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Sebastian Yorke

Hotshot Long-Las

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Can a long-las be rebuilt/adapted in a Lucius-hotshot pattern?

How would the new stats look like?

 

Range increased even further, AP of a Hellgun?

 

Also, how many successes through Trade-Armourer are necessary?
I believe it would including coating some components into heat resistant alloys, adapting the ammo supplier to use on of those backpacks, custom-building an entire new barrel using a mix of both layouts.

 

I would be more mobile/easy to use than a lascannon, but is it still worth it?

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Seems more reasonable to turn a hellgun into a long-hellgun than to up the power on a regular long-las. If you're the type who allows that sort of tinkering, it probably shouldn't be too hard, considering that however you slice it, a solo-bolter with organgrinder rounds is a much better substitute for a lascannon.

Utherix likes this

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If you mean Hotshot packs, a long-las can already use those so no modification would be required. As for what would be required to "upgrade" a gun, that's heresy by Imperium standards, so normally Trade (Armourer) wouldn't apply, since that's for building from STCs that are well-known and discovered. Such a thing would be unthinkable to any good, clean Imperial citizen.

 

Screw that though, you're a Rogue Trader and you recruit Hereteks by the dozens - good thing too since they kill themselves off in blasphemous experiments at about that rate. First have them make a Trade Test to build a Long-Las, and then a second one to build the Hellgun (still for the same weapon) to prove that they understand the principles of both. Then combine the two into one ridiculous difficulty (which could put it below -60), and for every Shift of success they scored on their Trade tests previously, lower the difficulty by 5. As long as the cumulative modifier for the final Trade ends up above -60, they can make one last test to forge the weapons together.

 

As for what it should be, "Accurate" and "Semi/Full-Auto" never made a lot of sense to me. I would just allow your players to use the damage of a Hellgun and leave the remainder of the weapon stats as a longlas. Then bring the Mechanicus around eager to know where they found the STC for this marvelous new weapon he's been producing.

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I'm a bit curious why you'd even want to bother with it. Las weapons are so **** I can't imagine why you'd willingly choose to use them, even Hell weapons are essentially crippled by the toughness bonuses of most RT characters and NPCs despite having really good penetration. Buy a bolter instead and benefit from the tearing rule, tearing is badass and non-archeotech bolters pretty easy to get ahold of.

 

I can see how Las weapons would be viable in Dark Heresy but even for red shirts in RT why wouldn't you just buy them autoguns with manstopper rounds instead? They do the same damage have enough pen to negate mook armor and they're full auto so they do more damage per turn and can supress. Why would you want the long las when the slug throwing Sniper Rifle in the Into the Storm armory is easily available to anyone with even a mediocre profit factor and has more built in features?

 

I had one of my players (who was new) ask me the other day if he could go to the ship's armory and get a las pistol, obviously getting weapons doesn't work that way per the rules but I thought about it for a moment and I told him that for all I cared he could have ten of the things. So yeah as of Sunday new house rule in my game you can have as many lasguns as you want because they suck.

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I'm a bit curious why you'd even want to bother with it. Las weapons are so **** I can't imagine why you'd willingly choose to use them, even Hell weapons are essentially crippled by the toughness bonuses of most RT characters and NPCs despite having really good penetration. Buy a bolter instead and benefit from the tearing rule, tearing is badass and non-archeotech bolters pretty easy to get ahold of.

 

I can see how Las weapons would be viable in Dark Heresy but even for red shirts in RT why wouldn't you just buy them autoguns with manstopper rounds instead? They do the same damage have enough pen to negate mook armor and they're full auto so they do more damage per turn and can supress. Why would you want the long las when the slug throwing Sniper Rifle in the Into the Storm armory is easily available to anyone with even a mediocre profit factor and has more built in features?

 

I had one of my players (who was new) ask me the other day if he could go to the ship's armory and get a las pistol, obviously getting weapons doesn't work that way per the rules but I thought about it for a moment and I told him that for all I cared he could have ten of the things. So yeah as of Sunday new house rule in my game you can have as many lasguns as you want because they suck.

 

I think it's a matter of how you handle logistics and up-keep tests.

Las weapon have virtually unlimited ammo supply, so lasguns are perfect weapon for masses of infantry on prolonged missions. They can also come in handy if there's a lot of dungeon crawling and/or survival style adventures.

