Awakening Center/Tyr's Hand/Project Wotan & Femme Fatale Questions

[Maliseraph 6]

1) Can Femme Fatale be installed on the fly (via Self Modifying Code for example) in response to an Awakening center being used and then be used to bypass the new ICE? Or are you immediately encountering it and the window to bypass it is gone?

2) Can you use Project Wotan in response to electing to bypass to force the Runner to spend another credit? If they can't, do they keep their original credits? If you can't, do you have to do it before they try to bypass?

3) If you used Tyr's hand to prevent breaking a subroutine, could the Runner then use (or install and use) Femme Fatale to bypass the ice? Specific example: Rez Heimdal 1.0, click break (intending to e3 the rest), Tyr's Hand prevent, use SMC, install Femme and bypass.

4) Can you install a Femme Fatale ahead of time and target ICE in an Awakening Center? I think the answer is yes, but I wanted to ask for completeness.

[Grimwalker 647]

1) Yes. It all happens in step 4.3. First the Runner has opportunities to take paid abilities, then the corp may take actions and rez cards, then Awakening Center kicks the runner back to step 3 to encounter the ice, and you can do your Femme shenanigans. Femme specifies on encounter, so you can make use of the paid ability window.

 

2) No (but really yes.) If the ice is tagged by Femme, when it is approached in Step 2, you can add the extra subroutine. If they have $3 and that fourth subroutine puts it out of reach, they ETR without the ability to bypass. Bypass happens during the Encounter Ice in Step 3, so at that point it's too late since PW specifies on approach, not encounter. So, essentially, your second interpretation is correct.

 

3) I think that works. Tyr's Hand is tricksy. It's definitely a corner case anytime to stop midway through breaking Ice subroutines to say "screw it I'm using Femme."

 

4) Yes. It's Ice, it's installed, it's legit.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Grimwalker

[CommissarFeesh 458]

1) I believe no. AC is triggered when you pass the last piece of ICE, and has no approach step (it forces you to step 3). You have no opportunity to trigger SMC at that time. You'd need to SMC at step 3.1 of the last encountered ICE or sooner.

2) The runner has priority at the breaking step (3.1). Once they've declared what they're breaking, priority passes to you, so you can Project Wotan to add a subroutine. They would then be able to use more abilities (so they could break provided they have the resources remaining to do so).

3) No. 3.1 is too late to bypass, as bypassing happens on encounter (step 3.0). You're passed that trigger if you're already breaking.

4) Yes, but the Corp could just host more ICE on the AC and never choose to rez the one you Femme-targeted.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

2) No (but really yes.) If the ice is tagged by Femme, when it is approached in Step 2, you can add the extra subroutine. If they have $3 and that fourth subroutine puts it out of reach, they ETR without the ability to bypass. Bypass happens during the Encounter Ice in Step 3, so at that point it's too late since PW specifies on approach, not encounter. So, essentially, your second interpretation is correct.

 

3) I think that works. Tyr's Hand is tricksy. It's definitely a corner case anytime to stop midway through breaking Ice subroutines to say "screw it I'm using Femme."

Pretty sure you're wrong on these Grim. Subroutines don't resolve until step 3.2, and the corp still has a window at 3.1 to use Project Wotan.

See above for point 3 (Femme meets its conditional at step 3.0, step 3.1 is too late to install and bypass).

As for point 1, AC doesn't trigger at Step 4 at all, it happens as soon as you pass the last ICE, which is a separate trigger entirely.

[etherial 62]

 

2) No (but really yes.) If the ice is tagged by Femme, when it is approached in Step 2, you can add the extra subroutine. If they have $3 and that fourth subroutine puts it out of reach, they ETR without the ability to bypass. Bypass happens during the Encounter Ice in Step 3, so at that point it's too late since PW specifies on approach, not encounter. So, essentially, your second interpretation is correct.

 

3) I think that works. Tyr's Hand is tricksy. It's definitely a corner case anytime to stop midway through breaking Ice subroutines to say "screw it I'm using Femme."

Pretty sure you're wrong on these Grim. Subroutines don't resolve until step 3.2, and the corp still has a window at 3.1 to use Project Wotan.

See above for point 3 (Femme meets its conditional at step 3.0, step 3.1 is too late to install and bypass).

As for point 1, AC doesn't trigger at Step 4 at all, it happens as soon as you pass the last ICE, which is a separate trigger entirely.

 

Project Wotan can only be used on ICE "currently being approached". Grimwalker is correct on Question 2.

Edited January 2, 2014 by etherial

[CommissarFeesh 458]

 

 

2) No (but really yes.) If the ice is tagged by Femme, when it is approached in Step 2, you can add the extra subroutine. If they have $3 and that fourth subroutine puts it out of reach, they ETR without the ability to bypass. Bypass happens during the Encounter Ice in Step 3, so at that point it's too late since PW specifies on approach, not encounter. So, essentially, your second interpretation is correct.

 

3) I think that works. Tyr's Hand is tricksy. It's definitely a corner case anytime to stop midway through breaking Ice subroutines to say "screw it I'm using Femme."

Pretty sure you're wrong on these Grim. Subroutines don't resolve until step 3.2, and the corp still has a window at 3.1 to use Project Wotan.

See above for point 3 (Femme meets its conditional at step 3.0, step 3.1 is too late to install and bypass).

As for point 1, AC doesn't trigger at Step 4 at all, it happens as soon as you pass the last ICE, which is a separate trigger entirely.

