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The9ofSpades

Infection Tokens

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Hi everyone,

Looking for your opinions on the new Infection class for the OL that comes with The Trollfens expansion. I was playing a campaign with some friends over the weekend and the question came up as to whether or not the Infection tokens are discarded when a hero gets knocked out. As the OL naturally I wanted them to stay on.

My argument is that no where in the rules does it say that Infection tokens are conditions, the only thing that gets removed when a hero is knocked out are condition tokens. I believe they would work similarity to the hero's Champion Class Valor tokens, which the FAQ says stay on when a hero is knocked out.

Can any of you suggest as to why or why not these would get removed?

Cheers

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They stay on the hero sheet, and are not counted as conditions.

We've been playing this way, and as a hero whose OL loves the Infector deck, I don't feel that it's unbalanced; not in the way Warlord is, anyway.

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They stay on the hero sheet, and are not counted as conditions.

We've been playing this way, and as a hero whose OL loves the Infector deck, I don't feel that it's unbalanced; not in the way Warlord is, anyway.

 

Yeah I believe this is correct.

 

On a similar note, if a hero with the prophet token is knocked out, can that be discarded before he or she is revived in order to gain 1 life and then get him or herself up?

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The9ofSpades, on 19 Nov 2013 - 2:27 PM, said:

Hi everyone,

Looking for your opinions on the new Infection class for the OL that comes with The Trollfens expansion. I was playing a campaign with some friends over the weekend and the question came up as to whether or not the Infection tokens are discarded when a hero gets knocked out. As the OL naturally I wanted them to stay on.

They are definitely not a Condition. For one thing, they aren't named as a condition in the rules (I know, semantics.) Also, if they were a Condition then you could only ever have one such token at a time, because Conditions don't stack. Seems to me there are some abilities that assume more than one token is possible.

As to whether or not they get discarded when a hero is KO'd... I suppose someone could argue it's vague, but I'm inclined to treat them the same as valour (not removed.)

Radish, on 19 Nov 2013 - 3:40 PM, said:

On a similar note, if a hero with the prophet token is knocked out, can that be discarded before he or she is revived in order to gain 1 life and then get him or herself up?

No. To discard the insight token, the hero is using one of the prophet's hero abilities, albiet an ability that can be used by any hero who has the token. KO'd heroes cannot use ANY skills or abilities.

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Since we are talking tokens:

 

I am then to guess that hexer tokens, on the same note, are not conditions and thus "Iron Skin" is useless in the face of them.

 

Iron Skin- This monster is not affected by conditions.

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Since we are talking tokens:

 

I am then to guess that hexer tokens, on the same note, are not conditions and thus "Iron Skin" is useless in the face of them.

 

Iron Skin- This monster is not affected by conditions.

I would say definitely not. The hex tokens don't directly have an effect unless used with a skill card. Conditions have their own effect regardless of the skills possessed by any one hero.

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They are definitely not a Condition. For one thing, they aren't named as a condition in the rules (I know, semantics.) Also, if they were a Condition then you could only ever have one such token at a time, because Conditions don't stack. Seems to me there are some abilities that assume more than one token is possible.

As to whether or not they get discarded when a hero is KO'd... I suppose someone could argue it's vague, but I'm inclined to treat them the same as valour (not removed.)

No. To discard the insight token, the hero is using one of the prophet's hero abilities, albiet an ability that can be used by any hero who has the token. KO'd heroes cannot use ANY skills or abilities.

Well, the prophet does have a specific skill that will invalidate what you wrote.

The skill is Lifeline and it says it can be exhausted to discard the toke from a hero that would otherwise be downed.

This will make that hero recover 1hp, no down, no OL card draw.

Edited by MadBat

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No. To discard the insight token, the hero is using one of the prophet's hero abilities, albiet an ability that can be used by any hero who has the token. KO'd heroes cannot use ANY skills or abilities.

Well, the prophet does have a specific skill that will invalidate what you wrote.

The skill is Lifeline and it says it can be exhausted to discard the toke from a hero that would otherwise be downed.

This will make that hero recover 1hp, no down, no OL card draw.

 

I think we're talking about two different things.

I'm talking about a hero who is already KO'd but happens to have the insight token on him.  The Prophet's base skill (Soothing Insight) allows any hero who has the insight token to discard it during their own turn to heal.  This is an ability which is used by the hero who wants to heal, even though it's printed on one of the Prophet's skill cards. The hero in question is KO'd and therefore cannot use any abilities.  So he cannot discard the insight token and heal himself. That's the question Radish asked, to which I was responding.

