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Warboss Krag

Fliers

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Don't know if this has been asked before, but I'll ask it anyway: Are there any books on the way to deal with the Imperial Guard fliers, such as the Valkyrie and even the Land Speeder (still have my old lead model!)

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I'm not sure. The Rogue Trader books might have something, but I don't know too many of them.
In Only War there is no word so far, despite Operate(Aeronautica) existing.

What you could do is take the Ork Bommas from Final Testament and try to work something out from there...

No Surrender will take place in space, and thus might include something useful, but it's not out yet.

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The Imperial Guard has no fliers, those belong to the Imperial Navy. Closest you'll find though is in...can't remember if it was Battlefleet Koronus or Into The Storm from Rogue Trader.

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Yeah, despite the IG Codex having nice access to the Valkyrie and Vendetta, these vehicles are actually piloted and maintained by the Imperial Navy, in an effort to keep the military from growing too powerful again. The Navy has ships, fliers, and whatnot, while the Guard have soldiers, tanks, and such, and the two must work together. Of course, they don't always, and I presume some wars have dragged on as they have because of such internal conflicts.

 

It would still be nice for the Valkyrie to have stats, even if it was just so the GM can fly in, it manned by Navy crew, lay waste to an area, deposit the troops, and take back off, but I will honestly say that the various games of FFG 40K have collectively done an intentional job, it seems, of not statting this one vehicle. If you search the various boards, though, I assume they will have something homebrew. Otherwise, if BC has a variant of the Thunderhawk, for SM and CSM deployments, a slight retweak should suffice. Or, you could use a slightly inferior armor Rhino, with Valk's guns, and make it a flyer.

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Don't know if this has been asked before, but I'll ask it anyway: Are there any books on the way to deal with the Imperial Guard fliers, such as the Valkyrie and even the Land Speeder (still have my old lead model!)

 

Let's see.

Rogue Trader is your Go-To source on fliers.

Into the Storm has several (Guncutter, Aquila, Arvus, Fury Interceptor and Halo Barge). It alsohas a landspeed (p. 184)

Battlefleet Koronus has Shark Assault Boats and Starhawk Bombers, but that's probably a bit much.

There is a valkyrie (Sky Talon pattern IIRC) in on of the RT scenarios, Citadel of Skulls.

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I question the insistence that the Navy operates the Guard fliers. I forget where that piece of Brit stupidity is mentioned, but it's operationally retarded. Besides, it makes part of the Navy wildly subordinate to the Army, and that's an anathema to the space-squids (as well as being utterly and totally reliant on the Guard for supply and maintenance in addition).

Anyway, FFG should have included the fliers in the main book, or come out with stats PDQ. Maybe someone there should get a **** clue that even the tards at GW have figured: Surface warfare is distinctly asymmetrical, and has been since the invention of paratroops. VTOL craft make it even more so, and the Guard adheres to this as well, when it can. (And for those who don't know, asymmetrical refers to the third dimension in land warfare, not to mismatched force compositions or guerilla tactics.)

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Still the WH40k background dictates that the Imperial Navy has the sole right to use any aircraft for military prupose (space marines excluded but strictly limited)

main reason for this is that every military organization is dependend upon another so a revolt like the Horus Heresy is less likly, i agree that its an operationen pain in the a** but it has its reason and considering that the only thing the Administratum really cares about is to prevent heresy its logical, the have men and gear to spare and waste for this

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I question the insistence that the Navy operates the Guard fliers. I forget where that piece of Brit stupidity is mentioned, but it's operationally retarded.

 

It's supposed to be operationally retarded. It's done to make the military weaker, on purpose.

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I question the insistence that the Navy operates the Guard fliers. I forget where that piece of Brit stupidity is mentioned, but it's operationally retarded. Besides, it makes part of the Navy wildly subordinate to the Army, and that's an anathema to the space-squids (as well as being utterly and totally reliant on the Guard for supply and maintenance in addition).

 

[...]

Ah, I see where the disconnect lies. You think that the Navy operate Guard fliers.

