key locations). I find 'world-building' to be the main time-sink in running a DH1 campaign, forcing me to either delay games while I detail a setting or settle for a lower level of detail than I would prefer; having a detailed location ready to use would be a huge boon. I suppose the best way to present it would be as the setting for a three-adventure book, with the extra detail taking it from a standard thin $25 adventure to medium-sized $40 semi-sourcebook.

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I would really like to see a sector gazetteer. I bought the old school D&D Forgotten Realms gazetteer years ago and that thing was likely the most important book I had. It saved boat loads of adventure design time.

 

They could even include some information on each planet as well as some notate warp routes that commonly used including dangerous ones where pirates lurk.

Edited by Elior

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A sector gazetteer  would be great, but I doubt that would be one of the first supplements, given the amount of work it would involve. To tide us over until that is ready, I'm asking for one highly detailed location that can be used for a variety of missions.

Edited by Adeptus-B

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But most of the work can be done parallel to the rule development by another small team. Rules and fluff in this case dont depend that much on each others progress.

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