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aniedrig

Expanding Expansions

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Just came today to these forums since I was bothered by exactly the same things as the OP.

 

However I'm not so sure if this is a problem or not. 

I believe we have 3 issues:

 

1) Terrain - tiles from expansions are only used in the scenarios from expansion. Never will tiles from 2 expansions be mixed together. 

 

It might not be true. The tiles are numbered, like 43A from LoR. If future expansion needs such tile, it can easily be also present in this expansion.

 

This means that if some player buys a lot of expansion he might run into having more than one of each piece which isn't necessarily bad. We also have a quest vault where we can build multi-expansion scenarios. 

 

Also FFG could release multi-expansion scenarios that are only for players that have all of them or some set of them. 

 

2) Conditions:

 

a) From hero perspective, it is not a problem as there are a lot of abilities: Choose 1 condition. Target suffers that condition. Plus there are items in each expansion that use certain specific conditions and heroes will be able to obtain them. The more expansion are there the more items in shop decks, but the more we have options of "searching" through the deck to find what we need. 

 

b) from OL perspective he always has access to all conditions through the open groups. However, no new monsters will burn, which is thematically strange. 

 

But this could also be remedied, by introducing alternative lieutenant and monster cards. Or just monster and hero packs that would require certain expansions.

 

Also there could be, that some expansion in the future will again re-introduce burn. No big deal. 

 

OL could also get abilities where he can choose conditions freely, just as heroes. 

 

3) Dice - this is not a problem at all, since from Labirynth of Ruin each expansion will contain green dice. It is also not expected that some expansion in the future would introduce another die. And even if it is so, the cost of each expansion would be increased by 1 die. Not a huge cost, so no problem. 

 

-----

 

That said, I see a problem in the Lieutenant decks design. Lieutenants SHOULD/MUST be tied to the expansion they came from!!! I also don't like how some Lieutenant plot decks are ignoring the core rules that were brought by expansions. For example Belthir ignores the fact that there is a Basic II deck in LoR. 

 

IMO this should be re-thinked by FFG. 

 

 

 

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The thing is; not everybody buys expansions, much less all of them, so it's only a problem for a very vocal minority. I can't afford everything FFG comes out with for this game. Hell, I didn't even know board games had expansions! Yeah some things aren't perfect or could have used some forethought in the initial design; like conditions, but I still love the game as it is and I'm surprised they actually take our input into consideration.

 

IMHO Dragons should all have "Burn" they spit fire after all... Maybe FFG will come up with a solution, like updated cards for old monsters with new conditions in the next expansions where they could start repeating conditions.

Edited by Subt1e

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Pretty sure they would just include the condition cards again in an expansion if they use it. 

They did that for a few things - only the secret rooms comes to mind atm, but I know there is more.

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uhm - i've read this quite often now.

 

everyone keeps talking about heroes and monsters getting REDESIGNS in the upcoming "Hero and Monster Collections"

some people say that monsters, heroes, feats and stats will be changed or adjusted.

i have not found any official statement to this and am inclined to say that there is NO redesign in terms of game mechanics, only a visual upgrade - or do i miss out on something?

 

since everymonster and hero was put into the conversion kit they cannot change any mechanic they have introduced already - or can they?

 

also i do not think it likely, that monsters will get expansion-like abilities, such like burn, because again - you would need to buy an expansion for the collection to work - which would be again against ffg's expanding-habits....

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Krawallburste, the preview clearly shows that shiver has had at least 2 hp added to his total from the conversion kit even if it does not say it in words the image is visible. 

As these are expansions in their own right there is no practical reason that they cannot include conditions and tokens as necessary as it would allow everyone who bought the expansion access to the conditions/dice/ability in the same mold that they do now.

Subt1e likes this

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Digging this thread back up as the recent heroes and monsters expansion has set a new precedent:

 

The first of the heroes and monsters expansion has added in an extra rumor card, the rule book for the heroes and monsters expansion offered no rumor quest rules; so in essence FFG has started expanding expansions. It might be to a lesser degree than some have hoped, but its still noteworthy.

Edited by BentoSan

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One of possible solution for this issue is to release a themed monster/hero packs. For example release all fire monsters/heroes in a single box with burning condition cards inside.

