yeti1069

Question regarding Influence basic power

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Does the power have two options or only one? That is, can you use the power to instill the target with some emotion, or hit them for 1 Strain, or is that all just one thing?

 

If the latter, how does making someone feel tranquil inflict Strain? Is it putting them to sleep or something?

 

If it's the former, does that also only work while engaged with your target?

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Does the power have two options or only one? That is, can you use the power to instill the target with some emotion, or hit them for 1 Strain, or is that all just one thing?

 

If the latter, how does making someone feel tranquil inflict Strain? Is it putting them to sleep or something?

 

If it's the former, does that also only work while engaged with your target?

It's all one thing. You choose the emotion and the narrative effect should follow the emotion. The mechanical effect is 1 Strain regardless of the emotion. If this takes the target over their Strain Threshold, then they will be overcome with the emotion and 'out' for the scene. What 'out' means depends on the emotion. Tranquility probably just has them sit back withdrawn from whatever is going on with a peaceful look on their face.

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Ah, ok. So the power has basically little or no real effect until you're hitting their Strain threshold then?

 

Do people ever use this as an ongoing effect, committing one Force die to continue to cause Strain over time?

 

Oh, and thanks for the quick reply.

Edited by yeti1069

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By itself, you can't commit. You need to keep battering down their emotional defenses. Combined with talents like Scathing Tirade - particularly the upgraded versions - and you can bring down some opponents without resorting to violence at all.

 

Look also to the Control upgrade that forces an opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check. If you can 'get them in the mood' for whatever you're pushing, most GMs would likely give you a Boost die for appropriate follow-up checks.

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By itself, you can't commit. You need to keep battering down their emotional defenses. Combined with talents like Scathing Tirade - particularly the upgraded versions - and you can bring down some opponents without resorting to violence at all.

 

Look also to the Control upgrade that forces an opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check. If you can 'get them in the mood' for whatever you're pushing, most GMs would likely give you a Boost die for appropriate follow-up checks.

Ah! Scathing Tirade looks amazing! And a control upgrade on Influence to add Force dice to that as well is pretty impressive. I'll have to think about heading that way eventually.

As for the other control upgrade...you mean a Boost die added to the Scathing Tirade check? Or to the same use of the Influence power? Anyway, yeah, this control upgrade can go the distance even without the Strain shenanigans, I just wanted to figure out what Influence does before any upgrading, and that's not a whole lot unless I've got a lot of time and a fairly complacent subject.

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I just wanted to figure out what Influence does before any upgrading, and that's not a whole lot unless I've got a lot of time and a fairly complacent subject.

 

It's fairly unlikely that a non-force sensitive target would detect that the basic use of Influence is happening. It's slow but insidious.

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Mechanically, the basic Influence power has a single effect: You cause the target to suffer a point of Strain.  And as there's no text to say it's an Ongoing Effect (such as the two Control Upgrades on the left side of the Sense power tree have), then you'd have to roll to activate it each round.  Against a Nemesis, it's not so great, but against Rivals and especially Minions, it's a bit more useful, since any Strain they suffer is treated as Wounds, and Minions have a rather low Wound Threshold.

 

The special rule (which is explained in more detail in the sidebar at the bottom of the page) doesn't really take effect unless you're using the "affect thoughts" Control Upgrade, because that's the ability that's really letting you guide/shape thoughts.

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The cool thing is that you can spend additional Light Side results on additional strain to your target. This goes up to 2 strain per Light Side result with the Strength upgrade, which can be pretty nasty if you get your Force Rating up to 2 and roll four Light Side results for a total of 8 strain. That's enough to put pretty much any minion completely out of commission.

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Does the power have two options or only one? That is, can you use the power to instill the target with some emotion, or hit them for 1 Strain, or is that all just one thing?

 

If the latter, how does making someone feel tranquil inflict Strain? Is it putting them to sleep or something?

 

If it's the former, does that also only work while engaged with your target?

It's all one thing. You choose the emotion and the narrative effect should follow the emotion. The mechanical effect is 1 Strain regardless of the emotion. If this takes the target over their Strain Threshold, then they will be overcome with the emotion and 'out' for the scene. What 'out' means depends on the emotion. Tranquility probably just has them sit back withdrawn from whatever is going on with a peaceful look on their face.

