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FrozenSolid

Two major flaws in Eldritch Horror

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Yep. Its good to get an investigator, like Charlie, sitting on London to spawn (and acquire) clues. It can also work if you get a casting investigator (Jacqueline best option) who has gained the Plumb the Void spell.  She can spawn clues, give clues, and move others, while remaining sitting in London spawning clues (and sometimes gaining them herself from the London cards).

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There are several cards in EH that you never want to draw. I won't list them here, you'll find them on your own! The same was true of Arkham Horror - it's just one of the things that make these games good, you can't "coast" and you never feel safe 'cos just around the corner something really bad might be waiting for you. IMO it's not the cards that are the problem per se, it's how often you can expect to see them that's the "problem". It's quite long odds that you'll see the same encounter card twice in a game and be in the same type of location the second time around (remember, there are three encounters per card for most decks), however if you don't like these gut-punch cards you can always remove them, or remove them after you've seen them once. So, overall, I'm not overly sympathetic to your point of view, but I agree that it adds weight to the argument that the base game is a little light on cards because some dilution would help ensure that the occasions when you just get hosed would be rare. Getting hosed occasionally is just part of the Mythos experience, but it shouldn't be a regular occurrence.

My problem with it is that it just pads gametime. "This game should take 3 hours. Oh it's now going to take 4 because the first was wasted". It might make the game harder, but it's a horrible mechanic for it. I hate it in games, and I hate it at work. And when getting paid isn't enough to make up for the feeling of wasted time saying the game is "thematic" won't do either. I'd house rule that card. There are better ways of making the game harder.

The issue with few cards is the reason I'm going to wait for a smallbox expansion before getting this. Or on sale/used and play a few times so the game doesn't grow stale. Which it will with so few cards to experience. Heck, my dad will probably end up card counting...

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2) Losing solved mysteries is the worst mechanic. It nearly ruined our first experience of the game. We had just completed our first mystery, and had started on our second. Around the same time, we had shuffled the research deck causing us to get a repeat research encounter. Oh boy brain surgery again! :rolleyes: Oh, this time we failed. "Take one solved mystery, and shuffle it back into the mystery deck" :huh: Wait, what?

 

It's not just a frustrating mechanic, it also appears to be completely unbalanced. There's no way that the game is properly balanced around solving three mysteries, but if you randomly get this particular skill check and fail it the game remains balanced even though you now need to solve four mysteries.

 

Another way to look at this is in terms of the reward a given encounter card gives you: A typical mystery says you need to grab clues from successful Research encounters and place them on the mystery. So if you're playing with 7 players, these broken encounters cards -- on a success -- are literally worth as much as succeeding on four Research encounters. They're 4x more valuable than other encounters. That makes no sense.

Edited by Justin Alexander

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Having to redo mystery cards would be fine if the mystery cards were in and of themselves particularly interesting, but they're not; it's mostly just reiterations of "put (#players) Clues on this card". It's fine as an overall progress marker, but it doesn't seem to add anything to the game except padding.

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I have to say, I don't really get the complaint against re-shuffling the mystery cards. I mean, yes, it sucks when it happens to you, and it makes the game much harder to win, but how is it different than a gate burst in AH?

 

Is it just because it sets you back 1/3 of the way instead of 1/6? I can see almost every argument made against the re-shuffling mechanic made against the gate bursts mechanic, but I don't remember the gate bursts being this controversial. Were they then they were first introduced?

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Gate bursts are also terrible. Also, in Arkham there are other ways to win besides getting seals, although that's the best and fastest method. If too many Gate bursts are ruining a sealing strategy, I can still try to win by close, or even prep for the ancient one and kick it's ass. EH doesn't really have a way to win beyond solve mysteries, so if it gets undone, it's not like you can switch to a different strategy: you just have to start all over again. Even if the Ancient One awakens, you still have to have those mysteries or you can't win.

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Also, sealing gates increases your odds exponentionally. If you have 5 seals up odds are you won't get a new portal or a monster surge, bursting helps negate that AND it doesn't drag out the game. It might force you to fight the ancient one, but the game won't take much longer.

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just my 2 cents… I win against every AO with  investigators game. And now i can win quite surely. At the begin that looks almost impossible for me…. So is possible because now is 50 50 chance.

 

I start now 1 investigator game to win all AO. About scaling; yes true when you play one or 2 investigator monster surge and gate spawn is same but mystery and Rumor cards condition is more easy…….. Very important also when investigator die choose next one wisely according current situation in the game. will have my report later again.