 

Project Wotan can only be used on ICE "currently being approached". Grimwalker is correct on Question 2.

 

 

Ah! That'll teach me to read Project Wotan correctly in future Thankee-sai

[Grimwalker 647]

I started to compose some responses, but it all comes down to this: is Femme's ability a "When Encountered conditional," or is it a Paid Ability?  My answers were contingent on the latter interpretation, whereas Feesh (even though he's wrong about there being a step 3.0, I suppose for all intents and purposes, the conditional trigger is effectively that) is treating it as the former.

 

Frankly, I'd rather go with Feesh's answer as it really cuts down on freakish interactions. Out of curiosity, I looked up all the variations on "when you encounter", "when the runner encounters" etc. and I'm pretty sure he's correct. Things like Recon, Tollbooth, Pop-up, Matrix Analyzer--all that stuff is preliminary to the meat and potatoes of the encounter.

 

Part of the original confusion comes from Malseraph's language of "in response." It's a tell that there's a very fundamental error in how you're conceptualizing the game. You need to take a big black sharpie marker and draw a line through those two words. To a first approximation, there are no responses in Netrunner. In all various steps of the timing chart, there's just my effects and your effects. Usually, I trigger my effects, then it's your turn to trigger your effects, then I can trigger some more, then you can trigger some more until we're both done.

 

Some cards have specific, instantaneous triggers such as Tyr's Hand, that happen under specified circumstances--but those are specific instances where card text overrules the default state, and they're not "responses" per se, they're just specified occurences that X happens when Y happens. Even though we may use the phrase colloquially, technically at no time is anybody doing anything "in response" to their opponent.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

I started to compose some responses, but it all comes down to this: is Femme's ability a "When Encountered conditional," or is it a Paid Ability?  My answers were contingent on the latter interpretation, whereas Feesh (even though he's wrong about there being a step 3.0, I suppose for all intents and purposes, the conditional trigger is effectively that) is treating it as the former.

 

Yeah, the most up-to-date timing chart in the FAQ specifically states that 'When you encounter' ablities meet their trigger at step 3.0 (there is a step 3.0, it just doesn't contain a paid ability window).

 

Femme's bypass isn't a paid ability; it doesn't have the format [cost]:[effect]. It's a conditional triggered ability, as defined by the rulebook ('when [something] or whenever [something]').

 

The same applies to Awakening Centre (hence our difference of opinion there too). It's not a [cost]:[effect], so you don't wait for a paid ability window. it happens 'When the runner passes the last piece of ICE on the server', so it's triggered at that point. Interestingly, I think this means you can choose to trigger it BEFORE the runner decides to continue or jack out (I'd have to check the chart again to be sure though).

[Grimwalker 647]

Well, we don't have a difference of opinion anymore--I've come around on Femme. My initial answer on Femme install vs. AC was based on it being a paid ability--being a When Encountered ability makes it much more limited for on-the-fly installs.

 

Maybe i have an older PDF but there's no 3.0 on mine.  *Clicks around to Support page.*

[CommissarFeesh 458]

Ah, apologies, it's no longer 3.0, it's just 3

[Grimwalker 647]

hah ha! Victory is mine!
 

 

(I kid, I kid. Honestly, the reason I'm on the boards so much is I'd rather have the right answer than be right. And I have aspirations to T.O. events, so I have to check myself.)

Edited January 2, 2014 by Grimwalker

[Maliseraph 6]

If I follow you both correctly:

1) You say yes, there is a paid ability window and both SMC and Femme are usable at the time as well at 3.1 of the encounter. I disagree in detail in 3) below.

2) No, because I should have used it during the Approach portion, during the Encounter portion is too late. Which also means Project Wotan can never combo with Awakening Center as you skip the Approach step. (My bad, I misread the card.)

3) Unclear. I lean toward no for the following reasons (please correct if I am wrong), assuming Femme is not already in play when Awakening Center happens, just SMC:

While there is a paid ability window during this time at 3.1, if it is still the correct window to use Femme, Femme wasn't in play when you encountered the ice at 3, so it's conditional was not triggered.

But, if it is a paid ability it didn't need to be triggered, the Runner is currently encountering the ice, therefore they can use the ability.

Given the plain text of the card it reads like a conditional ("when you..., you may...") to me, rather than the usual "[cost]:[effect]" of a paid ability. That would make it seem that the Runner must have Femme in play before the encounter starts to have the conditional triggered, which they could normally do by using SMC during the Approach after a piece of ICE is rezzed, but Awakening Center skips straight to encountering, cutting that off.

If the Runner had used SMC beforehand, and had picked the particular ICE on AC I then go on to rez, then when that encounter starts the conditional is triggered and Femme can be used.

Essentialy, if Femme is a conditional, its trigger happens at 3, before 3.1's paid ability window, and so trying to use it at all during 3.1 is too late, meaning it also doesn't work in the case where the Runner had it in play and elected to break but got stymied by Tyr's Hand.

Assuming it is a Conditional, using it at 3.1 seems to be too late.

4) Yes, no real controversy there, just dubious utility.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

Actually I argued against 1) in my first post. I said you would have to SMC the Femme out before finishing the encounter with the last piece of ICE on the server.

Can't see any fault with the rest of your post. Femme is definitely a triggered effect at step 3, otherwise you'd have to resolve things like Tollbooth's on encounter effect, and we know that you don't from the FAQ.