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CrunchyDemon

Auto-Fire rifle or Disruptor?

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Why? He already lost it twice and had to steal it back, because as soon as it gets scanned it registers as illegal.

Perhaps the cost is a bit low, but it was also something I came up with on the spot as opposed to saying, "No, you guys can't make a new casing for that disruptor pistol even though you have a box full of functioning blaster pistols, training in Mechanics, and about a week of hyperspace travel on your hands."

Edited by JonahHex

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Cost-wise is what I meant, considering how expensive simple "+1 damage" mods are. Changing the casing would possibly entail rebuilding the underlying system to fit in a new casing (i.e. a disrupter pistol that looks like a heavy blaster pistol) and I would think that would be rather expensive to do. I agree that 2 HP is a good cost on that front though.

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How does one get a Critical 1 with a weapon that starts at Critical 3. I don't believe that Jury Rigged can be used multiple times on the same piece of equipment.

Likely by not paying attention to the rules and just assuming that Jury-Rigged can be used multiple times on the same item, with the most likely source being the assumption that the description listed in the talent tree has all the relevant information as opposed to just being a "quick snapshot" and that the Talents chapter has the full description.  Have seen folks presume that True Aim could be used on melee attacks (it can't) or that Barrage can be used with vehicle/starship weaponry for that very reason.

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Donovan, the description doesn't say it can't be the same gear... Or that it has to be different gear.

You guys should also consider the Superior quality option. A free lucky charm, and +1 damage, a Gadgeteer droid could reduce its weight, reduce its crit, and hide it in a secret compartment. (This weapon would crit, a lot.)

Our pit droid Slicer has a secret compartment in his body with Daunting Detect if searched. He has a Blaster Pistol, with a fully loaded BAM (the ships mechanic is incredibly good). He's stealthy and with that gun is more like your pocket battleship if given the opportunity. Of course... With a soak of 4, the response will be pretty lethal for the little guy. (Usually the player just hangs at the back of the group and shoots everyone in the back, by accident. His aim is pretty lousy...)

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How does one get a Critical 1 with a weapon that starts at Critical 3. I don't believe that Jury Rigged can be used multiple times on the same piece of equipment.

Likely by not paying attention to the rules and just assuming that Jury-Rigged can be used multiple times on the same item, with the most likely source being the assumption that the description listed in the talent tree has all the relevant information as opposed to just being a "quick snapshot" and that the Talents chapter has the full description.  Have seen folks presume that True Aim could be used on melee attacks (it can't) or that Barrage can be used with vehicle/starship weaponry for that very reason.

 

 

The full description of Jury Rigged reads:

 

The character chooses one personal weapon or piece of armor per rank of Jury Rigged. He may increase the damage of the weapon by one; decrease the Advantage cost on its Critical, or any single other effect by one to a minimum of one; or increase armor's ranged or melee defense by one. Alternately, he can decrease the encumbrance of the item by two to a minimum of one. The bonus only applies so long as the character is using the item. If the item is ever lost or destroyed, the character may apply Jury Rigged to a new personal weapon or piece of armor

 

I don't see how the talent prohibits you from applying it to the same weapon twice. Could you explain?

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The key parts are "chooses ONE personal weapon or piece of armor PER RANK of Jury Rigged."  There's the very strong suggestion (unless you're trying to metagame the rules) that each rank of Jury Rigged impacts a different item; or at the very least you have to choose a different enhancement if the GM allows for multiple ranks of Jury Rigged to be used on the same item.

 

Tinkerer has very similar wording to Jury Rigged, and is directly noted as only being usable once per item, likely brought up during the Beta period with players trying to use Tinkerer to add several hard points to the same item.

 

Also, the structure of how many of the attachments themselves work lends itself.  You generally can't add two forearm grips to the same weapon, nor have two balanced hilts, or two bipod mounts.

 

The writers felt they didn't need to follow the D&D 3rd edition route of spelling out every single element of the rules in exacting detail, which is why a lot of things aren't explicitly stated.

 

It's simply a case of the old gaming adage: If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.  And being able to quickly buy a blaster's Crit Rating from 3 to a 1 certainly counts as "too good to be true."

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Donovan, cool.

I don't read it that way. There's no reason the same equipment can't be chosen. I'd really need to see the word 'different' in there. A decade of Magic rules lawyering tends to beat any interpretations but what is clearly said out of you. I'd be looking for clarification on that if it was a real concern. (I don't think rules lawyers belong in the EOTE universe.)

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Donovan, thanks for the explanation. I can see where you're coming from, but I consider the other interpretation reasonable as well. I see the "one item per rank" restriction as the developers' way of saying, "You can only do this to one item, so you won't be able to apply these benefits to every weapon or every piece of armor you use."

 

When I read the description for Tinkerer, I see the similarity you note but come to the opposite conclusion. If the developers decided to spell out the prohibition in one area, I would expect them to do so in the other areas where it applies. They explain soak, strain and wounds three times, so I don't think they're obsessed with conserving ink.

 

I agree that players should use common sense when deciding how attachments and Jury Rigged can be applied. However, I would allow them to take the same benefit twice if they can come up with a way to justify it. Perhaps the gadgeteer with the deadly blaster you mentioned is using an unusual mix of gases and a risky-but-potent barrel pattern to give his beams such force that they almost always inflict a serious wound.