 

 

That's not quite right. As Donovan mentioned, the special rule text applies to the Influence Power in general, not what you can do with the basic power. Without upgrades, you can only create confusion – and strain damage. 

 

It's clearer in text, where the special rules are literally a sidebar, and the effects of the basic power are separated.

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The cool thing is that you can spend additional Light Side results on additional strain to your target. This goes up to 2 strain per Light Side result with the Strength upgrade, which can be pretty nasty if you get your Force Rating up to 2 and roll four Light Side results for a total of 8 strain. That's enough to put pretty much any minion completely out of commission.

Not quite.

 

The most you can inflict in terms of Strain damage is 2 points per usage, and that's with the Strength Upgrade.  Only certain Upgrades can be activated more than once, and those have game text that says exactly that, such as the Range and Magnitude Upgrades under most powers.  So even if you rolled four LS pips, you could only activate Influence's basic power once per turn.

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It looks to me that the text of the rule is saying that you CAN "activate" it multiple times per use.

 

p281 - Core Rulebook:

 

Force Power: Influence

 

Basic Power

The most basic form of Influence does not allow the Force user to guide or shape the thoughts of others.  He can "merely" strain their mind, inflicting stress and exhaustion.  The basic power has one effect that can be triggered multiple times on the same or different targets.  (bolding and Italics mine)

  • The user spends one light side force pip to stress the mind of one living target he is engaged with, inflicting 1 strain.

 

As I read it, the issue is the lack of clarity in the Strength upgrade wording in the chart...it doesn't explicitly say two per pip...it only says "When stressing the mind of a target, the character inflicts 2 strain." 

 

I read that as two per pip, not one since the text box for the upgrade (p283) does say:

Strength Upgrade:  When stressing the mind of a target, the Force user inflicts 2 strain instead of 1.

 

Thoughts?

 

This means that a Force Sensitive individual with even a single Force die COULD be great at dealing with minions, overwhelming their minds bit by bit (i.e. killing them since they don't have strain, I guess) if he's lucky with his rolls.

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That kind of leaves things up in the air. I think the wording of the power ("can be triggered multiple times") seems to indicate that you can cause more than 1 Strain per "casting," but it isn't necessarily the case. Is there a recourse on these boards for getting developer feedback/input/clarification on stuff like this?

 

How many wounds are typical of minions?

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The cool thing is that you can spend additional Light Side results on additional strain to your target. This goes up to 2 strain per Light Side result with the Strength upgrade, which can be pretty nasty if you get your Force Rating up to 2 and roll four Light Side results for a total of 8 strain. That's enough to put pretty much any minion completely out of commission.

Not quite.

 

The most you can inflict in terms of Strain damage is 2 points per usage, and that's with the Strength Upgrade.  Only certain Upgrades can be activated more than once, and those have game text that says exactly that, such as the Range and Magnitude Upgrades under most powers.  So even if you rolled four LS pips, you could only activate Influence's basic power once per turn.

 

I don't see why it wouldn't be capable of being activated multiple times. Nowhere does it say you CAN'T do that, or that you can only activate an effect multiple times if it's specifically called out. Common sense could swing either way on this one, I think.

How exactly do you contact the devs? I'm going to ask about this one. 

Edited by JonahHex

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Not to mention that using the power to cause strain (or, I guess, most uses of a Force power) takes an action - so it's sort of like using a weapon on an enemy, right?

 

Using the base power to cause only 1 Strain (2 with the upgrade) maximum per use seems light/underpowered compared to a Blaster pistol set on stun.

 

A character with 2 Force dice may be knocking Rivals unconscious in a few rounds with the un-upgraded power, possibly faster using the upgraded version.

 

I'm going to run it this way and see what sort of outcomes we have.

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Not to mention that using the power to cause strain (or, I guess, most uses of a Force power) takes an action - so it's sort of like using a weapon on an enemy, right?

 

Using the base power to cause only 1 Strain (2 with the upgrade) maximum per use seems light/underpowered compared to a Blaster pistol set on stun.

 

A character with 2 Force dice may be knocking Rivals unconscious in a few rounds with the un-upgraded power, possibly faster using the upgraded version.