 

for condition, the best one yeat, make themed monster/hero packs, easy to do, and fixing the problem,

same for green die,

would love to se burning condition on Hellhound,  doom on Dark priest, weakened on Shade, cursed on Ferrox, for example

its not hard to put in some burning card and tokens inside, i would gladly pay extra if it cost ffg extra to do,

same whit heroes,  would love to se new conditions on some

and the green die, make one monster expansion whit heroes that needs the green die and monsters.

:wub: ffg DO THIS :wub:

problem solved......... :ph34r: .........

Edited by maldion

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I dont think monsters having traits would work, how do we distinguish what traits the existing monsters have easily ? without having to refer to some document that is which would make the game a bit annoying, ie everything thats needed to know about the monster should be written on the card.

 

How do we know what existing conditions have what traits ? There is nothing indicating on the all cards released up to date have which trait. 

 

Its an interesting idea, don't get me wrong but i feel its only a plan that could have worked if they were implemented from the beginning of the base game.

 

The ideas that have been brought up though are indeed good game design ideas that should have been thought about when creating the original base game.

 

This is a long overdue response, but the thread came to the top.

 

It's not too late- the "traits" wouldn't need to be listed on the cards themselves- you would just need to release a card, say 1 copy for each player, that outlines the conditions and which traits they possess. A "condition summary" card, much like the "turn summary" card that currently exists. It wouldn't even have to retroactively restrict monsters that have specific condition abilities listed.

 

A single release could contain only the reference card, and potentially (not required) condition cards and tokens. The only limitation to a release like this is that it would have to be done AFTER all conditions for the game have been published.

 

EDIT: Come to think of it, this could be a purely OL mechanic. The heroes wouldn't need their own cards, since each weapon can still be printed with specific conditions.

Edited by Zaltyre

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It's not too late- the "traits" wouldn't need to be listed on the cards themselves- you would just need to release a card, say 1 copy for each player, that outlines the conditions and which traits they possess. A "condition summary" card, much like the "turn summary" card that currently exists. It wouldn't even have to retroactively restrict monsters that have specific condition abilities listed.

 

I think it'll be more likely that something like this would come up in a Lieutenant Pack. Include the condition in the Lt. Pack and have one of the cards say something to the effect of "Play this card at the start of an encounter. For the duration of the encounter, each attack from a monster with the Fire trait gains "(surge): Burning".

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It's not too late- the "traits" wouldn't need to be listed on the cards themselves- you would just need to release a card, say 1 copy for each player, that outlines the conditions and which traits they possess. A "condition summary" card, much like the "turn summary" card that currently exists. It wouldn't even have to retroactively restrict monsters that have specific condition abilities listed.

 

I think it'll be more likely that something like this would come up in a Lieutenant Pack. Include the condition in the Lt. Pack and have one of the cards say something to the effect of "Play this card at the start of an encounter. For the duration of the encounter, each attack from a monster with the Fire trait gains "(surge): Burning".

 

Also doable.I don't mind the limited infliction of conditions, as it's (often) a good idea to just do more damage anyway.

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This is a long overdue response, but the thread came to the top.

 

It's not too late- the "traits" wouldn't need to be listed on the cards themselves- you would just need to release a card, say 1 copy for each player, that outlines the conditions and which traits they possess. A "condition summary" card, much like the "turn summary" card that currently exists. It wouldn't even have to retroactively restrict monsters that have specific condition abilities listed.

 

A single release could contain only the reference card, and potentially (not required) condition cards and tokens. The only limitation to a release like this is that it would have to be done AFTER all conditions for the game have been published.

 

EDIT: Come to think of it, this could be a purely OL mechanic. The heroes wouldn't need their own cards, since each weapon can still be printed with specific conditions.

 

 

 

 

Don't you think its incredibly game breaking just slapping a condition onto every monster in the game ?

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Yes- I like that conditions aren't an every attack occurrence- it would also greatly detract from monster differentiation. I'm not suggesting FFG implement this idea, I'm just suggesting a model by which it could be implemented.

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One of possible solution for this issue is to release a themed monster/hero packs. For example release all fire monsters/heroes in a single box with burning condition cards inside.

