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Lilikin

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Having looked up Swifty's feat, I gotta say I'm not surprised. It seems the designers know he's going to be spending a lot of his time flat on his back! The ability to stand up for free with full recovery is useful for someone who's going to be knocked out a lot, and the ability to move monsters would be useful if he could use it to push monsters into lava or into a pit. He's STILL at full fatigue, though. Not quite as useful as one would hope.

At least Varikas the Dead can take some abuse before being knocked down and recovers with both full life AND fatigue. Then again, he knows what he's getting into the second time around, having been dead and all.

 

The new fighter's value comes from two factors.  First, he has more speed than any other fighter, and getting wounded actually increases his movement range.  With his ability, a grey or black die would actually make him weaker, as it would decrease his effective speed.  Second, even though he may be relatively easy to kill the first time, his ultimate ability should keep him from getting targeted a second time.  He will play differently from other fighters, for sure, but that's one of the things that makes him interesting.

Since when is a warrior being 'relatively easy to kill the first time' a good thing? When he feats, he can choose to recover all of his health or move all monsters one space away from him. How is that going to 'keep him from being targeted a second time'? He's just too **** easy to beat up. He'll play differently all right; He'll be the lagging anchor that keeps the team from doing what they have to do, because they'll have to keep picking him up after he expends his heroic feat.

Hell, Eliam has 5 movement and 5 fatigue just like Swifty, and nobody cares about him, because it's been debated that Eliam is hands-down the worst Warrior in the lot. Why? Mediocre attributes and oh look! A brown defense die; The die that has a 50% chance to do nothing at all to help him stay alive. At least Landrec the Wise -- the other hero who has a brown defense die -- can attack from range and duck out of the way. Swifty has to get out of both line of sight from ranged attacks and melee/reach range. Nara the Fang has the same attributes as Swifty, 5 movement and 4 fatigue but rolls a gray die, which only has one blank side.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Ravaella Lightfoot, with the Rune Plate and a rune weapon, is going to be bonkers. Rolling 2 Black dice with an absolute minimum of one shield, plus her feat allows her to test her two 4-stat attributes to get 3 shields each! This girl is going to be nigh untouchable, and will give the OL fits.

Edited by PlainWhiteBread

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The new fighter's value comes from two factors.  First, he has more speed than any other fighter, and getting wounded actually increases his movement range.  With his ability, a grey or black die would actually make him weaker, as it would decrease his effective speed.  Second, even though he may be relatively easy to kill the first time, his ultimate ability should keep him from getting targeted a second time.  He will play differently from other fighters, for sure, but that's one of the things that makes him interesting.

Wow I missed that until you mentioned that he sounds even better bet that heroic feat has something else that makes him Move too. Speed is sometimes more valuable then defense in lots of cases. Like dash card for monsters speed for heroes just as nasty.

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There is a lot of hate going on for the new Warrior character in this new expansion. Why not reserve judgement until we even see what the new Skirmisher class skills offer? And if you hate him for his brown die, then don't play him. If you feel he must be played, then jump on the first armor you can get and slap it on him.

 

For all we know, the Skirmisher class may get a bonus for no armor, as thematically it may slow him down. 

 

The brown die: the most hated of all Descent dice.

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With a name like Swifty I'm almost 100% sure that heroic feat is a speed move of some type! I have that feeling this guy will live up to his name lol.

Edited by Silverhelm

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There is a lot of hate going on for the new Warrior character in this new expansion. Why not reserve judgement until we even see what the new Skirmisher class skills offer? And if you hate him for his brown die, then don't play him. If you feel he must be played, then jump on the first armor you can get and slap it on him.

 

For all we know, the Skirmisher class may get a bonus for no armor, as thematically it may slow him down. 

 

The brown die: the most hated of all Descent dice.

When the bard can take a hit better than you, consider another line of work.

The brown die has three faces that have nothing on them. It's hardly an effective method of base defense, especially for a warrior who will be getting attacked by multiple enemies a turn.

 

I don't plan on playing Swifty at all, because low health and poor defensive options in this game is a big ol' sign that says 'Free Overlord Cards, inquire within'. If there was some sort of 'dodge mechanic' that he had for a hero ability (that didn't require him to get slapped around first), he would be able to roll with the big boys; The Cloak of Deception or the Elven Robes can provide mitigation, but they only trigger on one attack per turn; He's at least rolling Grey/Brown on all the other attacks after that.