They don't. The Navy operate Navy fliers. There is no such thing as 'Guard fliers'.

 

Them being totally and utterly reliant on eachother to operate effectively is the entire point. That's why they were split up to begin with.

Edited by Fgdsfg

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Also aren't land speeders built to be operated by Space marines? I doubt the guard would ever be able to get their hands on one and if they did I`m not sure they would be able to operate it.

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Also aren't land speeders built to be operated by Space marines? I doubt the guard would ever be able to get their hands on one and if they did I`m not sure they would be able to operate it.

They are exceedingly rare in the Guard, but they do exist, and were once widely used.

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Guys, guys, guys....

 

You all have to remember that GW has never, ever, in its entire history ever invented anything themselves. Everything is basically stolen from RL, history or other settings/books/wherever, then dipped in GW sauce and turned up to 11.

 

So just check out the organisational history of RL armies and their quest to control their own aircraft & choppers. Just as an example, the USAF and the US Army have fought pitched battles on this issue which the USAF lost, as has the Luftwaffe with the Heer and the Kriegsmarine which the Luftwaffe won. Same thing happened with the RAF, the RN and the RA.

They obviously weren't all concerned about heresy and rebellions but budgets and prestige work just as well. The bottom line is that in some militaries, the army controls its own aviation and in some militaries, separate organisations be it navy or air force control the aviation assets. Both approaches have their advantages; one offers better efficiency and the other prevents costly duplication of effort.

 

As to WH, the navy typically owns and operates all military aviation assets not assigned to space marines  but as usual there are exceptions. The novel Double Eagle focuses on the Phantine Air Corps, an IG air unit. Allegedly the only IG air unit, it was raised in cloud city Phantine which is so mountainous there are no ground troops.

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For some reason, I am again wishing that there was a group of legit IG that used jump/jet packs. Anyway yeah, they are separated to stop crazy Warmasters from proclaiming themselves Emperor. Another example would be the gov't. A few millennia ago, one man, Goge Vandire, rose to absolute power in the Imperium; for the most part, he was the Emperor. After Sebastian Thor, members of the Daughters of the Emperor (Brides, depending on moment), and the Adeptus Custodes (even these epic warriors were roused from their typical duty) ousted the lunatic Lord, the government was reorganized into the fist Galactic...yeah sorry, was modified so that no one man could rule everything again. So if anyone becomes dangerously powerful, they tweak things to prevent it, again. Only a Rogue Trader, and one with considerable resources, can emulate an old Imperial Army vessel, with ships, troops, tanks, et al, and THEY have to stay outside the Imperium.

 

I love Valkyries, and it torques me off greatly that they didn't include them in the book; like I've said, they seem to like to sidestep it in EVERY line, whether the IG don't officially have them, or even though an Inquisitor can requisition anything, or a Rogue Trader buy it. Oh well, modify one of the Ork fliers, and you're close, even if you maybe shouldn't have to.

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PDFs can have air assets, and IG can commandeer units from the PDFs. So long as they still have PDF crew, the IG can still say they're following the rules. This is where Cadian air assets can come from.

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PDFs can have air assets, and IG can commandeer units from the PDFs. So long as they still have PDF crew, the IG can still say they're following the rules. This is where Cadian air assets can come from.

Sounds immensely fishy, the kind of fishy 40K is most known for getting through, like the logic that the Ecclesiarchy could have the Sisters of Battle because they are not "men" at arms. For Cadia, I always assumed that it had to do with the constant close proximity of Battlefleet Solar, but I suppose that, so long as such shenanigans are limited to one world, the Adeptus Terra can't be asked to give two *****. The IG can have air assets, so long as they can't take them with to the next planet's battlefields.

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Its actually stated by GW that the Elysian's for example have their own flyers. So I think any airborn cavalry unit within the Imperial Guard could have their ovn Valkyries en Vultures.

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Its actually stated by GW that the Elysian's for example have their own flyers. So I think any airborn cavalry unit within the Imperial Guard could have their ovn Valkyries en Vultures.