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Thank you for being honest and admitting a mistake. I admire that. On at least one of the cards that require a completed mystery card to be surrendered, you can avoid that if the party collectively spends x clues. I presume you saw that part. That adds even more to the preciousness of clues as a resource, and I like that. You can still spend them (frivolously or not), but beware...

 

That's better than the card we got. Our's was a failed observation check that caused us to lose a mystery. 

 

How you "prevent" it from happening doesn't fix the problem. The problem is the fact that losing progress in a game is the complete opposite of fun. The entire concept of losing a solved mystery is a terrible one. 

 

 

@FrozenSolid - Well you could have spent Clue Tokens to re-roll dice to avoid the fail - but other than that, yeah it IS a BRUTAL card to get.

 

Also, I agree with you with the lack of cards each Elder has. I hope they release a supplement pack for the Elders to increase the Mysteries, Research and Special Encounters - well not so much the Special encounters as those are drawn far less often. Maybe a couple more mysteries for variety, and definitely MORE research cards - our group has gone through those quite a bit.

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@FrozenSolid - Well you could have spent Clue Tokens to re-roll dice to avoid the fail - but other than that, yeah it IS a BRUTAL card to get.

 

 

Not when that player has no clue tokens and is trying to get their first one after having already spent them to finish a mystery. "Avoiding" it by requiring you to have an item that you may not have even had a chance to acquire yet is not a valid solution. Especially in our first game and you have no idea that "saving" a single clue to keep you from losing an hour of work is even something that'd be necessary.

 

It's a terrible mechanic. Stop making excuses for it.

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Ok, one I wasn't making an exscuse for anything - I was just throwing a "possible" way to prevent it.

 

Second, as you said it yourself - first game: the things you learn.

 

All in all though, I still don't think it is a crap mechanic - now I am making an exscuse. It is not like your drawing it and it happens, nothing you can do, just suck it up. You have that roll and the re-roll ability + anything else that can alter rolls (ie. Lucky Cigarrete Case, I believe?). Yes, it does suck to lose so much progress 9and extend play time) - but I will nod at it as an acceptable challenge. I like that this game so far, especially to players first playing it blindly, s in no way an easy win.

 

Sure there are a few quirks, and plenty of cards that make you wanna scream. But it has brought a fun and great time for my group - even as we got screwed by an undo mystery card the other night. (FYI we lost, lol)

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I'm starting to notice a pattern to games (at least to ones we win). The start is slow, the first mystery always takes the longest. After the first one though we're knocking them off every couple turns on average. (For example last game I played we completed the first mystery after the 8th mythos card. Over halfway through the deck! Then we completed the second in one turn and the third in two turns.)

 

So, I'm starting to think that maybe, maybe shuffling a solved mystery back in isn't so bad if it is only adding a couple turns and not adding a third of the game back in.

 

It is at least making me second guess tearing up the cards and throwing them away.

 

TL;DR If solving mysteries isn't a linear progression maybe it isn't so bad.

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@Fenyx - Yeah the first game we won went like that too, the second and third mystery was solved much faster. As Wolfgar says though, it probably has to due with clue progression and just having the right stuff and being in the right spots.

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"Take one solved mystery, and shuffle it back into the mystery deck"

 

Honestly, my group just ignores the reference guide clause where it says mystery cards shuffled back in or removed from game no longer count as solved. Having to redo the same mystery is punishment enough, IMO, let alone having it count against your solved mysteries. Also, since Azazoth has no Final Mystery, it's almost a guaranteed loss when playing against it.

 

If anyone has actually won the game after shuffling in a solved mystery, I'd really like to hear about it!

 

As for the second thing, I'm tempted to just throw in appropriate research/clue cards from other Old Ones for variety's sake until an expansion comes out.

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"Take one solved mystery, and shuffle it back into the mystery deck"

 

Honestly, my group just ignores the reference guide clause where it says mystery cards shuffled back in or removed from game no longer count as solved. Having to redo the same mystery is punishment enough, IMO, let alone having it count against your solved mysteries. Also, since Azazoth has no Final Mystery, it's almost a guaranteed loss when playing against it.

 

If anyone has actually won the game after shuffling in a solved mystery, I'd really like to hear about it!

 

As for the second thing, I'm tempted to just throw in appropriate research/clue cards from other Old Ones for variety's sake until an expansion comes out.

Actually I play 1 or 3 investigator solo si I dont really scare this card... just a spend a clue token and done. In 4 or up players game all players should be familiar with a game ir you will lose for sure anyway. So in the end of the day is depend on players experience.