Other than those and I completly agree (crunch-wise at least).

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I'm a bit curious why you'd even want to bother with it. Las weapons are so **** I can't imagine why you'd willingly choose to use them, even Hell weapons are essentially crippled by the toughness bonuses of most RT characters and NPCs despite having really good penetration. Buy a bolter instead and benefit from the tearing rule, tearing is badass and non-archeotech bolters pretty easy to get ahold of.

 

I can see how Las weapons would be viable in Dark Heresy but even for red shirts in RT why wouldn't you just buy them autoguns with manstopper rounds instead? They do the same damage have enough pen to negate mook armor and they're full auto so they do more damage per turn and can supress. Why would you want the long las when the slug throwing Sniper Rifle in the Into the Storm armory is easily available to anyone with even a mediocre profit factor and has more built in features?

 

I had one of my players (who was new) ask me the other day if he could go to the ship's armory and get a las pistol, obviously getting weapons doesn't work that way per the rules but I thought about it for a moment and I told him that for all I cared he could have ten of the things. So yeah as of Sunday new house rule in my game you can have as many lasguns as you want because they suck.

Before posting this, did you actually read the hotshot charge pack (which effectively grants tearing, even if the writer was too stupid to refer to that rule)? Or notice how the topic refers to the longlas? And then read accurate?

In my experice, a longlas with hot shot charge packs is closer to a single shot auto cannon that to a pityfull little bolter.

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It's been awhile since I read the hotshot special ammo rule but if I recall it causes the weapon to fire a single much more powerful shot afterwhich it has to be reloaded, but I definately use the accurate rule enough to know all the nuances of how it works. If you want a weapon with both the tearing and accurate rules buy the solo bolter because that doesn't have to be reloaded after every shot.

Nameless2all likes this

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My AM wants to build a layout that can be mass produced and easily recharged just like las weapons.

It's not just about him.

 

If your Explorator thinks it's not just about him then clearly we have had different experiences with Explorators.

 

I agree with your point though that the real advantages of flashlights las-weapons over bolters is that las ammo is so ubiquitous that outfitting an army with them make sense because of how easy it would be to keep them loaded in ammunition. They also have a much higher clip rate - my campaign's beloved Merovech Assault Lasguns have a clip of 120 and a full-auto rate of 5, meaning someone wielding one can suppress an area for up to 24 rounds without pause.

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Well if you incorporate the variable setting rule from BC/OW lasweapons become a lot more impressive.

 

If I had either of those sourcebooks I imagine I would, because as it stands it becomes almost silly how worthless the things are. I know that the Imperial Guard like the WW2 armies it's proimarily based upon inflicts about 70% of it's kills with artillery, bombings and tanks and unlike those armies it has to constantly fight terrifying space monsters but at the same time the lasgun as it's lsted in the RT rules sucks so much that even a super lucky shot could never kill an Ork or an Eldar anyway.

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Well if you incorporate the variable setting rule from BC/OW lasweapons become a lot more impressive.

 

If I had either of those sourcebooks I imagine I would, because as it stands it becomes almost silly how worthless the things are. I know that the Imperial Guard like the WW2 armies it's proimarily based upon inflicts about 70% of it's kills with artillery, bombings and tanks and unlike those armies it has to constantly fight terrifying space monsters but at the same time the lasgun as it's lsted in the RT rules sucks so much that even a super lucky shot could never kill an Ork or an Eldar anyway.

 

 

A single shot, no, that would be unlikely; 100 shots, though, a thousand, ten thousand?

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May I recommend that you take a look at the Horde rules from BC? They are pretty brilliant in their simplicity, I think, although they interact somewhat strangely with certain attacks.

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A single shot, no, that would be unlikely; 100 shots, though, a thousand, ten thousand?

 

 

Per the RT combat rules is seems like not even then, since every hit is counted individually against armor and toughness. Now realisitcally the armor would melt or something while getting shot five hundred hundred times in two minutes but there aren't any rules for that written in the RT book. So apparently there are in some of the other books but I don't have those.

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A single shot, no, that would be unlikely; 100 shots, though, a thousand, ten thousand?

 

 

Per the RT combat rules is seems like not even then, since every hit is counted individually against armor and toughness. Now realisitcally the armor would melt or something while getting shot five hundred hundred times in two minutes but there aren't any rules for that written in the RT book. So apparently there are in some of the other books but I don't have those.

