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LuciusT

Thoughts on Update 6

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As others said,greandes are S3 in the tabletop, a diverse range which covers lasguns and shotguns for a few, Frag grenades can't be too powerful and the potential to do up to 20 damage is a lot, the issue is more making it steady damage.

Tenebrae likes this

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Like i've said before, why not make them 2d10 + 5 damage? This solves the whole issue in a very simple way.

That turns them into... not exactly a heavy bolter, but close.

In the TT, they are (as already mentioned) S3 AP- which is the same as a lasgun.

If we add much (especially static damage) to the frag grenades, we'd need to boost the krak grenades as well.

 

Tearing isn't a bad idea, and is likely to make a real difference with the 2 dice already rolled, while still keeping intact most of the unpredictability of frag grenades.

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Strength 3 on the tabletop implies a 50% chance of killing a regular human. 

 

So with that being the case, I think making a grenade 1d10+5 would be fair. Add tearing or AP to taste. 

 

So you're lowering the maximum damage, but making it more consistently dangerous against baseline foes; assuming the "average" person has 10 wounds, no armor and 30 toughness, an average roll on the damage chart would reduce them to 1 wound (1d10+5 with tearing has an average roll of 7, plus 5 is 12 wounds. Minus the victim's toughness bonus of 3 and you're left with 9 wounds inflicted).

 

You get identical numbers with 2d10 tearing (on average 7+6 damage for 13, so 10 wounds inflicted), but I don't like how high the potential damage is versus how cheap and readily available grenades are. 

Edited by BlaxicanX

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The issue is that TT is a heavy abstraction as is, while we are looking for a closer one. So it shouldn't be a 50/50 chance of killing someone (especially because of armor and the crits table), but the current frag grenade is too unpredictable. And while it should be to an extent, we want to modify the bell curve of probability without nailing it in place.

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Dont underestimate its doubled chance for RF. That can be dangerous enough, even if the damage itself might be lower.

If you score multiple hits, the chance is good to score at least 1 RF.

Edited by GauntZero

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I think i'll try Frags with 1d10+5 Pen 0, Tearing. With a range of 6-15 damage it still ranges from wounding an (unarmored) Imperial citizen to completely tearing one apart in light armor.

And the Tearing would adequatly represent the nummerous shards flying around.

While real grenades can kill up to 40 feet away, the firecrackers sold as Frags in 40k should still be feared or at least respected.

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Strength 3 on the tabletop implies a 50% chance of killing a regular human. 

 

So with that being the case, I think making a grenade 1d10+5 would be fair. Add tearing or AP to taste.

Then I'd rather have 2d10 - grenades tend to be very unpredictable. Preferbly Tearing.

 

But as has been discussed a few times before, the length of rounds are not the same. Each attack in the TT represents several in the timeframe of the RPG. So a frag grenade in the TT probably shouldn't have a 50% chance of killing an average person in the RPG, since it represents several such.

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Casualties in TT are not deaths; they are being taken out of the combat, more likely by being wounded than killed.

 

Anyway, S3 is lasgun level = somewhere around  1d10+3ish.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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1d10+5 with tearing doesn't have a 50% chance of killing someone, fellas...

 

You would have to roll above average to outright kill an unarmored target. 

 

If grenades were 2d10 with tearing, they should go up in cost (or availability, whatever you want to call it). 

Edited by BlaxicanX

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Frag Grenades are cheap, easy to make, good anti personell and simple. They SHOULD be good for the cost, they are the default grenade for most situations

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They ARE good even without 2d10 with tearing.

 

They're ridiculously good, zero drawback auto-takes with 2d10+tearing at their current availability. 

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1d10+5 with tearing doesn't have a 50% chance of killing someone, fellas...

 

Lasguns don't either, and they have the exact same S in TT as frag grenades do. Frag grenades in TT are not impressive weapons.

 

A TT "attack" is not one shot, and a TT casualty is not a death,

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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TT stats are what the 40KRPG weapon stats are generally based on.

 

I could argue with this. The damage model of the plasma gun/autocannon anyone? On the TT they have the same damage, in the RPG the AC is vastly superior. 

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Generally based on, there is huge variance when translated from TT to RPG, but it gives a useful clue, "Okay, a full power plasma rifle should be several steps above a bolter, which should be a step up above a lasgun" same thing with stats, let's say you want to roughly convert a guardsman, you his WS, BS, S, T, Wounds (if 3/3/3/3/1) 30 WS, 30 BS, 30 S, 30 T, 10 wounds (granted not all examples are fast, especially the bigger up ones), so there is some conversion possible, it is just rough and even things may share the same Str of an attack, they can vary widely between them still.