Possible, but the Elysians have them in lieu of tanks. Much of their fluff has them with light jeeps, like the Tauros, rather than Chimeras and Lemans, so they are missing Ordnance, Battle Tanks, and land-based troop transport; in this scenario, I feel that the Segmentum Command would be fine with it. On their world, which I often think of like Atmos, from the cartoon Storm Hawks, land vehicles are nigh-useless, so the NEED air power. They, for the most part don't have BOTH, or the military would gripe, like they do. All my own opinion, of course.

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The IG can have air assets, so long as they can't take them with to the next planet's battlefields.

 

Well of course they can't take them to another planet... without using the Navy's transports, and that's when the Navy would object. OTOH, if they found another way to get them there (in the ships of a RT allied to a Regiment's commander) or could disguise them as ground vehicles (hey, most IoM **** is plain old ugly and looks like a ground vehicle if you take the wings off).

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Its actually stated by GW that the Elysian's for example have their own flyers. So I think any airborn cavalry unit within the Imperial Guard could have their ovn Valkyries en Vultures.

Possible, but the Elysians have them in lieu of tanks. Much of their fluff has them with light jeeps, like the Tauros, rather than Chimeras and Lemans, so they are missing Ordnance, Battle Tanks, and land-based troop transport; in this scenario, I feel that the Segmentum Command would be fine with it. On their world, which I often think of like Atmos, from the cartoon Storm Hawks, land vehicles are nigh-useless, so the NEED air power. They, for the most part don't have BOTH, or the military would gripe, like they do. All my own opinion, of course.

Heh.

This is why I usually consider the Elysians a part of the navy, rather than the Imperial Guard. Ofcourse, that makes for a different problem, namely that the name would be making surface operations.

 

Canon? Not at all. Does it make sense? As much as anything else in 40k I figure.

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Its actually stated by GW that the Elysian's for example have their own flyers. So I think any airborn cavalry unit within the Imperial Guard could have their ovn Valkyries en Vultures.

Possible, but the Elysians have them in lieu of tanks. Much of their fluff has them with light jeeps, like the Tauros, rather than Chimeras and Lemans, so they are missing Ordnance, Battle Tanks, and land-based troop transport; in this scenario, I feel that the Segmentum Command would be fine with it. On their world, which I often think of like Atmos, from the cartoon Storm Hawks, land vehicles are nigh-useless, so the NEED air power. They, for the most part don't have BOTH, or the military would gripe, like they do. All my own opinion, of course.

Heh.

This is why I usually consider the Elysians a part of the navy, rather than the Imperial Guard. Ofcourse, that makes for a different problem, namely that the name would be making surface operations.

 

Canon? Not at all. Does it make sense? As much as anything else in 40k I figure.

 

The Navy has troops capable of making limited planetary actions (like eliminating planetside pirate camps). These would be much like the Elysians in equipment and training. They still lack the armour and artillery of the IG, not to mention the numbers, so they're not really a problem.

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In Imperial Armour 8 the Flyers were from the 5136th Imperial Navy Tactical Wing.  So still no guard flyers.  Its also important that all regiments don't have directly under their control artillery, armour, and infantry.  So it forces IG regiments to rely on mutual support and if they turn traitor the support is gone and they are easier to deal with.

 

The Navy having the flyers also follows the same reasoning in the US that the Airforce has the flyers (well at least the fixed wing aircraft).  The aircraft like the AC130 Spooky Gunship and the A10 Thunderbolt II "Warthogs" that are designed to support the army are controlled by the Airforce.

 

I don't buy that the Imperial Navy has troops with training similar to the Elysians.  They have there shipboard armsmen that are trained to protect their ship from boarders (and to stop the crew mutinying).  The arms men could be used against small groups in asteroid bases etc, but if there was a planetside pirate camp they would likely need to get IG assistance (if for some reason they couldn't bombard the hell out of them instead).