 

I'm going to run it this way and see what sort of outcomes we have.

With two Force dice the most strain you could do at once is 8, which you'd need to do twice in a row on a rival to put them down. Seems fair to me, especially considering what stun weapons already do and how easy it is to hit with one of those at short range compared to rolling four Light Side results (or three Light Side results and Dark Side result, if you're willing to pay a Destiny Point and some strain).

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You can use it multiple times. The text right above the effect's description states:

 

"The basic power has one effect that can be triggered multiple times on the same or different targets."

 

It would have been better if that were in the effect's description – where everyone looks – but there it is.

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Well, what do you know.

 

I just read the bullet point, figuring the paragraph above was just descriptive fluff, particularly with the "multiple targets" bit, which would be covered under the Magnitude Upgrades.

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Yeah, I was surprised...since we were playing it the other way previously - with that character using his action to do 1 Strain and then taking cover again.

 

He was hoping that it might prove more useful in the future.  :)

 

And, bam - it has.

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So, with that reading of the basic power, you roll your Force dice, then may affect 1 target for 1 Strain (or 2 if you've upgraded) per Force point, right?

 

Then, does the Magnitude upgrade allow you to...what?...affect as many targets as you have Magnitude for as much Strain as you've got pips?

 

 

Roll 2 Force dice and get 4 Force Points.

Basic power: can hit 1 target for 4 Strain, or some combination of up to 4 targets for a total of 4 strain (total Strain damage 4).

Upgraded with 1 Magnitude: can hit 2 targets for a total of 4 points each (total Strain damage 8).

 

Is that right?

Edited by yeti1069

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I think that's basically right...but you have to spend Force pips to activate those magnitude and range upgrades.

 

MAGNITUDE

Spend 1 light side force pip to increase targets affected equal to magnitude upgrades purchased.

 

The text description on page 283 of the Core Rulebook DOES say the Force user may activate this multiple times, increasing the number of targets multiple times...

 

Hmm...that means:

 

If you have three Magnitude upgrades purchased...you:

  • spend one pip to affect four people
  • spend another pip for four more
  • etc.
  • etc.

Until you run out of pips to spend.

 

 

 

Basic version: (max successes)

  • Roll 2 Force dice and get 4 Force pips max.
  • Basic power: can hit 1 target for 4 Strain (spend all 4 pips on strain)
  • Upgraded with 1 Magnitude: can hit 2 targets (spend 1 Force pip for a Magnitude upgrade) each for 3 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain)
  • Upgraded with 2 Magnitude: can hit 3 targets (spend 1 Force pip for 2 Magnitude upgrades) each for 3 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain)
  • Upgraded with 3 Magnitude: can hit 4 targets (spend 1 Force pip for 3 Magnitude upgrades) each for 3 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain)

 

Upgraded Strength version: (max successes)

  • Roll 2 Force dice and get 4 Force pips.
  • Upgraded Strength power: can hit 1 target for 8 Strain (spend all 4 pips on strain - 2 points per pip)
  • Upgraded with 1 Magnitude: can hit 2 targets (spend 1 Force pip for a Magnitude upgrade) each for 6 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain - 2 points per pip)
  • Upgraded with 2 Magnitude: can hit 3 targets (spend 1 Force pip for 2 Magnitude upgrades) each for 6 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain - 2 points per pip)
  • Upgraded with 3 Magnitude: can hit 4 targets (spend 1 Force pip for 3 Magnitude upgrades) each for 6 strain (spend the remaining 3 pips on strain - 2 points per pip)

 

Am I typing crazy here or does this make sense?  :unsure:

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It's not apparent in reading it, but I think the intent is that Magnitude affects the Control upgrades and the basic power is 1:1 (spend pips on anyone engaged). 

 

The way the basic power reads it's clear that it can be used on multiple targets right off the bat with no upgrades – though they have to be engaged.

 

That being the case, that leaves the Magnitude upgrades to affect the Control upgrades (one of which explicitly mentions Magnitude). 

 

Again, it's not explicit that this is the case, so it may be may be worth asking the devs.

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Can a PC in one action activate FP (rolled 2 white pips), spend 1st white pip to activate Control opposed Discipline check against the the target (failed), then spend 2nd pip to change attitude of the target.