You're talking about a situation where the hero is NOT KO'd yet, but is about to become KO'd. Lifeline is used in response to this situation to prevent the hero from ever becoming KO'd. Yes, this would be allowed because the Prophet himself (the hero who is using the ability) is not KO'd.  I would even argue that the Prophet could use this skill on himself if he had the insight token himself, but the key point to remember in that case is that the Prophet is not KO'd yet.  Lifeline triggers when the hero would become defeated.  As in, he's not actually defeated, because Lifeline saves him.

 

If the Prophet was already KO'd, he would NOT be able to use Lifeline to save himself or anyone else, because he can't use abilities while he is KO'd.

Nothing I said is invalid, you're comparing apples to oranges.

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If Prophet and hero A(with insight token) were under a multi-attack and both defeated during overlord's turn 

1.Can overlord decide Prophet resolve firstly  to prevent Lifeline   ?

2.If hero A is resolved firstly and Lifeline is used, can Prophet move insight token to himself with All-seeing?

 

 

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, edcy said:

If Prophet and hero A(with insight token) were under a multi-attack and both defeated during overlord's turn 

1.Can overlord decide Prophet resolve firstly  to prevent Lifeline   ?

2.If hero A is resolved firstly and Lifeline is used, can Prophet move insight token to himself with All-seeing?

1) No. Both heroes are defeated simultaneously, and Lifeline's activation window is after a hero would be defeated. Since there is no timing conflict, the Overlord has no way to prevent it.

2) Yes, the Prophet can exhaust Lifeline to heal one of the defeated heroes with the insight token, and then use All-Seeing to move it to the other defeated hero to save them as well. This is because Lifeline creates the special timing window of "would be defeated", similar to other cards such as Death Siphon.

This of course requires the Prophet have the available stamina for both of these moves.

Answers revised. See later posts in this thread after discussion.

Edited by Charmy
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Posted (edited)

For 1, I disagree. Damage is dealt to each affected figure in sequence at the active player's choosing when there is a conflicting trigger. For example, it has been confirmed that the OL can choose to deal damage to the reanimate FIRST if the reanimate and necromancer are both affected by an attack (to prevent the necromancer from protecting himself with dark pact). I'm pretty sure the OL could dewl damage to the prophet first. If the prophet gets defeated, he couldn't use lifeline.

For 2, he could move the insight token to another hero using all- seeing after it's discarded via lifeline. However, lifeline could not be used again that attack (or until it is refreshed) because the card is exhausted.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Zaltyre said:

For 1, I disagree. Damage is dealt to each affected figure in sequence at the active player's choosing when there is a conflicting trigger. For example, it has been confirmed that the OL can choose to deal damage to the reanimate FIRST if the reanimate and necromancer are both affected by an attack (to prevent the necromancer from protecting himself with dark pact). I'm pretty sure the OL could dewl damage to the prophet first. If the prophet gets defeated, he couldn't use lifeline.

I was aware the active player can choose resolution order when there is a timing conflict between player triggers. However, I was not aware of the ruling about the Necromancer and the Reanimate.  It didn't seem to me that there is a timing conflict because no other player other than the prophet is trying to use an effect 'when a hero was defeated'.

If there is no concept of events happening simultaneously in the game at all, - which that ruling suggests - then Zaltyre is right. That makes it sound like every effect in the game with the same timing is always resolved in a sequential order whether there are interacting triggers or not, and the active player has absolute control over this ordering to suit them.

Or it might just be another case of it not being possible to derive a universal rule from a specific instance.

2 hours ago, Zaltyre said:

For 2, he could move the insight token to another hero using all- seeing after it's discarded via lifeline. However, lifeline could not be used again that attack (or until it is refreshed) because the card is exhausted.

I wasn't suggesting the Prophet was using Lifeline twice. My ruling here is based on a previous ruling about Death Siphon.

When Death Siphon is used, the defeat of the hero is prevented if any healing occurs during the bonus attack - even if the attack fails to defeat the monster. (See CRRG for source) This is because Death Siphon's attack occurs 'before you are knocked out', but after damage has already been dealt. Any healing that occurs during this time prevents defeat.

I believe that is the same scenario here. The Lifeline activates for one of the heroes when they 'would be defeated', heals them, and is discarded. Then All-Seeing moves it to the other hero, who has also already received damage and is in the state of 'would be defeated', and heals them.