 

I don't see a one-crit ranged weapon as too good to be true. It's powerful, but that's what I would expect from talent tree abilities. Besides, allowing Jury-Rigged to apply twice to the same item allows combinations that make sense from a story perspective and present few mechanical problems. For example, I can see a bounty hunter increasing the damage of his stun rifle so he can take targets down quickly and reducing the encumbrance so he has less trouble dragging them away.

 

Having said that, this is one area where I would expect the group's social contract to come into play. If the player controlling the bounty hunter discovers that his tweaked-out blaster is creating problems for the GM or making the other players feel useless in combat, I'd expect his character to decide his modifications have made it too unreliable, reverse them, and use the talent on other weapons.

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Donovan, cool.

I don't read it that way. There's no reason the same equipment can't be chosen. I'd really need to see the word 'different' in there. A decade of Magic rules lawyering tends to beat any interpretations but what is clearly said out of you. I'd be looking for clarification on that if it was a real concern. (I don't think rules lawyers belong in the EOTE universe.)

Usually people misinterpret talents by only reading the talent trees and not the full text.  This is the opposite somewhat.  Combining the previously mentioned full talent text for Jury Rigged with the talent tree description which states "Choose 1 weapon, armor, or other item and give it a permanent improvement (as in singular) while it remains in use"  That pretty clearly, combined with the talent text, means a single item can receive one of the spelled out improvements.

 

Now one might be able to make a case for multiple uses of jury rigged to apply different single improvements, like a +1 damage and a -1 to crit rating, but no stacking imo.

Edited by 2P51

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I'm with Donovan here. if the opposite were true then having Jury Rigged at 10 points and then at 20 points for another rank makes absolutely no sense. What's the point in ranking on Jury Rigged if you can keep on going back to the same weapon with your one rank in Jury Rigged and roll to improve its crit down to a 1???

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Page 160 of my CRB says Disruptor Rifle has a base Crit of 2, and Heavy Blaster Rifle has a Crit of 3.  I used my singular rank of Jury Rigged on my Disruptor Rifle, thereby reducing its Crit to 1.

 

In the end, I've opted to stick with the Disruptor because of page 155 in the CRB reminding me that shooting a weapon on Auto-fire increases the difficulty of the check by one die.

 

I tossed a forearm grip on the thing for the Boost die, but I'll pass on taking an additional purple one on my checks.

 

Thanks for the responses!

Edited by CrunchyDemon

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In regards to Jury Rigged, I just got a reply back from Sam Stewart (really quick too, like less than 15 minutes quick).

 

His answer was that Jury Rigged is a "one item per rank" talent.  So each rank has to be applied to a separate item per the RAW.

 

So again, if it sounds too good to be true when it comes to grey areas in the rules, it probably is.

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In regards to Jury Rigged, I just got a reply back from Sam Stewart (really quick too, like less than 15 minutes quick).

His answer was that Jury Rigged is a "one item per rank" talent. So each rank has to be applied to a separate item per the RAW.

So again, if it sounds too good to be true when it comes to grey areas in the rules, it probably is.

Thanks!

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Neat. Could you post your question and the reply?

Even if homeboy did post this stuff you'd still just have to take his word for it. Your best bet is to contact the designers yourself if you're that interested. But in any event, it would be poor design to allow something like Jury Rigger to work on an item twice. This system is very young, and a lot different ways of modifying weapons -- not to mention potential specializations with the Jury Rigger talent -- don't even exist yet. Allowing multiple ranks of Jury Rigger to work on the same item would thus be pretty absurd, since there would be no way of controlling the power levels it could deliver without cutting it off all future talent trees.

Tabletop RPGs aren't like Magic: The Gathering. Money isn't involved, it's not a tournament, and it's not a competition in anything but the friendliest sense (and even then, not really). The rules are there to make the game more fun, and if they don't you can -- and SHOULD -- change them. Always exercise caution when doing so, but NEVER convince yourself that the option isn't on the table. It is.

Jury Rigger applying to the same weapon more than once is broken, even with a solid "explanation". The rules are quite expansive enough to cover lots of gear modifications without being forced to get silly with house ruled Jury Rigger stuff. Get creative, but also be mindful of the consequences.

Edited by JonahHex

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Neat. Could you post your question and the reply?

Like JonahHex said, you can either take my statement at my word, or consider me a liar.

 

I laid out both scenarios in detail, and Sam's reply was that the second scenario (each rank is applied to a separate item) was the correct interpretation.

 

If you don't believe me, you can certainly ask for yourself.

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Donovan, I didn't mean to imply that I doubted your integrity. I asked you to post the question and answer for two reasons:

1. In my professional life, I'm often required to interview people. Despite years of practice, I occasionally ask a question I think is clear only to have my subject interpret the question in an unintended way. I've also heard an answer one way during the interview only to realize while transcribing that my subject meant something else. While you seem to have a strong interest in alien species, I'm going to assume you're as human as I am and occasionally make the mistakes I make.

2. I'm used to the forums for Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 and Pathfinder, where people often post transcripts of their conversations with designers, customer service representatives and other rules authorities. Because the only other post I've seen on these forums regarding a clarification from Sam included his answer word for word, I assumed the same norms held here.

The rules lawyer in me might insist I ask Sam someday, but for now, "I laid out both scenarios in detail, and Sam's reply was that the second scenario (each rank is applied to a separate item) was the correct interpretation" is clear enough for me. Thanks for taking the time to participate in this discussion and making the effort to resolve it.

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