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divinityofnumber

ROTATION!

59 posts in this topic

FFG - consider two tournament formats for this game. 

 

1) The core set, deluxe expansions, and the last two cycles worth of chapter packs. 

2) All cards (given the banned and restricted lists)

 

It would make it easier for new players to enter the game!

Edited by divinityofnumber
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Could not disagree more. The learning curve is steep but if you persevere you reap the rewards.

 

As things are works perfectly

 

I know. I have been playing since the beginning of the LCG and own all of the cards. But, I keep hearing people say that the buy-in is the big hurdle, the thing preventing them from jumping in and playing. 

 

It would be cool if tournaments had two formats. 

 

I would NEVER be for using the rotation method as the default way that AGoT is played. I love using the entire card pool. 

 

But, having a side-tournament in which only a limited pool was used would be cool. 

 

Yes, that is similar to what draft is covering, but not exactly. 

 

Also, excuse the CAPS in the title; that was the result of one too many glasses of wine and reading that Warhammer Invasion just died. I don't want AGoT to die. 

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Could not disagree more. The learning curve is steep but if you persevere you reap the rewards.

The problem is that "if." With the HBO series still going strong, this is a ripe time for expanding the AGoT playerbase. But not everyone is willing to drop hundreds of their hard-earned dollars and see what good comes of it. The whole draw of the LCG format is its accessibility, and having to track down dozens and dozens of gaming products in order to compete removes that. Players will just shrug and go back to playing Magic.

There needs to be a way to ease new players into this game. Notice that divinityofnumber is not proposing we drop the unlimited format. This would just be an alternative format in which newer players could have the full experience of the game, before making the hige investment required to play with those who have been here since the beginning.

Edited by MarthWMaster

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Drafting makes everything easier. If you want new players that won't be deterred by the large card pool, make drafting a thing once the packs come out.

snaggrriss likes this

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As a new player myself, I've got to say, tournament rules mean nothing to me. It's how my local casual group plays that matters to me. The thing that turns me off the most is the hidden complexity of the rules - I should be able to know how cards interact without ever hearing the words "Framework Action Window" :(

If your local group plays a bunch of championship net-decked builds using cards from the last 5 years, and won't let you proxy or lend you cards, then it could be un-fun. But the answer to that is more "stop being jerks" than "change the tournament rules", I think.

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If your local group plays a bunch of championship net-decked builds using cards from the last 5 years, and won't let you proxy or lend you cards, then it could be un-fun. But the answer to that is more "stop being jerks" than "change the tournament rules", I think.

 

+1 Especially about not lending.

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To be honest I think all unofficial tournies should allow proxies. So long as they are full color and good quality there is no real reason not to allow it. Some may say "the difference in quality of proxies is subjective", and that's true, but I think as a community we all know if a proxy would be tourney acceptable or not.

Bomb, sbarnabas and RobotMartini like this

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To be honest I think all unofficial tournies should allow proxies. So long as they are full color and good quality there is no real reason not to allow it. Some may say "the difference in quality of proxies is subjective", and that's true, but I think as a community we all know if a proxy would be tourney acceptable or not.

Totally agree.  Then I could build a deck, print it out and play, instead of trying to dig through the nightmare that is my card stack.  Seriously, this would be amazing.

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I agree about proxies as long as they are copies of the actual card and are legible.  I've had to borrow cards before and you can easily end up forgetting to return them or somehow losing them on the person.  To be honest, I don't know about having a full deck being all proxies.  I think running only a few would be more reasonable.

 

EDIT:  I'm speaking of non-FFG sanctioned tournaments.  Any official tournament I would not agree with proxies.

Edited by Bomb

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I think that there is precedent via MTG for allowing use of proxies. Didn't MTG lower-level events allow proxies of some older and very expensive cards for a while?

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I think that there is precedent via MTG for allowing use of proxies. Didn't MTG lower-level events allow proxies of some older and very expensive cards for a while?

 

Well the MtG rules for proxies pretty much explicitly state you have to have a copy of the card, so they can't really be applied here:

 

"Proxies

 

Proxies are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments pursuant to the official tournament rules. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear. Proxies do not include any graphical reproduction of their intended substitutes." - Wizards.com

 

That being said, there is no inherent reason that an unofficial tournament couldn't allow proxies other than choosing not to.