See the following quote from the CRRG from 'Step 5' of combat steps:
The attack is resolved after damage has been dealt to all
affected figures and tokens and, if applicable, figures and
tokens have been defeated. Abilities that may be used
before a figure or token is defeated, trigger in this step of
the attack.
(emphasis mine)

Reading it again though, I can see how this could be a little subjective. Do you have to resolve damage and defeat triggers for each figure that was affected in a sequence, or do you resolve the damage for each affected figure, and then the 'before a figure is defeated' triggers for each affected figure.

Edited by Charmy

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Posted (edited)

Charmy, I think we are in agreement about the use of Lifeline during "would be defeated". Where we seem to be disagreeing is the timing of the defeat for the two heroes. Let me try to make my position clearer. For reference, here is my Q/A regarding Dark Pact:


Rules Question:
When resolving "Blast" or "Fire Breath," is there an order choice in terms of resolving damage dealing/suffering? Specifically, say a Necromancer and Reanimate are both affected by the same attack on the OL's turn. Can the Overlord choose to "resolve damage" against the Reanimate first to prevent the use of "Dark Pact," or is the damage applied simultaneously, allowing the Necromancer to use the skill? Thanks!

Answer:
In a timing conflict, the active player decides the order in which things resolve. Though technically all damage is dealt simultaneously, if there is an interfering trigger, such as the Necromancer looking to trigger Dark Pact, the overlord as the active player would then decide the order in which damage was resolved. In this case, to the Reanimate first to prevent the use of Dark Pact.

Thanks for playing!
Kara Centell-Dunk
Creative Content Developer

Based on that, my understanding is that in the presence of an interfering trigger (like Dark Pact, Lifeline, or All-seeing) the damage is resolved in an order chosen by the active player, not simultaneously.  For simplicity, let's imagine Hero A (with the insight token) and Hero B (the prophet), each with 1 health remaining. They are attacked, and will each receive enough damage to KO them. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting that it would happen this way:

Hero A and Hero B are dealt 2 damage. They will both be defeated. 

Hero B exhausts "Lifeline" to protect Hero A and cause him to recover 1. He then uses "All-Seeing" to gain the insight token himself and recover 1 at the same time, saving him from his imminent defeat.

I believe that timing is not correct. I think it should be:

Hero A and B are dealt 2 damage. The OL chooses to resolve that damage against Hero B first.

Hero B suffers damage and is KO. Now, the OL moves on to dealing damage to Hero A. Since Hero B is KO, he can't exhaust Lifeline. Hero A suffers damage and is defeated.

OR, alternately:

Hero A and B are dealt 2 damage. The OL chooses to resolve that damage against Hero A first.

Hero A suffers damage, and would be defeated, but Hero B exhausts Lifeline, saving him. Hero B then uses All-seeing to give himself the insight token and recover 1.

The OL moves on to dealing damage to Hero B (now with 2 health remaining). He suffers 2 wound, and is defeated anyway. He cannot use Lifeline since it is already exhausted.

Edited by Zaltyre
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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Zaltyre said:

Charmy, I think we are in agreement about the use of Lifeline during "would be defeated". Where we seem to be disagreeing is the timing of the defeat for the two heroes.

Yeah, I think that is where the disagreement arose.

Do you:

A) resolve both the damage and 'would be defeated' triggers for each affected target in sequence

or


B) resolve the damage for each figure in sequence and then the 'would be defeated' triggers for each affected target in sequence

Edited by Charmy

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Posted (edited)

As far as I am aware, the defeat is a direct result of the damage- it occurs (if it's going to happen) immediately upon receiving the damage, not somehow held until after the attack resolves. So I think that's "A". As each affected figure takes enough damage to be defeated, it's defeated. 

 

So, "A takes 3 damage and he's dead. B takes 3 damage and he's dead. C takes 3 damage and he's dead." Not, "A takes 3 damage, then B takes 3 damage, then C takes 3 damage. Now, A, B, and C die."

Edited by Zaltyre

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Posted (edited)

26 minutes ago, Zaltyre said:

As far as I am aware, the defeat is a direct result of the damage- it occurs (if it's going to happen) immediately upon receiving the damage, not somehow held until after the attack resolves. So I think that's "A". As each affected figure takes enough damage to be defeated, it's defeated.

I will err to you on this matter then and update my understanding accordingly. :)

So then the revised answers to edcy's original questions are:

a) Overlord can choose to resolve the damage and defeat of the Prophet first, thus preventing Lifeline's use on the hero with the Insight token

and

b) If a hero is damaged and then saved with Lifeline, and then the token is moved to the new target with All-Seeing, then the recipient will gain hearts. However, this figure is then damaged from the attack after this. If the hero's damage exceeds its health regardless of the extra healing, then they're defeated too.

Edited by Charmy
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