 

for condition, the best one yeat, make themed monster/hero packs, easy to do, and fixing the problem,

same for green die,

would love to se burning condition on Hellhound,  doom on Dark priest, weakened on Shade, cursed on Ferrox, for example

its not hard to put in some burning card and tokens inside, i would gladly pay extra if it cost ffg extra to do,

same whit heroes,  would love to se new conditions on some

and the green die, make one monster expansion whit heroes that needs the green die and monsters.

:wub: ffg DO THIS :wub:

problem solved......... :ph34r: .........

 

 

yes, that would be a possibility, which FFG might actually do. I hope someone from FFG reads the forums and thinks about this issue.

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Honestly I think FFG should have just bit the bullet on this and included the condition cards and tokens from previous expansions in the new boxes as they released them. Are people really gonna get on these forums and say "There's no point in buying Lair of the Wyrm cuz FFG is just gonna include the burning condition in the next expansion!"? I really don't think the community would feel cheated by that nor would FFG lose out on sales and it would give them more freedom in monster design if they knew everyone had all the condition cards and tokens. It may too late to do this now but I would appreciate it if they did that with their expansion going forward.

 

The only other solution I can think of would be to include a new set of Basic overlord cards in an expansion with cards to the effect of "Play this card when a monster attacks a hero, after dice have been rolled. This attack gains: [surge]: if this attack deals at least 1 [heart] of damage, after defence dice have been rolled, apply a condition of your choice" 

 

This is not the most elegant of solutions as it requires an overlord card which would make the condition more costly to inflict and it messes with the game a bit thematically because then an ettin could inflict the burning condition but it would get the job done. Just my 2 cents :)  

griton likes this

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The only other solution I can think of would be to include a new set of Basic overlord cards in an expansion with cards to the effect of "Play this card when a monster attacks a hero, after dice have been rolled. This attack gains: [surge]: if this attack deals at least 1 [heart] of damage, after defence dice have been rolled, apply a condition of your choice"

That appears to be the direction they're going. There are a couple of cards like this in SoN.

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Meaning no disrespect to any person here, if you choose a monster from a group couldn't you pull the card with the  effect you want and stack the two cards dropping one effect and adding one. as long as both sides agree. Or if your a story telling overlord like myself you play the devils advocate trying to fairly taking down my players but giving them a cinematic experience with the monster effect you think fit best.

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Meaning no disrespect to any person here, if you choose a monster from a group couldn't you pull the card with the  effect you want and stack the two cards dropping one effect and adding one. as long as both sides agree. Or if your a story telling overlord like myself you play the devils advocate trying to fairly taking down my players but giving them a cinematic experience with the monster effect you think fit best.

 

Dude ... Seriously?  This is an INTERNET FORUM ... you can't start being all reasonable in here ... what the eff?!!!   :P  :D

NotBatman likes this

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If we are going to expend FFGs resources looking back, then it could cost us in them going forward.  I believe this forum is filled with very good overlords who can through these threads share ideas. I know my game has benefitted greatly from these exchanges. I think like the green dice we as the overlord are charged with making this a fun ride for both groups if working a little out of the box makes it fun , to keep a balance for each thing you get as the overlord you give the players something. I believe that asking a company to correct one card is fine but to pull them to rewrite all these cards, I would rather have a new and shiny item.

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Has FFG made any statements about not using new conditions across different expansions?  I scanned through the 4 pages so far, and didn't see anything, for example, that would stop a new expansion coming out with Weaken/Burn etc. in it.

 

In that case, couldn't the expansion just include a copy of the condition card?  FFG already does this with X-Wing, where you can find some expansion cards in multiple ship packs. 

 

The idea only becomes a problem when you have a creature that includes a condition and you don't include the condition card.

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Conditions is not the thing is want the most.

 

But most monsters would have been better with green dice. Hope there would be some with some packs

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Conditions is not the thing is want the most.

 

But most monsters would have been better with green dice. Hope there would be some with some packs

 

I can agree with that for sure, the green dice makes alot of sense for some monsters it would be a shame if all the hero and monster expansions did not utilise them.

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