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kaltorak

Stamina Question

28 posts in this topic

Hi, I read various comments on Stamina in the other threads but the rule is still shady for me.

 

Let's use these example.

 

1)Empire Disk A (Toughness: 5, Stamina: 1) is pinned by 2 Orc Disks (B and C) with Attack: 5.

 

2)Empire Disk A (Toughness: 5, Stamina: 1) is pinned by 2 Orc Disks (B with Attack 6 and C with Attack 4).

 

What happens in both cases?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Umberto Pignatelli

 

 

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If these are the only engagements that these disks have you would resolve them in this order:

 

1) A: Orc Disks B and C would place 5 points of damage tokens on Empire Disk A. Empire Disk A would place its damage tokens on either Orc B or C.

1) B: At the end of the Engagement all damage tokens would be removed from Empire A and one wound token would be placed on it.

 

The same would happen in the second scenario.  Basically, a disk w/ stamina can have as much damage on it during any ONE phase and only receive 1 wound token.

 

IF a disk with stamina receives enough damage during the Activation phase to place a wound on it, then I believe it could receive a second one during the following Melee phase.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited by Tenrousei

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The timing actually does not include the whole phase. It is based on a specific point of time. The short answer to the question is that in both cases that you presented, the disk takes one wound and that's it.

The long answer is that it all depends if the disk is receiving damage at the same time or not.

The toughest one I think is if there are disks with swift involved. Lets say Chaos disks A Swift (attack) and attack value 5 and disk B attack value 5 but not Swift are attacking Empire disk C Toughness 4 and Stamina 1. Disk A would deal damage first due to Swift causing one wound then Disk B would deal its damage causing a second wound and destroying Disk C.

Edited by Bright Wizard

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@Bright Wizard and Tenrousei

Where is this in the rules?  I was looking, and the only thing I could find was pages 9 and 10, which actually says whenever a disk has damage on it equal to or exceeding its toughness, it takes a wound, so it seems like in A, the disk with stamina would die to me.  What am I missing?

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This is unclear to me. On page 21 of the rulebook, under "Wounds", it reads: "when a disk with stamina is dealt damage, no more than 1 wound marker is placed on it regardless of how much damage was dealt." 

 

Now, to me, this means that no one individual attack can cause more than one wound. For example, if a River Troll were to use its Strength 10 ranged attack on a Toughness 5 disk, the disk would receive one wound and the remaining 5 damage would be ignored. 

 

But, again, this is on an "attack by attack" basis, so in example 1 above, the disk would receive 2 Wounds and be killed. Individually, each of the Orc disks does enough damage to wound the target, so the target dies.

 

In example 2, the disk would end up with ONE wound, because the disk with the attack strength of 4 doesn't do enough damage to wound.

 

This is how I interpret the rule. Anyone else wanna weigh in here?

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In addition to the wording on page 21, the example on page 10 helps.  In the example, Karl Franz takes six damage, one over his toughness of five.  The Orc Boyz takes five, one over their toughness of four.  The second step illustrates the results, Karl Franz has a single wound with no damage tokens while the Orc Boyz are removed as a casualty.  This same example shows Franzs damage being taken simultaneously, implying that encounter damage is dealt at one time, thus is in the same pool.

 

Another specific thing I'd like addressed in the FAQ.

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In addition to the wording on page 21, the example on page 10 helps.  In the example, Karl Franz takes six damage, one over his toughness of five.  The Orc Boyz takes five, one over their toughness of four.  The second step illustrates the results, Karl Franz has a single wound with no damage tokens while the Orc Boyz are removed as a casualty.  This same example shows Franzs damage being taken simultaneously, implying that encounter damage is dealt at one time, thus is in the same pool.

 

Hypothetically, if each of the Orc Units had a Counter Strength of 5 damage, would Karl Franz be killed in this engagement?

