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Arrakiz

Second Edition Beta- playing a sniper STILL not possible.

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Oh, yes, don't get me wrong - I really love a lot of their additions (which tend to be well written and thus fun to read, too) ... and I picked up a lot of cool ideas which I've added to my own vision of the 41st millennium. For better or worse, the IP allows everyone to cherrypick what they like and discard the rest, which goes for readers just as much as it goes for the writers.

 

Let's just say I don't particularly like most of the cases where the fluff contradicts. Most of the time I simply brush it off as unnecessary deviations, but a few cases keep grinding my gears.

 

I fully agree on the personality thing, by the way. That should be a big trait/issue of such characters.

 

And yes @ Accurate. I misremembered on the Penetration, though, it has 9 as basis and gets a further +5 for a total of Pen 14 when used with Turbo Penetrators!

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Forgive me if someone mentioned this, but since RT apparently (and it is IN the beta book), you can replace the results of one dice roll with the DoS you scored on the test and 10 DoS = auto RF. So having a high BS and a lot of modifiers + rolling well means that when your shot hits, it gets a superior version of proven and if you are using good ammo/variable (which you should), you are getting a lot more and reliable damage output.

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Forgive me if someone mentioned this, but since RT apparently (and it is IN the beta book), you can replace the results of one dice roll with the DoS you scored on the test and 10 DoS = auto RF. So having a high BS and a lot of modifiers + rolling well means that when your shot hits, it gets a superior version of proven and if you are using good ammo/variable (which you should), you are getting a lot more and reliable damage output.

Yes, but the weapon's own damage output is still very random. That's why I said it should be pointed out that the only thing that can make it effective is the user. On it's own, it's unpredictable.

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It's not that random. Randomness decreases as number of dice increase. The odds of rolling <10 on 4d10 (or 6d10!) are really low.

 

Conceptually, it's a large slug weapon, no? It should realistically do less minimum damage than a bolter (which it does -- 4). Because it can nick the target.

 

Really, the fearsome thing about the Exitus should be that it is a Vindicare firing it. Otherwise it's just a glorified high-caliber stub rifle. Maybe give him a Talent that lets him add Tearing to Accurate weapons?

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It's not that random. Randomness decreases as number of dice increase. The odds of rolling <10 on 4d10 (or 6d10!) are really low.

Mnyea-no.

Depends on how you define randomness. You certainly gain a wider spectrum of possible results with 4d10 than with 1d10.

On the other hand, instead of a silly flat distribution, you get a bell curve (from the puissant distribution).

So basically you have a greater probability of rolling average, but extreme rolls are much more extreme.

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It's not that random. Randomness decreases as number of dice increase. The odds of rolling <10 on 4d10 (or 6d10!) are really low.

Mnyea-no.

Depends on how you define randomness. You certainly gain a wider spectrum of possible results with 4d10 than with 1d10.

On the other hand, instead of a silly flat distribution, you get a bell curve (from the puissant distribution).

So basically you have a greater probability of rolling average, but extreme rolls are much more extreme.

 

 

A 1) greater probablity of rolling average damage and 2) decreasing randomness are the same thing.

 

Rolling 1d100 is a lot less likely to give around a 50 than 10d10. Orders of magnitude less likely.

 

You are never going to get extreme rolls barring phenomenal luck or rolling thousands of times.

 

I mean, people are literally worried about something that has a 0.01% chance of happening! Really. Are you going to play the game for decades, roll hundreds of times for the Vindicare's damage?

Edited by bogi_khaosa
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Actually, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Exitus to roll 4d10+2 and get 4 +  2 = 6. Because that requires a minimum of 5 DoS, which will replace the lowest die. So the actual lowest possible damage is 5 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 = 10. (Actually 12, since Vindicares all I assume have  Mighty Shot.)

 

(Assuming that this rule, which has been in every 40K game since Rogue Trader, is imported into Dark Heresy.)

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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It's not that random. Randomness decreases as number of dice increase. The odds of rolling <10 on 4d10 (or 6d10!) are really low.

Mnyea-no.

Depends on how you define randomness. You certainly gain a wider spectrum of possible results with 4d10 than with 1d10.

On the other hand, instead of a silly flat distribution, you get a bell curve (from the puissant distribution).

So basically you have a greater probability of rolling average, but extreme rolls are much more extreme.

 

 

A 1) greater probablity of rolling average damage and 2) decreasing randomness are the same thing.

 

No.

 

That's decreasing the spread, or occassionally "tightening the peak".

Randomness can equally well refer to the number of possible results.

 

I know what you mean, but the mathematician in me is crying. Because randomness is underdefined and so talking about it means talking nonsense.

As a note aside, did you know that the probability of rolling 11 on 2d10 is 10% - or exactly the same as rolling any one specific value on 1d10?

Or that not only is the average value of a (2N+1)d10 roll (for any interger value of N, including 0) not the most commonly rolled value, it is infact a value never actually rolled.