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In Imperial Armour 8 the Flyers were from the 5136th Imperial Navy Tactical Wing.  So still no guard flyers.  Its also important that all regiments don't have directly under their control artillery, armour, and infantry.  So it forces IG regiments to rely on mutual support and if they turn traitor the support is gone and they are easier to deal with.

 

The Navy having the flyers also follows the same reasoning in the US that the Airforce has the flyers (well at least the fixed wing aircraft).  The aircraft like the AC130 Spooky Gunship and the A10 Thunderbolt II "Warthogs" that are designed to support the army are controlled by the Airforce.

 

I don't buy that the Imperial Navy has troops with training similar to the Elysians.  They have there shipboard armsmen that are trained to protect their ship from boarders (and to stop the crew mutinying).  The arms men could be used against small groups in asteroid bases etc, but if there was a planetside pirate camp they would likely need to get IG assistance (if for some reason they couldn't bombard the hell out of them instead).

 

The original division of combat branches was an important part of WH40k lore. But once GW realized this meant they could not sell tanks to gamers with infantry armies or infantry to gamers with tank armies, this restriction went overboard pdq and now IG regiments can field infantry, armour, artillery and aviation. Just check out Imperial Armour 3 Taros Campaign for example for orbats....

 

Your example of the USAF operating the fliers is correct and yet also incorrect. The army does operate fliers, mostly transport, medevac and other support functions, leaving air (to ground) combat to the USAF. And they are still trying to get that under their own command as the USAF is totally uninterested in air to mud as its not glamerous enough to suit them. The USAF has tried to retire the warthog repeatedly as it simply hates the aircraft and the missions it flies. It finally succeeded on the eve of the gulf war (1990) only to have them be very succesfull and win a reprieve. They are now retired and replaced by F16 Falcons which can't do the job and are disliked by groundpounders.

 

Oh, and by the way...during WWII, the US Army operated more ships than the US Navy....and currently still is larger than many other navies.....just another example of blurred lines....

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Uhmm... The A-10 is not retired! (At least not yet!) You are right! The Air farce has for years been trying to because they want glitzy video game like fast movers but it hasn't happened yet! Even if the air farce is successful the Army has threatened to take over funding that particular aircraft for many years. I Imagine it is a very similar argument from IG regiments regarding the Venerable Thunderbolt and Marauder designs. There can be no doubt that the Fury and Starhawk designs are superior for the Navy's needs but the T-bolt and Marauder still serve admirably in planetary engagements. (Kind of like the A-10 and B-52 designs today. Hardly the technological match of the F-22 Raptor or the B-2 Spirit but effective enough in their specific roles!)

     Interesting point about the PDF aircraft. Are they Navy or not? The fighters on that orbital spacestation are Furies and Starhawks. Ground based aircraft could go either way. PDF's are not part of the IG but can be recruited from PDF's if necessary. Is the same true of Planetary air forces and the Imp. Navy? Just wondering... To use the Army/air force model I always wondered why the Valkyrie (Specifically) and it's variants were not IG vehicles. They are not space capable at all like the T-bolts and Marauders are and are specifically designed for low-level battlefield support. In this sense they seem to have more in common with helicopters and would not pose any particular threat to the Imp. navy's jurisdiction on aerial warfare.

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One division that might be relevant is space-worthiness. While I still feel that most aero-units are the auspice of the Navy, an argument could be used that, if the flier isn't space-capable, if it is stuck on that one planet without the Navy's voidships to carry it, then some leeway could be granted the Guard. There are few worlds that the Imperium genuinely cares about, and they want to control them all, so if the Guard can benefit from some Valkyries, and hold superiority over Orks, Nids, and what have you, so long as that power can't extend beyond that planet, all power to them. The Army had to go because they had voidships, regiments, armor, artillery, and the ability to topple a sector, or more. Even the strongest Guard unit, limited to a single world or system, is still nothing to worry about. If they had a light cruiser, Space Marines, Storm Troopers, and armor, then we'd have to care.

 

Sometimes, that's why I wish that the Space Marines were a bit more integrated, and a bit less written-by-fanboys independent (no disrespect).

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