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I thought that in Legacy MTG allowed a proxy or two for some of the old cards that cost thousands of dollars. I could, of course, be wrong, but think that I remember that. 

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interestingly enough, i fall on the complete opposite side of the fence regarding proxies when it comes to CCGs. Probably because for CCGs, obtaining the cards is actually part of the game, in LCGs it is not because everything is available to everyone by default.

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You might be thinking of Vintage tournaments (in Legacy, the insanely priced cards are banned, because they're also insanely powerful). I think WotC doesn't organize any Vintage tournaments, but they do organize Legacy tournaments.

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I thought that in Legacy MTG allowed a proxy or two for some of the old cards that cost thousands of dollars. I could, of course, be wrong, but think that I remember that. 

 

I actually thought the same thing, but Googled it just to be sure. I was equally surprised that the official rules said that. I was expecting proxies for Black Lotus and Moxes to be considered acceptable, but I think Khudzlin is right about the Vintage thing.

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In non-sanctioned MtG Vintage Tournaments, they usually allow 9 - 12 proxies, they also usually have high-stakes prizes like actual power-9 cards. 

 

I should point out FFG has League Play which is Core + current LCG cycle. 

 

Also: in MtG if you want to build a deck that can even do OK in Friday Night Magic, you are expecting to spend upwards of $200-300. 

 

For local play Core + Expansion + 1-2 specific chapter packs can get you a decent starting point. You still will not win much at first, since you are a new player. 

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I actually thought the same thing, but Googled it just to be sure. I was equally surprised that the official rules said that. I was expecting proxies for Black Lotus and Moxes to be considered acceptable, but I think Khudzlin is right about the Vintage thing.

 

Well, Black Lotus and the Moxes are legal only in Vintage (and even in that format, they're limited to 1 copy in the deck).

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Bloodycelt said:

"I should point out FFG has League Play which is Core + current LCG cycle. "

 

Wait what? Is that the format that leagues are 'supposed' to run on?

Edited by imrahil327

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Bloodycelt said:

"I should point out FFG has League Play which is Core + current LCG cycle. "

 

Wait what? Is that the format that leagues are 'supposed' to run on?

 

News to me as well...

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I can't find it, this was from two years ago, they released kits and a "League" type play which was Core + Current LCG cycle.

This wasn't a tournament format, it was a casual learn the game for new comers format. 

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Just noticed at the Chinese Tournament there was also an event using a core , deluxe, and ;the last 2 cycles. Few years back FFg had a deckbuilding contest that used core deluxe 1 cycle of your choice. Thinking of incorporating this into next league play. Ease some of our newer players into competitive play.

 as card pool keeps getting increasingly bigger might have to split formats. Like Magic standard and legacy?

 

Rotation would be a great idea. The size of the card pool turns many new players away from this game. Many it doesn't phase. They just buy them all in a matter of a few months. :)

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Meh?

 

This topic comes up every few months since the dawn of time. The arguments are always the same for both sides, and those arguments are largely speculative, anecdotal and/or from individual perspectives. The logistical and financial realities remain the same for FFG:

 

1. the consumer base is relatively small and alienating any part of it endangers profit. (read: rotating out long time players' cards)

 

2. the more $15 MSRP products in circulation, the more potential sales they can make. Additionally, by having multiple designers' eras in the pool, future packs can add value to old packs, which boosts sales/value of old, stale inventory on retailer shelves. (see: Bannermen and kingsguard traits in the current cycle)

 

3. while an imperfect solution, the restricted list gives the design team fairly precise control over game issues AND generates a community need to 'flock to the website' now and again to stay up to date. (read: slightly annoying, but does incentivize the community to gather and form a dialog of sorts about the game, in a venue controlled and observed by the designers)

 

3b. if the competitive scene is truly getting stale, FFG hears about it and, while hit or miss, can ban hammer its way out of the corner. (see: so long Long Voyage and Maesters who?)

 

Unless rotation guarantees FFG dramatic player base and sales growth compared to what they've got, there is no reason to do it. To be blunt, Thrones is a niche product with overly complex core rules and just doesn't have the sales potential to justify the risk. (without heavy investment into the App space and brand awareness campaigns that FFG has probably already identified as more costly than their potential rewards would justify)

Edited by RobotMartini
Toqtamish, CowboyJesus and mdc273 like this

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