Morgul Vale - Captain Murzag "forced" effect question

[kyrie 44]

Captain enemy, Murzag, in the Morgul Vale has the forced effect: "After Murzag attacks, reveal the top card of the encounter deck. If that card is an enemy, put it into play engaged with the defending player."

 

My question is, since it specifically says "reveal the top card" does that mean

 

(1) if it is a location it goes to the staging area and if it is a treachery you follow it's when revealed effects and doomed effects as normal?

Or (2) do you simply "reveal the top card" in the sense of the Ravens of the Mountain player card which intended to say "look at the top card" instead of "reveal"?

 

Or, (3) which is how I have played it before, you simply discard the card and don't resolve it's effects unless it is an enemy?

 

My hunch is that the first way is the correct one, even though that seems really powerful to reveal another card and add more threat to the staging if it's a location or trigger a nasty treachery card.

 

How have some of you been dealing with Murzag???

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Darn it, how did I miss that?  I played it by discarding the card unresolved if it is not an enemy, but Murzag's effect clearly says "reveal" so yeah, that card will have to be resolved.  Location to the staging area, resolve Doomed, Surge effects, resolve any When Revealed effects...

 

Looking back at my first win on this quest, it seems I made a mistake and got 1 free pass out of Murzag's effect.  Well, I also dealt a shadow card to an enemy that he put into play, which I guess you shouldn't do.... and that shadow card had a substantial impact on the game, so maybe it balances out

Edited December 6, 2013 by GrandSpleen

[kyrie 44]

I think you are correct. It doesn't seem like the designers would make the same mistake twice as they did with Ravens of the Mountain, so this was most likely intentional, as it just adds to the increased difficulty of the final boss battle of the cycle.

 

But don't feel bad! I missed it too for my first couple play-throughs...just think of it as another excuse to play the quest again though! I finally got my first "real" win with it now, resolving the when revealed effects and such. It does make a big difference at the start of the game, since you don't have too many things set in place, and this forced effect makes you want to rush to the next stage, but then you have to face another Captain who has an even nastier forced effect.

 

I was able to handle it ok with Beregond and his Gondorian Shield and Spear of the Citadel. It's insane how beastly he can get on the first turn since those attachments can be played for free!

[Nerdmeister 144]

I got managed to put this Murzag, following an effect that returned him to the staging area:

 

"Oh what´s that you say, Murzag? I canz have 4 rounds to set up my game for the next couple of rounds? You shouldn´t have, now I haz all mine alliez to help me out. Promise won´t be too rough on you"

 

[kyrie 44]

I got managed to put this Murzag, following an effect that returned him to the staging area:

 

"Oh what´s that you say, Murzag? I canz have 4 rounds to set up my game for the next couple of rounds? You shouldn´t have, now I haz all mine alliez to help me out. Promise won´t be too rough on you"

 

 

Awesome. I wasn't running lore at the time, but that seems like it would work somewhat consistently every game since the location effect forces Murzag back to staging area, unless you reveal an enemy for your first card.

[leptokurt 242]

Captain enemy, Murzag, in the Morgul Vale has the forced effect: "After Murzag attacks, reveal the top card of the encounter deck. If that card is an enemy, put it into play engaged with the defending player."

 

My question is, since it specifically says "reveal the top card" does that mean

 

(1) if it is a location it goes to the staging area and if it is a treachery you follow it's when revealed effects and doomed effects as normal?

Or (2) do you simply "reveal the top card" in the sense of the Ravens of the Mountain player card which intended to say "look at the top card" instead of "reveal"?

 

Or, (3) which is how I have played it before, you simply discard the card and don't resolve it's effects unless it is an enemy?

 

My hunch is that the first way is the correct one, even though that seems really powerful to reveal another card and add more threat to the staging if it's a location or trigger a nasty treachery card.

 

How have some of you been dealing with Murzag???

 

First I think that if 1) was correct someone should shoot the designer. The scenario is in solo mode already hard enough as it is, but with that addition it's close to impossible if you don't have traps, Dunhere or Feint. Or Outlands, that is.

 

Secondly, I don't think that locations should be added to the staging area, as there is no instruction to do so. Compare to quest card 3B "The Morgul Rider" and its text: When Revealed: "Reveal 1 card per player from the encounter deck and add it to the staging area." Everytime you have to add a card to the staging area, you have been instructed to do so.