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No he would not, the damage is being dealt simultaneously and the wording on page 21 indicates that "When a disk with stamina is dealt damage, no more than 1 wound token is placed on it regardless of how much damage was dealt."  The sidebar for stamina on page 10 reads "When a disk with stamina takes a wound, it is only removed as a casualty if it already has wound tokens on ite equal to its stamina.  Otherwise, remove all damage tokens from it and replace them with a wound token."  This states that no matter how much damage is dealt in excess of the targets toughness, only one wound is dealt per incident of damage.  This is why in the previous example where Karl Franz is dealt six wound markers, he receives one wound total and the excess damage is removed.

 

As another example;

Azhag the Slaughterer is flipped into the middle of a large formation, pinning four disks.  He winds up taking 12 damage, far in excess of his toughness of five.  He takes a total of one wound, assuming none of the disks he's pinning have swift on counter.  All excess damage is removed, leaving Azhag with a single wound token.

Edited by AngryMojo

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I thought I had this down, but now I am confused again.

I agree with what  Murnaz is saying.

I really wish someone could clear this up.

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I agree with AngryMojo, I won't restate what he said but say that that is how I have understood the rules. This, of course, may not be what was intended but it is as I have interpreted it.

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Well, I've been doing that totally wrong.  :unsure:  Thanks for the clarification. 

No worries, there are a lot of questionable wordings in the rulebook.  I'm really looking forward to the FAQ.

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@dkartzinel - the key of stamina is timing. I don't think it is coincidental that every other quote front he rules that we used in this thread starts with "when". Damage in a given engagement is dealt at the same time. This is what give meaning to Swift and Slow which are the abilities that change timing of damage dealt on a given engagement.

Example: Orc A and Orc B are attacking Elf C (chooses to deal damage to A). If none of them have Swift or Slow, the damage is resolved and dealt and the same time. Therefore, A and B would not be able to deal more than one wound total to C in this engagement. If C had Swift, it could potentially take out one of the attackers before it was dealt damage by that attacker.

If one of the attacking disks have Swift or Slow, this would create potential that their attack could cause more than one wound, as long as the first attack dealt enough damage (by itself or cumulative with damage dealt earlier in the round) to cause one wound. In this case, the damage caused by the second attacker would be additional to the wound caused by the first attacker.

AngryMojp has it right. Even though it would not hurt to have it addressed on an FAQ, I am not sure it is really necessary.

I hope this makes sense.

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So there really is no benefit to attack a single disk with multiple attackers if at least one can do the single wound, correct?

(Other than having another pinning disk if the first one gets killed).

 

Think I'm getting it, I hope.

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Ok.Thanks to all for helping me get a handle on this awesome game.

Bright Wizard, your comments here and on BGG have really been awesome.

Did you work on this game or playtest?

Your rules interpretations have been insightful and well reasoned.

Thanks again.

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Thank you for the kind remarks. I think Diskwars is rapidly developing an awesome community. There are so many helpful and insightful remarks here and at BGG. I love Diskwars and have been a fan since the original game came out. I did, in fact, participate in the playtest. I only comment on rules questions that I am sure or pretty sure about (although I could always be wrong). Naturally, I am not affiliated with FFG and everything I say is unofficial. I just try to get the questions I know, answered as quickly as possible so people can move on and keep playing the game.

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Now the difference here is during a scrum.

 

The real issues begin to occur when you have so many engagements on top of eachother that figuring out who starts where, and when damage occurs could become an issue.

 

every single game of this I have played has had a really climactic battle occuring with many massive scrums and I was going to try and write an example, but unless I had a picture of one of said battles in front of me, the example would be too confusing for both me and everyone reading. So I am just going to mention the confusing battles and hope someone more competent comes to the front with a good example and explanations :-P.

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The important thing to remember with a scrum is that engagements are resolved top down.  So you just break the scrum into it's component engagements, and resolve the one on top first, and continue that way until you get to the bottom of the pile.

 

I hope that helps.  

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Don't you just love how every FAQ for every game ever always answers things that were really clear to begin with, but never addresses the huge elephants in the room?