 

RT lacks any rules at all at that scale, and the individual weapon profiles obviously don't scale that well. Fluff influencing statlines and those statlines then not performing admirably is.. sometimes a problem. No way around it that I can think of, but.. yeah.

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RT lacks any rules at all at that scale, and the individual weapon profiles obviously don't scale that well. Fluff influencing statlines and those statlines then not performing admirably is.. sometimes a problem. No way around it that I can think of, but.. yeah.

Hissssss... Horde rules.

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RT lacks any rules at all at that scale, and the individual weapon profiles obviously don't scale that well. Fluff influencing statlines and those statlines then not performing admirably is.. sometimes a problem. No way around it that I can think of, but.. yeah.

Hissssss... Horde rules.

 

I'm actually not a huge fan of the Horde Rules in BC, but since I can't suggest anything better and that it's better than nothing - yeah, Horde Rules!

Rogue Trader really should have them itself, though. Sometimes, FFG seems a bit inconsistent. On one hand, it seems like they vehemently oppose the creation of a unified ruleset of any kind, but on the other hand, what they publish seems to be with the base assumption that players will cross-pollinate.

Rogue Trader openly deals with things on a Macro-level, yet Horde Rules have never been published for Rogue Trader (unless I'm just straight-up lying right now and have completely forgotten about it due to running on BC Horde Rules anyway). Likewise, both Deathwatch and Black Crusade have clear rules for the creation of Minions and Companions as attachments to Player Characters, yet the Comrades in Only War are kept incredibly vague and undefined.

Sometimes, things like this are just.. odd.

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Minions and Comrades serve different functions.

 

Comrades are a mechanism to have a 10-man squad while a) having half the number of players and b) still making the PCs completely central.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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Per terms of fluff I kind of feel like the effectiveness of ballistic vs las wepons should be reversed either by base damage values or just finding some special ammo middle ground between none and burns through the whole pack in one shot. Honestly that's something that gets to me, there are multiple alternate ammo types for godamn plasma guns (per GWs material irreplaceable pieces of archeotech) but hardly any options for the most ubiquitos piece of imperial weapons tech in existance.

 

I know OW has Regiment traits and I know now it apparently has some special rule regarding making las weapons not suck by cranking up the juice, but if the former was the case and the latter wasn't and with no better understanding of the rules that I currently have....

 

If I made my own Guard regiment I thinkl the first thing I'd do is chuck all the lasguns in favor of slug throwers with some variation of AP (manstopper) rounds.

Edited by Amazing Larry

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I don't think alternate ammunition for Las-weapons would be the way to go. It would be very odd to have many different kinds of ammunition for what should be one-size-fits-all ubiquitously available generalized standard munitions. It is well-known that lasguns are outperformed by many other weapons; lasguns are used as the Kalashnikovs (R.I.P. Q_Q) of the 41st millennium.

 

Lasweapons, however, could potentially have a wide range of different patterns and types, and I think Lasweapons should have access to many different and diverse weapon upgrades.

And with that logic in mind, Hotshot Laspacks doesn't make sense and never made sense. "Hotshot Charger" makes a lot more sense, and could be an available mod/upgrade for Lasweapons - "Hellguns" being those lasguns that comes with a pre-assembled and integrated Hotshot Charger.

The "Variable Setting" should also be a Special Quality available to specific-pattern lasweapons, but also available as a general lasweapon mod/upgrade, perhaps mutually exclusive (as an upgrade) to the Hotshot Charger.

In addition to that, lasweapons could have focusing lenses, dispersal attachments, etc, etc, etc. Perhaps, to keep up with ammunition and genuinely separate the weapons, some of these mods could be easily affixed, allowing you to rearrange your output on-the-fly.

Affixing a Lasweapon Focus Lense that doubles range but forces any and all penetration to zero (no matter the weapon and attached mods), halves the damage bonus (so 1d10+4 becomes 1d10+2) and gives Accurate. Half-Range. Incompatible with Variable Setting (or whatever such a Special Quality would be called; the overcharge function simply wouldn't work without damaging the lens).

Attaching a Wide-Beam Dispersal Shocker completely disperses the laser, resulting in a brief but strong flash of light; completely removes damage, reduces range to 1/3, but let's it act as a directed Flash Grenade, extending in a 30-degree arc - the damage modifier of the Lasweapon adds to the difficulty in resisting the effects (So a 1d10+1 Laspistol would make the opponent (or ally...) take -10 to the test. 1d10+5 would mean -50 to the test, etc). Might cause permanent retinal damage or minor burns at very close ranges (such as Point-Blank) at the GM:s discretion.