 

That would still mean that a player has to trigger all "when revealed" effects, but honestly I think they screwed up again. My guess is that they meant the revealed card to be discarded, if it is not an enemy.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Any time a location is revealed, you would resolve any "when revealed" effects and then add it to the staging area, right?  Per core set manual rules.  I didn't think we'd need a specific instruction on the card to do so.

 

I agree the effect is kind of overkill.  The scenario is hard enough already   I think they had Glaurung in mind when they made it....

Edited December 7, 2013 by GrandSpleen

[leptokurt 242]

Any time a location is revealed, you would resolve any "when revealed" effects and then add it to the staging area, right?  Per core set manual rules.  I didn't think we'd need a specific instruction on the card to do so.

 

I agree the effect is kind of overkill.  The scenario is hard enough already   I think they had Glaurung in mind when they made it....

I think Glaurung took Caleb as hostage and made it all by himself.

 

I checked the core set rules and I found nothing there that implicates that a card gets added to the staging area when it is revealed from the encounter phase outside of the staging step. IIRC all of the cards that are added to staging area outside of the staging step have a specific instruction to do so ("... and add it to the staging area"). In this quest we have Might of Mordor, quest card 3B The Morgul Rider and Impenetrable Fog which all have that addition.

 

I'm going to ask Caleb about this.

[Glaurung 444]

 

Captain enemy, Murzag, in the Morgul Vale has the forced effect: "After Murzag attacks, reveal the top card of the encounter deck. If that card is an enemy, put it into play engaged with the defending player."

 

My question is, since it specifically says "reveal the top card" does that mean

 

(1) if it is a location it goes to the staging area and if it is a treachery you follow it's when revealed effects and doomed effects as normal?

Or (2) do you simply "reveal the top card" in the sense of the Ravens of the Mountain player card which intended to say "look at the top card" instead of "reveal"?

 

Or, (3) which is how I have played it before, you simply discard the card and don't resolve it's effects unless it is an enemy?

 

My hunch is that the first way is the correct one, even though that seems really powerful to reveal another card and add more threat to the staging if it's a location or trigger a nasty treachery card.

 

How have some of you been dealing with Murzag???

 

First I think that if 1) was correct someone should shoot the designer. The scenario is in solo mode already hard enough as it is, but with that addition it's close to impossible if you don't have traps, Dunhere or Feint. Or Outlands, that is.

 

Secondly, I don't think that locations should be added to the staging area, as there is no instruction to do so. Compare to quest card 3B "The Morgul Rider" and its text: When Revealed: "Reveal 1 card per player from the encounter deck and add it to the staging area." Everytime you have to add a card to the staging area, you have been instructed to do so.

 

That would still mean that a player has to trigger all "when revealed" effects, but honestly I think they screwed up again. My guess is that they meant the revealed card to be discarded, if it is not an enemy.

 

Pretty sure they skewed up again as usual

[alogos 171]

Secondly, I don't think that locations should be added to the staging area, as there is no instruction to do so. Compare to quest card 3B "The Morgul Rider" and its text: When Revealed: "Reveal 1 card per player from the encounter deck and add it to the staging area." Everytime you have to add a card to the staging area, you have been instructed to do so.

 

That would still mean that a player has to trigger all "when revealed" effects, but honestly I think they screwed up again. My guess is that they meant the revealed card to be discarded, if it is not an enemy.

 

 

"and add it to the staging area" is redundant and implicit in the "reveal".

There is quests that are utterly hard in solo (Dol Guldur) and easy in multiplayer and the other way around (Assault on Osgiliath).

[kyrie 44]

Interesting discussion on this. I agree with the fact that whenever they have told us to add cards to the staging area outside the quest phase then they usually say so (even if it might be redundant). However, key words like "reveal" usually mean the when revealed effects should trigger, that's why they had to errata Ravens of the Mountain to say "look at."

 

I think Glaurung may be right and they did mess this one up like with Ravens of the Mountain after all, it seems. I hope not, and rather we are missing something, since it is just silly for the designers at this stage in the game (given they have established certain phrases and key words by now) to miss something as critical as their wording on the Captain card. I understand mistakes happen, and unforeseen broken combos may arise, but this kind of mistake (if indeed it is) is not right.