Whatever the skirmisher class cards do for Swifty will benefit all the other warriors the same, unless it specifies 'if you roll a brown defense die'; even then, wearing the Thief's Vest or Leather Armor will allow any hero rolling the gray die will allow them to roll brown as well. If the class cards say 'if you wear no armor', then hello, Skirmisher Nanok of the Blade.

Edited by PlainWhiteBread
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As for Errata just do what my game group does and play it how its on the card. Ignorance is bliss.

 

The only objection I have with that is Warlord OL class cards. With the use of low level Magus, it's a broken combo. And this is talking from an OL that has played it. I feel at least Reinforce needs a tweak. Bloodlust could most likely use a tweak as well. Otherwise, I agree! I haven't found anything else with the game that really needs fixing, aside from a few CK things, but that's another can of worms.

 

 

I could see how it would be a problem with gaming groups that are "min/maxers" but I just play casually with my brothers and as the OL I will just pick monsters that I haven't used before, not because they would be the most effective.

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When he feats, he can choose to recover all of his health or move all monsters one space away from him. How is that going to 'keep him from being targeted a second time'? 

 

Remember, he also gets two free actions.  How are they going to attack him a second time when he's ten spaces away?

 

Clearly, this is not a character to tank with.  If you use the normal strategies with him, you're going to fail.  Orkell the Swift is made for hit and run attacks, and he seems like he will work well at that.

 

Also, I think you're overestimating his fragility.  Each time a monster damages him moves him farther away from the overlords other monsters, making it harder to dogpile him or surround him than other heroes.

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When he feats, he can choose to recover all of his health or move all monsters one space away from him. How is that going to 'keep him from being targeted a second time'? 

 

Remember, he also gets two free actions.  How are they going to attack him a second time when he's ten spaces away?

 

Clearly, this is not a character to tank with.  If you use the normal strategies with him, you're going to fail.  Orkell the Swift is made for hit and run attacks, and he seems like he will work well at that.

 

Also, I think you're overestimating his fragility.  Each time a monster damages him moves him farther away from the overlords other monsters, making it harder to dogpile him or surround him than other heroes.

 

Also, his feat can help A LOT in opening paths. Remember OL usually uses monsters to block heroes path in order to get his objective so having a kamikaze to run into enemies' hords and then moving all of them back can be useful (once per encounter). The only thing is I find even this strategy easy to dodge by the OL but surely will make him think twice his strategy. Also any hero wants to get killed (for many reasons but also for free OL cards)... We'll have to try him but I believe this class could have fit easily within scouts as an assassin or something like that better than warriors... but thats my opinion

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There is a lot of hate going on for the new Warrior character in this new expansion. Why not reserve judgement until we even see what the new Skirmisher class skills offer? And if you hate him for his brown die, then don't play him. If you feel he must be played, then jump on the first armor you can get and slap it on him.

 

I wouldn't say I hate him, per se.  But I admit it doesn't look that great.  I think it's safe to say Swifty is a concept character.  How well that concept works out remains to be seen.

 

As for how the Skirmisher class might save him, you're right.  The new class might be loaded with skills that counteract his obvious weaknesses.  However, in my opinion that would just be bad game design, if it were true.

 

Classes and heroes were designed in 2E to be interchangeable.  If Swifty needs to be a Skirmisher to remain useful to the party, then nobody will ever play him as another warrior class.  Wasted potential.  Likewise, it becomes debatable how useful/balanced the Skirmisher class will be on other warriors if too many of its skills are designed to counteract weakness they don't have.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying things will definitely be terrible.  We haven't seen any cards from the Skirmisher class yet and you're quite right that we should play Swifty a couple of times before making a final judgement of his abilities.  All I'm saying is he doesn't look promising.

 

On the other hand, with the number of heroes that get cranked out in this game, they can't all be winners anyway.  First edition had 40-odd heroes in its run (all of which are available to 2E via CK.)  2E by itself already has 20 heroes, counting SoN.  22 with Serena and Raythen from the "LT" packs.

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As for Errata just do what my game group does and play it how its on the card. Ignorance is bliss.

 

The only objection I have with that is Warlord OL class cards. With the use of low level Magus, it's a broken combo. And this is talking from an OL that has played it. I feel at least Reinforce needs a tweak. Bloodlust could most likely use a tweak as well. Otherwise, I agree! I haven't found anything else with the game that really needs fixing, aside from a few CK things, but that's another can of worms.

 

 

I could see how it would be a problem with gaming groups that are "min/maxers" but I just play casually with my brothers and as the OL I will just pick monsters that I haven't used before, not because they would be the most effective.