Rolling 1d100 is a nlot less likely to give around a 50 than 10d10. Orders of magnitude less likely.

Just a quick note: An order of magnitude means a factor of 10. I realise that's not necessarily how journalists use it, but then most journalists are ... not very gifted.

Since rolling a 1d100 has exactly 1% chance of of giving you exactly a 50, and 11% chance of giving you a value in the [45;55] range, that's not going to be orders of magnitude.

10d10 is much less likely to turn up a 100 than a 1d100 (by 2 orders of magnitude) though. It also won't give you any values in the [1;9] range.

 

I mean, people are literally worried about something that has a 0.01% chance of happening! Really. Are you going to play the game for decades, roll hundreds of times for the Vindicare's damage?

Well, if all this math is to have any relevance at all, that's exactly what we'd have to do. Probabilities aren't all that relevant without large numbers of outcomes. Ultimatively, what matters at the gaming table isn't probabilities, it's what the dice are showing right there and then.

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Also, sorry if that looked like a personal attack. I really shouldn't go to forums when running a fever.

The wierdest things become horribly important.

As could be seen above I suspect.

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Mind you guys, for a long long time before any supplements or even errata, the only weapons that could have been called (because sure as hell not considered) "sniper" rifles were the hunting rifle and the long-las. And they had 150m of effective range, so up to 600m at extreme range. Considering our modern sniper rifles can easily stay accurate at 4000m... Those are rather poor excuses for "sniper" weapons.

 

I'm sorry, what? The longest confirmed kill from an expert marksman in HUMAN HISTORY is 2,475m. So, no. Just no. I appreciate that's the skill of the user, but thats where modifiers like 'extreme range' come into play.

Edited by Cail

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60 BS, accurate weapon, maybe 2k exp in talents?  Then again, DH has the issues with ranking up etc so i suppose it's not THAT simple.  Still, a capped ballistic skill and an accurate weapon, along with stealth, survival and high awareness will give you the shooting and exfil skills a sniper is supposed to have, at least in RPG terms.

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60 BS, accurate weapon, maybe 2k exp in talents?  Then again, DH has the issues with ranking up etc so i suppose it's not THAT simple.  Still, a capped ballistic skill and an accurate weapon, along with stealth, survival and high awareness will give you the shooting and exfil skills a sniper is supposed to have, at least in RPG terms.

 

The point of the thread isn't hitting your target, it's putting him down in one shot. Which would be a mad broken thing if it were possible, but without it very difficult to play a proper "sniper." You play the sniper, line up your shot, make a called shot to the head, make the hit.... fail to kill the guy and watch him either run out of your line of sight or call for backup.

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I think the best way of handling 'snipers' would be to add a new combat action. Something like

 

Precision Shot (Half Action)

A Precision Shot is a special variant of Called Shot. In addition to the normal benefits and penalties for a Called Shot, for every Aim action used leading to the use of the Precision Shot negates 1 point Toughness and Armor soak. In addition, for each additional degree of success, negate an additional point of Toughness and Armor Soak. 
Regardless of how many Aim half actions are used in combination with the Precision Shot, the roll modifier stays at a -20 Penalty. 

 

Edit: Something like this should be limited to weapons with the Accurate trait.

Edited by Cogniczar
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I find that players typically don't realize that any home-brew or super-sniper combo they come up with can validly be turned back on them.

 

The great equalizer however is that the players will have multiple fate points (hopefully, if they haven't had to spend them all yet surviving), as well as major non player characters will undoubtedbly have as well (Touched by Fate)

 

I think the players should have a mechanic in place to eliminate mooks and minions with a singular sniper shot from time to time. Part of executing that correctly would be setting up a crows nest, the ambush, an escape route if necessary, etc. If the character they wish to head shot is important, he'll pop a fate point and players will realize how much shiznit they are in. Exciting times.

Before that happens, plenty of bribery, social interactions, and stealthy stuff needs to go down first.

 

Then, if they want to try this sort of thing out in combat - well, good luck wasting precious turns trying to aim and 'boost' their sniper effect while being shot at, charged, and otherwise distracted with imminent death. 

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Well they DO have a mechanic in place to eliminate mooks and minions with a singular sniper shot from time to time. An average 3d10+3 sniper shot does 19.5 damage, which against a standard TB3 10 Wounds person drops him to a negative -6.5. Mighty Shot will bring this down to -8.5.

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What are you shooting at that an accurate weapon can't deal with?

 

You're capping bonuses with an accurate/dot-sight/unaware target (well, +50 anyway i think).  110 BS, -20 called shot (if you don't have the talents) then mighty shot with an SP Sniper Rifle?  What are those, 1d10+3 P:2?  So you're rolling 3d10+5 P:2 on a head shot, P: 5 with man stoppers.