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Hmm, average damage for a BC plasma gun on maximal is 19, while for an autocannon it's 24.5, although the AC has a 50% greater chance of getting RF.

 

A difference but not a giant one, probably within the spread of S7. (Hard to tell since I think those are the only S7 weapons statted out in the game.)

 

A better counterexample is that the meltagun (S8) does an average of 21 damage.

 

Then again, this has to have rate of fire factored into it, since in 40KRPG it works very differently from in TT.

 

I think I'm going to do some math. :)

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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Yikes. Mr. Math tells me that the plasma cannon does much more damage on average per attack than the autocannon, especially against a heavily armoured target.

 

However, this is due to the Blast Quality mainly, which means that the cannon hits 100% of the time unless the target cannot dodge out of the blast radius.

 

Nevertheless, the multimelta also does more average damage per attack than the autocannon does, and not only because of the blast radius. (The meltagun on the other hand does not unless the target is really heavily armoured.).

 

(To make a long story short, the average damage per attack after damage reduction for a plasma cannon on maximal, an autocannon, and a multimelta at short range against a TB8 target in Terminator armour is 18.5, 10.2, and 13.3, respectively.)

 

EDIT: whoops, the multimelta should be a little higher due to having a (small) Blast radius as well, but not hugely higher -- I think another point or 2).

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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Yikes. Mr. Math tells me that the plasma cannon does much more damage on average per attack than the autocannon, especially against a heavily armoured target.

 

So? I was talking about the plasma gun. It is S7 in the TT, just like every Imperial plasma weapon (including the plasma pistol). 

 

The RPG follows the TT damage models until S4 (roughly 1D10+5), but above that, it falls apart like a house of cards. With ridiculous stuff like the multilaser (S6) doing the same damage as a meltagun (S8). I think this is the fault of the extremely tight damage system that is in turn the child of the flawed lethality level of the game.

Edited by AtoMaki

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Don't have the book infront of me so I can't double check the rules, but how on earth does blast give you a 100% chance to hit? You can still miss and scatter, at which point hilarity can ensue.

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Yikes. Mr. Math tells me that the plasma cannon does much more damage on average per attack than the autocannon, especially against a heavily armoured target.

 

So? I was talking about the plasma gun. It is S7 in the TT, just like every Imperial plasma weapon (including the plasma pistol). 

 

The RPG follows the TT damage models until S4 (roughly 1D10+5), but above that, it falls apart like a house of cards. With ridiculous stuff like the multilaser (S6) doing the same damage as a meltagun (S8). I think this is the fault of the extremely tight damage system that is in turn the child of the flawed lethality level of the game.

 

 

Aargh, I misread you.

 

Anyway, the autocannon and plasma gun are actually in about the same rough area (within a spread of 5).

 

Melta is true though, but I think this has more to do with how vehicles work.

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Don't have the book infront of me so I can't double check the rules, but how on earth does blast give you a 100% chance to hit? You can still miss and scatter, at which point hilarity can ensue.

 

The plasma cannon on maximal has a Blast of 5, which is also the maximum scatter range. Which means that it cannot miss.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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Don't have the book infront of me so I can't double check the rules, but how on earth does blast give you a 100% chance to hit? You can still miss and scatter, at which point hilarity can ensue.

 

The plasma cannon on maximal has a Blast of 5, which is also the maximum scatter range. Which means that it cannot miss.

 

I see. Still only 90% though since it will overheat on 91-100? I need to get home and look up the book on this, just as a curiousity :)

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Anyway, the autocannon and plasma gun are actually in about the same rough area (within a spread of 5).

 

The plasma gun does 13 points of damage on average while the autocannon does 23 :D. That's hardly a small difference, especially since the "damage jump" (the number of damage difference in the RPG that translates into a Strength difference in the TT) is ~3-4 or even less. Also, doesn't count the Maximal setting since the TT plasma gun doesn't use it either (it could, back in Rogue Trader). 

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Anyway, the autocannon and plasma gun are actually in about the same rough area (within a spread of 5).

 

The plasma gun does 13 points of damage on average while the autocannon does 23 :D. That's hardly a small difference, especially since the "damage jump" (the number of damage difference in the RPG that translates into a Strength difference in the TT) is ~3-4 or even less. Also, doesn't count the Maximal setting since the TT plasma gun doesn't use it either (it could, back in Rogue Trader). 

 

 

The plasma gun on maximal does 19 damage on average. I am using the BC stats because that's what I have in front of me. I am assuming that the TT gun is firing using that mode.

 

If you wanted to, you could simply remove standard shot and have all shots count as maximal.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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