 

From the tree description it seems like he cannot and the whole Control upgrade is a separate action, but in the upgrade description it is written "as part of the pool to activate the power" which sounds for me like activation of the Basic Power effects are also possible.

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I'd probably allow it because the basic power is more of just a narrative distraction whereas the Control option is a defintive mechanical result.  So they try the ol 'you will open the door and let us in' Control thing which doesn't work, but fail, although with the extra pip the target is 'hey I like you guys but no can do'.  So you fail to get the result you want but the target isn't overtly hostile towards you.

NicoDavout and bradknowles like this

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On 1/12/2014 at 9:48 AM, HappyDaze said:
On 1/12/2014 at 9:35 AM, yeti1069 said:

Does the power have two options or only one? That is, can you use the power to instill the target with some emotion, or hit them for 1 Strain, or is that all just one thing?

 

If the latter, how does making someone feel tranquil inflict Strain? Is it putting them to sleep or something?

 

If it's the former, does that also only work while engaged with your target?

It's all one thing. You choose the emotion and the narrative effect should follow the emotion. The mechanical effect is 1 Strain regardless of the emotion. If this takes the target over their Strain Threshold, then they will be overcome with the emotion and 'out' for the scene. What 'out' means depends on the emotion. Tranquility probably just has them sit back withdrawn from whatever is going on with a peaceful look on their face.

This power is confusingly written. In the "Influence Basic Power" box (FaD page 294), it states: "The character may attempt to guide, shape, and even twist the thoughts and feelings of others."

But in the BASIC POWER description at the bottom of the page we read: "The most basic form of Influence does not allows the force user to guide or shape the thoughts of others."

This apparent contradiction is solved by understanding the first text above ("The character may attempt...") as a flavour text that applies to the entire Force Power.

This means that the Influence Basic Power is just this:

The character may spend [pip] to stress the mind of one living target he is engaged with, inflicting 1 strain.

So the Basic Power does not involve thoughts and emotions of a target, but it does involve a specific target. So the Range, Magnitude and Strength upgrades (not Duration) apply to this "attack". Note also that there is no difficulty involved, it is an "auto-hit". However, according to the general Force Power rules, the GM may still require an apposed Discipline check to use this power against a Nemesis, another PC or important character.

The BASIC POWER description goes on to say (top of page 295): "When upgrading this power, the user can choose whether to influence and sway large crowds of people with his abilities, or to directly modify the thoughts or emotions of others".

This refers to the 2 control upgrades: the first is the "social enhancement" upgrade (which allows you to sway large crowds) and the second I call the "mind trick"upgrade (which allows you to directly effect thought and emotions). Both of these have nothing to do with the Strain inflicting basic power.

The social enhancement upgrade is not changed or effected by other upgrades such as Range and Magnitude. This is because the power directly effects the Skill of the force user. On page 295 we read:

Control Upgrade: The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force.

In other words, the Force is used to directly improve the user's Skill. The result is that he can effect large crowds, and even effect beings that are not otherwise effected by Force powers.

The "mind trick"upgrade on the other hand directly effects a target. As a result, all of the upgrades apply (Range, Magnitude and Duration, but not Strength), and without these upgrades you can only effect one person at Engaged range. And, in this case, the apposed discipline check is required, even if it is just a Storm Trooper. So to succeed, you need one pip and you need one succeed at the apposed check.

So, for example, the most people that can be effected by the "mind trick" upgrade, if you have all the 3 Magnitude upgrades and roll 4 pips, is 10:

  • 1 pip: trigger power, and effect one target
  • 3 pips: trigger Magnitude 3 times and effect 9 additional targets.

Note that this is, by no means a "large crowd", as mentioned at the end of the BASIC POWER description. Which shows that they are not referring to this upgrade when speaking of "swaying large crowds of people". On the other hand, the "social enhancement" upgrade does not "directly modify the thoughts or emotions of others". That is what the mind trick does.

Absol197 likes this

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A bit of an old thread to bring back up , however just to clarify using the influence control upgrade along with scathing tirade is confirmed as not being possible. When you are using Scathing Tirade its an action (sometimes a maneuever) but when using a combined force check it is also an action. So you cannot do both, so it will always be your coercion pool with no force dice.

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