 

Sure, your weapon damage die might not get righteous fury, but we're talking high average damage here.  You take the hat off most any "sentry" with that kind of damage (unless sentries in your games have carapace armor and high toughness, or are demons or something).  Or does accurate work differently in DH and i just don't remember?

Edited by Alrik Vas
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Errata switched Manstoppers to a fixed Pen 3, no +3.

But yeah, Long Las with Hot shot at an unaware target gets up to +60 to BS, and deals 3d10+6 Pen 4 Tearing ...

and who lets mook drop into the crit table? They should die at 0 wounds.

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I find that players typically don't realize that any home-brew or super-sniper combo they come up with can validly be turned back on them.

 

I think the players should have a mechanic in place to eliminate mooks and minions with a singular sniper shot from time to time. 

 

As has been said, they do. I'm playing in a game with a sniper-assassin. No fancy alt-ranks, no fancy gear beyond his long las + red-dot sight. He drops mooks frequently in 1 hits. Hardier enemies in 2. He doesn't even use hotshot.

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I find that players typically don't realize that any home-brew or super-sniper combo they come up with can validly be turned back on them.

 

I think the players should have a mechanic in place to eliminate mooks and minions with a singular sniper shot from time to time. 

 

As has been said, they do. I'm playing in a game with a sniper-assassin. No fancy alt-ranks, no fancy gear beyond his long las + red-dot sight. He drops mooks frequently in 1 hits. Hardier enemies in 2. He doesn't even use hotshot.

 

 

That's more sharpshooting than recon sniping though. If he's using a red-dot sight, he's giving his position away prior to firing, and if he's frequently dropping mooks he's most likely fighting well within the medium range of his weapon.

 

I proposed an action that deals with an actual sniper's role in combat - to eliminate a target from a long distance with a near-gaurantee of death. It wasn't by far the best written, nor the most concretely written, as I had jotted it down as a quick response. My point of it was to demonstrate there certainly exists room for alternatives to perform this known role. 

 

I totally get the 'You can drop mooks with x add on with x weapon, using x talent" formula. However, all of these examples really break the immersion of the long range sniper. I really haven't had put much thought into this before, because I believe an investigation game of DH really doesn't merit a Sniper in most cases, but i can certainly see how the current rules really only support a sort of proto-sniper sharpshooter. 

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I find that players typically don't realize that any home-brew or super-sniper combo they come up with can validly be turned back on them.

 

The great equalizer however is that the players will have multiple fate points (hopefully, if they haven't had to spend them all yet surviving), as well as major non player characters will undoubtedbly have as well (Touched by Fate)

 

That tends to be less equalizing than one would assume. Consider how many enemies an acolyte cell usually engaged in a generic DH campaign. How many of them have access to snipers, booby traps, poisons, suicide bombers or any other number of "Hand over a Fate Point, thank you"-maneuvres? And how many Fate Points are handed out to deal with them?

Edited by Cifer

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That's true of any situation though, and not exclusive to this. They can burn a used fate point, though, so in the end if they truly want to survive they will. Unless of course they've burned all their fate points already. But in this isolated scenario regarding snipers, I don't think they should come across one with enough frequency to make it a normal hazard (Unless they are on a warzone, and then i'd wonder why keep stepping out in the open...)

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I find that players typically don't realize that any home-brew or super-sniper combo they come up with can validly be turned back on them.

 

I think the players should have a mechanic in place to eliminate mooks and minions with a singular sniper shot from time to time. 

 

As has been said, they do. I'm playing in a game with a sniper-assassin. No fancy alt-ranks, no fancy gear beyond his long las + red-dot sight. He drops mooks frequently in 1 hits. Hardier enemies in 2. He doesn't even use hotshot.

 

 

That's more sharpshooting than recon sniping though. If he's using a red-dot sight, he's giving his position away prior to firing, and if he's frequently dropping mooks he's most likely fighting well within the medium range of his weapon.

 

I proposed an action that deals with an actual sniper's role in combat - to eliminate a target from a long distance with a near-gaurantee of death. It wasn't by far the best written, nor the most concretely written, as I had jotted it down as a quick response. My point of it was to demonstrate there certainly exists room for alternatives to perform this known role. 

 

I totally get the 'You can drop mooks with x add on with x weapon, using x talent" formula. However, all of these examples really break the immersion of the long range sniper. I really haven't had put much thought into this before, because I believe an investigation game of DH really doesn't merit a Sniper in most cases, but i can certainly see how the current rules really only support a sort of proto-sniper sharpshooter. 

 

So, what are you asking for in this sniper idea?  The infil/exfil skills?  The ability to concentrate for hours/days?  The highly trained perception skills that allow you to track a target at such range?

 

I think these things exist in the game (albeit simplified).

 

Though in regards to the dot-sight, it's been a while since i read the actual description, but I thought they worked like actual dot-sights, not "laser" sights you see in movies.

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