 

Leptokurt, please report back with what you find out from Caleb, as this really does alter the difficulty of the quest significantly, especially for solo players as someone mentioned.

[Glaurung 444]

Interesting discussion on this. I agree with the fact that whenever they have told us to add cards to the staging area outside the quest phase then they usually say so (even if it might be redundant). However, key words like "reveal" usually mean the when revealed effects should trigger, that's why they had to errata Ravens of the Mountain to say "look at."

 

I think Glaurung may be right and they did mess this one up like with Ravens of the Mountain after all, it seems. I hope not, and rather we are missing something, since it is just silly for the designers at this stage in the game (given they have established certain phrases and key words by now) to miss something as critical as their wording on the Captain card. I understand mistakes happen, and unforeseen broken combos may arise, but this kind of mistake (if indeed it is) is not right.

 

Leptokurt, please report back with what you find out from Caleb, as this really does alter the difficulty of the quest significantly, especially for solo players as someone mentioned.

First I think yes is a new terms revealed without add to thr staging area so it means resolve whem revealed and discard a card. But then I remembered history of the game I say my self: probably as usual they just miss up again. Sorry it was couple of times begote why I not should be a sceptic a bit???

I like Caleb, Leptokurt he is best from all of them.

please we need a official answer. Hope im wrong.

[leptokurt 242]

I got an answer from Caleb. Not sure if you like it:

 

Hi Jörg,
Since "reveal and add to the staging area" is just long-hand for "reveal" we've mostly stopped using "and add to the staging area" in order to save space and allow room for more effects or flavor text. Therefore, Murzag's Forced effect works the same as any other effect that forces players to reveal cards from the encounter deck: resolve any "when revealed" effects and keywords, then resolve the staging of that card. If it is a treachery card, it is discarded after resolving its effects. If it is a location, add it to the staging area. If it is an enemy, Murzag's ability instructs the defending player to put it into play engaged with him instead of adding it to the staging area. That enemy will make an attack since it is still the "resolve enemy attacks" part of the combat phase, but it will not be dealt a shadow card.
Hope you're enjoying the conclusion of the Against the Shadow cycle!
Caleb

 

[Tracker1 317]

This is rough for the solo player. Other then my Low threat Dunhere Deck I have yet to beat TMV, and now this will even make it more difficult.

[leptokurt 242]

This is rough for the solo player. Other then my Low threat Dunhere Deck I have yet to beat TMV, and now this will even make it more difficult.

Oh yeah, Dunhere! Praise him! I guess you're also running a Rohan deck (Eowyn, Dunhere, Hama)?

[Tracker1 317]

This is rough for the solo player. Other then my Low threat Dunhere Deck I have yet to beat TMV, and now this will even make it more difficult.

Oh yeah, Dunhere! Praise him! I guess you're also running a Rohan deck (Eowyn, Dunhere, Hama)?

Actually the deck I used was Dunhere, Merry, and Frodo. Here is a link to the deck.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/93807-dunhere-is-back/

[kyrie 44]

Thanks for sharing Caleb's ruling. I am actually glad that they intended it to work the way they worded it on the card more or less. It beats having to errata it. Extra difficulty is always good for the last quest of the cycle as well. Bring it on, Murzag!

[Glaurung 444]

I love this Caleb rule explanation. So revealed is just short of revealed and add....

And more difficult is always cool. Last 3 quests of the cycle is really good!

[Glaurung 444]

This quest is really brutal. I made it in 2 players but still sucks solo..... Thorin company also stuck....... cool! I love challenge

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

I love how direct damage cards shine at the end of this quest... Heavy Stroke, Dwarrowdelf Axe, a Gondorian Spearman, and of course Mr. Gandalf all had a say in that Nazgul's demise.  And the decision to hang on to those cards throughout the game was painful but precious...

[PsychoRocka 1,189]

I got managed to put this Murzag, following an effect that returned him to the staging area:

 

"Oh what´s that you say, Murzag? I canz have 4 rounds to set up my game for the next couple of rounds? You shouldn´t have, now I haz all mine alliez to help me out. Promise won´t be too rough on you"

 

This is potentially my favorite post on these forums so far. Epic use of ranger spikes (one of the greatest lore cards), massive embarrasment of Murzag who is a utter ****** and hilarious cat picture to illustrate your massing of allies!