 

 

That's what I have started doing. There is SO much for the OL to work with. With the advent of plot decks, the OL will have so many toys to try out that the combos of old will still stand, but it will be an after thought. At least it is for me. I am one that like to max out my money, so everything will get a shot. If not in a campaign, then in an epic.

 

My heroes have already stated what they want to do next. It really easy to come up with a counter on how to thwart them. It goes both ways. Strategy are pretty solid on both sides.

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After looking at Orkell the Swift's Heroic Feat: "Use during your turn, while you are knocked out, to perform a stand up action. Then, you may either recover all :heart: or move each monster adjacent to your figure 1 space. You can still perform 2 actions this turn.", I'm really looking forward to seeing him in action.

 

Completely independent of class, he can charge into a roadblock, let the OL take him down, then just stand up, move the road block, and be 10-12 spaces further down the path.

 

Make him a knight with defensive training and a decent shield, and yeah, he may fall quick the first time, but then he all of a sudden is back up with full health and is smashing monsters in the face.

 

It's generally rare that a hero gets knocked out more than once except for when that hero is isolated and continually picked on by monsters that aren't being taken care of by the rest of the party. When that hero can stand up with full health, letting the rest of the party not waste actions / positioning reviving them, and STILL perform two actions, I can see why they had to cut down on some of his other stats.

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To be honest, I wouldn't hate on him so much if there wasn't so much necessary combat and unavoidable damage-taking in this game. Call me old fashioned, but I figured a melee-oriented class needed to be sturdy. They have to defend against both ranged and melee attacks simultaneously and there's so few ways to avoid taking damage, so having good defense dice and a lot of health makes for a good warrior. I guess I don't see 'leap in and get killed' as smart tactics or good design, because the OL draws a card (or even more with Bloodlust!) and can pull what they need to close out the quest. At least Swifty has 4 Awareness, so the OL can't tripwire him easily as he makes his 'great escape'.

I guess I'm hating on Swifty because other heroes do what he does so much better without having to die, and I feel the rest of the team has to 'babysit' him when they need not do so with other warrior-class heroes. Nara the Fang have 5 move, one less fatigue, the same attributes and better defense, with an ability and a feat that do damage to defeat monsters faster. Even that Fail-Hero Eliam gets to spend fatigue to shank enemies before they beat on him for his feat, and has two extra health to boot. Swifty has to get hit -- something he can't afford to do often -- to activate his ability, and he has to be knocked out to use his feat. Steelhorns, as much as people hate on him, breaks up blockades just as well and is a lot more durable in general; he just can't do it and run as far across the map as Swifty can.

Still, as good as his feat is, it doesn't change the fact that Swifty's still incredibly fragile. Sure, he could be ten spaces away from where he picked himself up the first time (more often well out of range of his allies!), but ranged attackers do exist and will continue to ruin his day. It's not that hard for the OL to put him down a second time, and at that point his free stand-up is spent. On the few maps where preventing monsters from escaping is important, he's immensely good (unless it's Let the Truth be Buried); Blow the way open and have everyone else follow through. On the majority of maps when he actually has to fight something... Well, whatever he attacks better die, and it better not have any of its friends around or else he's going to get bodied. Hard.

Edited by PlainWhiteBread

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I'll judge Orkell when I play him.  Maybe he has not been given a fair run when looking at other characters stats-wise, but he should be fun to play!

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Here is a link to the new expansion's mini-site. It previews both the new Warrior and Mage character, so you can judge for yourself how they add up, hero ability and heroic feat in all:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_npm_sec.asp?eidm=220&esem=1

Yeah this guy is really good! That brown dice is a minor set back to me. This guy is Drizzit without the pet!

I got to agree with griton too good point.

Edited by Silverhelm

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When he feats, he can choose to recover all of his health or move all monsters one space away from him. How is that going to 'keep him from being targeted a second time'?

 

Remember, he also gets two free actions.  How are they going to attack him a second time when he's ten spaces away?

 

Clearly, this is not a character to tank with.  If you use the normal strategies with him, you're going to fail.  Orkell the Swift is made for hit and run attacks, and he seems like he will work well at that.

 

Also, I think you're overestimating his fragility.  Each time a monster damages him moves him farther away from the overlords other monsters, making it harder to dogpile him or surround him than other heroes.

I got to agree with this too. And scouts get overestimated quite a bit and I know they can be pretty nasty as well. Swifty can easliy be used in a support roll as a scout. That movement and fatigue alone is good! And heroes love them coins for power.