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If anyone has actually won the game after shuffling in a solved mystery, I'd really like to hear about it!

A quick look at the stats that Tibs is keeping shows 4 wins out of the 11 times this occurred.  Of these, 2 were against Azathoth.  

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Tibes includes a factoid ("Having a mystery get shuffled back in increases difficulty by x%") once enough data comes in.   

 

As far as dealing with this: yes, just keep clues ready.

 

[edit for spelling]

Edited by ricedwlit

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I'm OK with the Mythos card "All for nothing" or something, which strips you from mystery if you do not pay a small price of inv/2 Clues, because clue are vital in this game and you always need to carry a spare. Still, chance of this mythos card popping up is slim(in my games, those few times it popped - got bribed by clues and nothing happened).

 

But research card of Azathoth is really bad design because of one reason - you will encounter it numerous times, as cities are most common spots at the game board. Still, when I'm playing solo, I respect this card and fulfill it as it is, but when it appears during a game with mah friends - undone mystery is a big time eater, and I respect their time, so I replace "Lose one solved mystery" effect with "Gain Amnesia and advance doom by 1", which is sort of thematically fits the description of the research card itself.

Edited by MyNeighbourTrololo

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I made the Clue mistake early on too, throwing spent Clues back into the bag. The other downside of that mistake is you don't get to have the wonderful Sea and Wilderness Encounters. All the really cool stuff seems to happen outdoors. I just love being at Sea, those are some of my favorite Encounters- though the only strategic reason to linger at Sea is to pick up a Clue.

 

I agree that they need more cards in the Research decks. Also in the general City/Sea/Wilderness Encounters deck. 

 

My main complaint is the game's way easier with 2 Investigators than with 3, cause most Mysteries only require one success to solve (1/2 number of players) Maybe the Lost Mystery card should only be used in 2 player games? 

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Yes, a section for "difficulty of reshuffled Mystery" is something I plan to include. I'm waiting for input about other "events" to put as checkboxes, including expansion effects.

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Thank you for being honest and admitting a mistake. I admire that. On at least one of the cards that require a completed mystery card to be surrendered, you can avoid that if the party collectively spends x clues. I presume you saw that part. That adds even more to the preciousness of clues as a resource, and I like that. You can still spend them (frivolously or not), but beware...

 

That's better than the card we got. Our's was a failed observation check that caused us to lose a mystery. 

 

How you "prevent" it from happening doesn't fix the problem. The problem is the fact that losing progress in a game is the complete opposite of fun. The entire concept of losing a solved mystery is a terrible one.

 

 

Agreed in full with the bolded text.

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I don't know if anyone else corrected the OP on this, but when they said "Most of Azathoth's mysteries involve getting a number of clue tokens equal to the number of players.", that's actually wrong, it's *half* the number of players, so maybe they were making it too hard for themselves.  When I played earlier I nailed two of the mysteries in about three turns.  If I'd lost one at that point, I really wouldn't have been that bothered.

 

Actually we didn't play that wrong. 

 

Occult Research: "At the end of the Mythos Phase, if there are clues on this card equal to the number of players, solve this mystery"

 

The True Name: "place a number of Eldritch tokens equal to half the number of players ... spend 2 clues to place that Eldritch token on this card."

 

Seed of the Daemon Sultan: "spend 2 clues to place 1 Eldritch token on this card ... if there are Eldritch tokens on this card equal to half the number of players solve this mystery"

 

Only one mystery is clues equal to the number of players, and that one is timed to which omen is on the omen track. All of the others require 2 times half the number of players rounded up. In a 5 player game which we were playing, this meant we needed 6 clues for every mystery we wanted to accomplish, except for the last Omen of Devastation.

 

Um, wouldn't 2 times half the number of players rounded up just equal the number of players?  Why round it up?  When would you ever have to?  Do they do that just to make some mysteries harder (unlike you I have not encountered all of the mysteries yet.)  i.e. If you have 3 players then that divided by two rounded up and multiplied by 2 would be four instead of just the 3 people actually playing.  Is that how it works?  It just makes mysteries a little tougher?

 

As for my own experience, yes I've had similar things happen before, some of it that seems unfair.  I play Lovecraft games becuase of that, though.  I know what I'm getting into and it's just my opinion (by the way, no offense, but I don't think "objective" means what you think it means....) but at least now when I "get into it" it feels reasonably connected and coherent. AH felt truly random. To give my opinion perspective Eldritch Horror is like a choose your own adventure while AH is like MadLibs and I like to read and FEEL like my character has some agency more than I like to just pick random words out of a hat. 

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