I feel like the same happened here because naturally this was not addressed in the FAQ and if there was any rule in the book needed clarification it is clearly this one!

After changing how I handled stamina and wounds twice already, I thought I finally had this all figured out but some special rules and abilities didn't make sense with my most recent interpretation so after reading all this I came to the following conclusions.

So just to clarify:

Scenario [A]

If a disk with toughness 5 and 1 stamina gets hit with 18 damage by the volley gun, it immediately gets 1 wound, right?

If in the same TURN / ROUND (or subsequent ones of course) this same disk then...

1) gets first hit with a magic 3 attack and, two command cards later, gets pinned with impact 3, IT DIES

2) gets hit by a unit of crossbowmen with 6 damage, IT DIES

3) takes 5 damage in the meele phase, IT DIES

Right?

Scenario

If a disk like for example Azhag with counter 4, toughness 5, no damage, and 2 stamina...

1) is being pinned by one disk that is swift 5, one disk that is normal 5, and one disk that is slow 5, and the counter 4 isn't enough to kill any of those pinning disks, IT DIES IMMEDIATELY IN THAT ENGAGEMENT, right?

2) is being pinned by a Bloodthirster, and either a disk with slow 5 or swift 5, and the counter 4 isn't enough to kill any of those pinning disks, IT DIES IMMEDIATELY IN THAT ENGAGEMENT, right?

Edited by Timpro
MechaBri.Zilla likes this

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Looks like you have everything correct, except that you are considering everything one engagement.  In each of those situations, you have multiple engagements.  But they are each a single scrum.

 

One of the important points in all of your examples are the swift and slow keywords which make those attacks happen in different timing brackets.  Where people get confused usually is in a scrum or engagement where there are no swift or slow keywords, but tons of damage output.  In those cases, it doesn't matter how much damage is being dealt in a single engagement, it is only possible to deliver a single wound.  For instance, you could have a toughness 3 disk pinned by three other units doing 3, 4, and 4 damage respectively, but if they don't have swift or slow keywords, the result is a single wound, because that is all a single engagement, i.e. what ties it all together is the single defender.  

 

Here is the rule (in the digital rule book, page 18):

 

"An engagement includes all attacking and defending disks that can be 
traced back to a common attacker or defender in such a way that no 
disk is embattled.
• No disk can be both an attacker and defender in the same 
engagement. 
• A disk must deal its melee damage, if able; it cannot choose to 
refrain from an engagement.
• Damage persists from engagement to engagement.
• If a new engagement occurs as a result of another engagement being 
resolved, players cannot resolve the new engagement during the same 
melee phase. This most commonly occurs when an embattled disk is 
removed as a casualty, allowing the disk on top of it to pin the disk that 
was below it"

 

Magic and ranged attacks all happen within their own timing bracket, and damage is applied immediately.  Meaning that if you have a toughness 5 disk carrying 3 damage and he gets hit by 2 more from ranged or magic attacks, then he is wounded right away, if that same attack did 10 damage instead, the disk would take a wound and the excess damage would be removed.  Additional ranged/magic attacks that occur after that (ie, come from a different source) then start the process over.

 

I hope this helps.

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Thanks for the response!

I don't see, however, where you see multiple engagements. Both my examples in scenario B are one engagement each, with each involving multiple disks. But just like you quoted, it's one engagement each nevertheless. Or am what did you mean?

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Thanks for the response!

I don't see, however, where you see multiple engagements. Both my examples in scenario B are one engagement each, with each involving multiple disks. But just like you quoted, it's one engagement each nevertheless. Or am what did you mean?

 

Crud...  Helps if I read a bit closer, huh?  

 

You're right, these are single engagements, A) just involves ranged/magic damage prior to the melee phase and B) includes the swift and slow keywords. Sorry about that.

 

So back to the actual answer to your question... Yes, you understand everything correctly as far as I can tell.  Sorry for all the extra gobeldy-goop.  I've just seen so many of these questions about damage timing that I expect certain questions when I start reading.

Edited by MechaBri.Zilla

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