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Completely independent of class, he can charge into a roadblock, let the OL take him down, then just stand up, move the road block, and be 10-12 spaces further down the path.

 

...

 

It's generally rare that a hero gets knocked out more than once except for when that hero is isolated and continually picked on by monsters that aren't being taken care of by the rest of the party.

 

Unless he's running towards the rest of the party, this sounds like he's deliberately putting himself in the ideal position to get KO'd a second time.  And then he'll be toast, and it'll take the rest of the heroes God only knows how long to catch up to him and help him revive, ultimately wasting WAY more than just one action standing him up.

 

Don't get me wrong.  As I'm usually the OL, I could definitely use a loose (glass) cannon of a hero to keep the rest of the party distracted. =)

Edited by Steve-O
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As an OL, it's really easy to work around that feat. You just make sure the monsters are either deep enough or it's not possibly for them to be placed. It's only one space. One space might be all the heroes need, but one space can also be all the OL needs to make things a little more complex.

 

I have never thought very highly of kamakazi kind of characters. I don't even like to play that way with my monsters. There is a devaluing of the piece's worth. But that's my play style.

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As an OL, it's really easy to work around that feat. You just make sure the monsters are either deep enough or it's not possibly for them to be placed. It's only one space. One space might be all the heroes need, but one space can also be all the OL needs to make things a little more complex.

I have never thought very highly of kamakazi kind of characters. I don't even like to play that way with my monsters. There is a devaluing of the piece's worth. But that's my play style.

I understand where you and Steve-0 and others are coming from dont get me wrong. Picking heroes and classes that really complement one another are as important as making a OL deck. Glass canons work best with healing heroes even when knocked down they can get back up with a heal of a few wounds and clean house on the OL's monsters. True OL gets a card but when he/she (glass cannon) gets up with those two actions you thought you robbed from him the OL is going to loose a lot of his monsters or coins! Getting KO'd can be part of the hero strategy or a slight inconvence. This can also force OL to focus on the healer too causing the "glass cannon" to go unchecked and that's bad. I think of this guy as more a light tank/scout with high melee damage output.

True everybody has there play style though.

Edited by Silverhelm

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True OL gets a card but when he/she (glass cannon) gets up with those two actions you thought you robbed from him the OL is going to loose a lot of his monsters or coins!

 

This will ultimately be part of the OL's strategy, too.  The OL can read the hero's feat just as surely as the heroes can read the quest guide.  He shouldn't be suprised when the hero uses his feat to stand up and still have two actions.  Part of the game for the OL will be KO'ing this guy and encouraging him to pop his feat in a position where it won't cause as much trouble as it otherwise might.

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So, any conjecture on what the monsters look like?

Doing the math, 16 figures minus four heroes is 12 monsters (unless FFG decides to do something weird with other models that aren't heroes or monsters).

 

Ynfernael hulks are big and bad, probably one minion and one master. They have Knockback, and some action I can't read, master has Charge (which I'm not familiar with either, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was a CK ability I was ignorant of).

 

Which leaves ten figures between the ironbound automatons and the rat swarms. Not exactly sure how those'll be split up. I originally assumed the rat swarms would be weak and numerous ala kobolds (maybe even with some sort of similar split ability), but the fact that they're two-space monsters makes me doubt this. I doubt they'd make a monster group that's both larger than one space, and numerous. So maybe four rat swarms, six ironbound? Still think rat swarms could have Split, being swarms and all. Editing the math for that, we could be looking at six rats (in a 4-player game, three minions and one master, with two extra minions for when the swarm splits).

 

Which would leave 4 ironbound, possibly with monster numbers similar to the Volucrix Reavers (two minions in a 2-player game, with master added on.) I imagine they'll have Pierce, having spears and all.

 

Any thoughts from people who spend more time thinking about this stuff than I do, so probably have better ideas?

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Which leaves ten figures between the ironbound automatons and the rat swarms. Not exactly sure how those'll be split up.

 

Good deduction skills!  My guess for the 12 monsters would be 2 Ynfernael Hulks, 4 rat swarms, 3 ironbound automatons, and 3 changelings, but I have no idea what the changelings will look like.

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The other monster card on that content spread pic that has the card for the Ynfernael hulk also has the card for the Changeling right above it.  Models seem to resemble the art on the cards, so Changelings will probably look similar to that. (albeit it its mostly a head portrait)

Edited by C2K

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