Mounting (or unmounting) a "Light-Puncher" Flakburner Lens takes 1 round and a Routine (+20) Tech-Use Test or a Trivial Trade (Technomat or Armourer) Test, and transfers Bonus Damage to Penetration at a 1:1 rate (1d10+1 Pen 1 becomes 1d10 Pen 2), but removes Reliable (or, if it did not have Reliable, makes the weapon Unreliable), Accurate (if it had it), and reduces effective range by 1/2. Adds Recharge (2) Incompatible with Charge Pack Modifications and Variable Settings set to overcharge.

(Recharge (2) means that it can fire twice before needing one full round to recharge - can be forced to recharge before firing twice, but takes a Half-Action or Reaction).

Just some ideas. Making Lasweapons highly modular could make up for the many different kinds of ammunitions they don't get, and simply make the different Types of weapons matter more, without necessarily "overpowering" lasweapons in regards to how much they are actually supposed to suck in the setting.

These are just brainstormed - they haven't actually been playtested at all. Mileage may vary and without doing crunch on the various lasweapons, it's impossible to tell if this would be worthwile or unbalancing. Just throwing it out there.
 

 

Minions and Comrades serve different functions.
 
Comrades are a mechanism to have a 10-man squad while a) having half the number of players and b) still making the PCs completely central.

I know what they're for. I'm saying I don't like that mechanic and how it's depicted (or how it lacks being depicted). Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you don't understand it - in my experience, to me, it's usually the opposite.

Also, Comrades are far more than what you describe. In both cases, Companions/Minions vs. Comrades, they are effectively extensions of the player characters, following their orders. And in Only War, Comrades even have a wide range of talents associated with them. Yet there's a complete absence of rules regarding their actual nature or guidelines to generate their statlines.

"I tell my Comrade to shoot at that ork over there."

"Alright. What's his BS?"

"I.. have no clue? Don't you have stats for these things?"

"Lolno."


Fgdsfgnfsdhfsjd!

Even their creation is incredibly shallow. I realize that this is due to the comrades never being supposed to outshine their 'masters', but it all ends up being very vague. What can an Operator's Comrade do? Can he assist the Operator in Operate tests? Can he assist in Tech-Use? I don't know, do you?

Instead, I think that the "Minion" rules should be used in Only War, with the player characters (when applicable) simply gaining a 'Minion', created with pre-defined restrictions aside from the regular "Minion" creation rules, including "No special traits, humans with minimum characteristics of 20 to 25 and a maximum of 30 to 35, only Tier 1 Talents, and only these Skills based on the player characters Specialization" (so an Operator Comrade might get a choice of Operate skills, Tech-Use, etc, while a Sergeant's Comrade is forced to have Tech-Use and may choose to have a single Tactics skill or Scholastic Lore (Tactica Imperialis).

Or at least something along those lines.

Edited by Fgdsfg
Sebastian Yorke likes this

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Too much granularity and effort spent on something that will die in 5 rounds.

 

You never replace your Comrades or give the players opportunity to use those Comrade Talents?

Comrades aren't chaff - if they were intended to die 5 rounds into a session, they wouldn't be such a big part of the Specialization-specific Talents and have so many auxiliary rules associated with them.

Comrades are there to be used. They serve both a mechanical and immersive function. The idea that "they're going to die anyway and thus they don't need stats" is ridiculous! Every single mook in the game "will die in 5 rounds", yet we give them all stats! Why should Comrades that have specific talents interacting with them be any different?

Tenebrae and Utherix like this

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I think the problem with lasguns is mostly that they got statted in DH where everything had less armor and less toughness, personally I think they should be better than a rinky dink autogun but they aren't because the autogun can get special ammo. While maybe not right for DH I think more RT appropriate lasgun profiles would give the lasgun 1d10+4 damage and the hellgun 1d10+8 but take away all of it's Pen. That would put the weapons firmly in a middle ground between slug throwers and bolters in terms of effectiveness. Yes it would give the hellgun more potential max damage than a bolter but because the bolter has tearing and Pen4 the reality is that the bolter would always do more damage in practice.

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