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Why is Toughness Bonus body-armour? Should it be changed?

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One possible suggestion for quick fix:

 

- TB only subtracts from nonlethal damage

- Unnatural TB subtracts from all damage

- Reduce ordinary damage dice to D6

 

After that it gets a bit more complicated as you have to wrap your head around every permutation where the change might have an effect...

 

Relatedly; the ciritcal system also sucks, so changing just this one bit doesn't really help much IMO.

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The point is that two hearts, metal-hard bones, auto-clotting blood, near-immunity to pain, etc, etc, provides more protection than ten centimetres of plasteel, ceramic carapaces, servos and impact gels.

 

Well, 2.5 centimetres if we go by Codex fluff. But yes, the issue I'm having is that damage gets ignored entirely, rather than just its effects lessened. The whole bit about "soldiering on through countless of bleeding wounds" is just better represented by actually incurring those wounds, and then having the character have an advantage in coping with them.

 

That's why I've pointed to Inquisitor so often. I just don't see what we actually gain by not having TB as a soak between Crit levels but as a 2nd layer of armour. For what? Just because WHFRP had it?

 

- Unnatural TB subtracts from all damage

 

With or without doubling Toughness? If the latter, that could work out. If the former, it would only exacerbate the issue in some situations, whilst solving it for others.

 

Once, I've also heard someone suggest just using Half TB for protection against lethal weapons, and Full TB against nonlethal.

 

There's lots of roads leading to Rome, I guess. Though I'd still be most comfortable with removing it altogether, either by turning it into a reducible hitpoint pool (replacing the current Wounds, perhaps multiplied by some value), or by pursueing that Crit buff suggestion. Or perhaps by another idea that hasn't been thrown around yet.

 

 

I still have no idea what the problem is.

 

Is it that things can't be hurt by things that they should (in fluff, or realistically) be hurt by, due to Toughness?

 

That, and (the other factor) that weapons begin to suck against things they should not suck against, even if they only deliver notably less damage against it rather than none. Apart from it sometimes not feeling very fluffy, it can also throw up a lot of problems in a game (how often did we have GMs complain about their group having become too tough in the various forums?) and more or less negate the existence of entire classes of firearms. Even in Only War, a character with a rather average Toughness of ~30'ish and a flak vest has an almost 50% chance to dismiss a las hit entirely. That just doesn't feel right. Lasguns are not that sh*tty.  :)

 

But this has been pointed out before in the previous posts.

Edited by Lynata

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With or without doubling Toughness? If the latter, that could work out. If the former, it would only exacerbate the issue in some situations, whilst solving it for others.

 

 

Without. Unnatural toughness doesn't double anything. It just provides extra soak = trait value.

 

So a Marine would be TB + UT vs. nornlethal and just UT vs. lethal (which I guess Felling would counteract under such a system).

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Hmmmm... Interesting topic is interesting. 

 

Personally, I have no big problems with the TB Soak system. It is kinda' weird, but it is just a small gear in the big, bad damage/resilience system. 

 

But hey, my gaming group has just returned to the FFG 40k RPGs after a big hiatus and we started with the new DH 2.0. So, thing is, that we absolutely hated its wound mechanics so we invented our own:

- All characters gained a characteristic called Damage Resistance. Its base value is TB+3 for humans, and much more for the tougher guys (Orks have a Damage Resistances of 16 for example). 

- Damage Resistance is reduced from the damage the character takes. The remaining damage then becomes Wounds in a 1:1 ratio and wound effects immediately apply. So your human takes 20 damage -> it drops down to 14 (DR 6) -> the character suffers 14 wounds and the no.14 damage effect (from the DH2.0 damage effect tables). Wounds stack, so if said human suffers 12 more damage, he will be at 20 wounds and he will suffer the no.20 wound effect. 

- Note that with to the DH2.0 damage tables, no.15+ wound effects are quite screwy. You are dead at the no25+ wound effects. So the human in the example above would be dying after the second batch of wounds.

- And here comes the big thing: weapon damage was increased massively. For example:

Autogun damage: 2D10+8

Lasgun damage: 1D10+20

Plasma gun damage: 3D10+36

Meltagun damage: 1D10+70

- So yeah, you get hit by a plasma gun and you can kiss your character goodbye instantly (or burn a Fate Point but Fate Points are banned in my gaming group). Two hits from a lasgun and you are dead for sure. 

- To counterbalance this a little bit, armour values were improved all across the board (normal Flak deflects roughly 10-15 points of damage for example) and at the end of each combat encounter, you remove a number of wounds equal to your Damage Resistance (more if you have someone with good Medicae/First Aid). Note that this will only remove wounds and not ongoing wound effects.

 

As my current experiences with this system go, the game became mega-deadly. Suddenly cover and evasion became extremely important, and things like "stick to cover" and "shoot to kill" are now fundamental rules. You can't just stay in the open, swallowing Heavy Stubber rounds like a pro (been there, done that) - you must play tactically and show your best because the first one who will make a mistake will be the dead guy. Fights are merciless and gritty, and there is no glory in them, even for the winner (who will often claim a Pyrrhic victory). So it is like Warhammer 40k. And I kinda' like it :) . 

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With or without doubling Toughness? If the latter, that could work out. If the former, it would only exacerbate the issue in some situations, whilst solving it for others.

 

 

Without. Unnatural toughness doesn't double anything. It just provides extra soak = trait value.

 

So a Marine would be TB + UT vs. nornlethal and just UT vs. lethal (which I guess Felling would counteract under such a system).

 

 

I really don't want to come across antagonistically (even though I am), but I get the feeling again that Lynata is unaware of the BC/OW mechanics. Unnatural Toughness does not double toughness bonus.

 

Unnatural Toughness is not a big deal. I think the actual issue is that there is a school of thought that says that everything that gets through armour should have some tangible effect. I do not know why this is, but it seems to be there. I do not not understand why, but it is there.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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I'm in favor of getting rid of TB as armor, as well, since my char (who is really not all that tough - TB4) has just taken two grenades to the face and not lost a single wound.

I personally really like the way GURPS handles this kind of thing (and that's just the basic rules; I play without blood loss, but it's there):
An average Human has 10HP, derived from Strength, not Health. HP represent muscle mass, not healthiness. As you take damage, you get penalties:
Shock, for one round, just from taking damage. How much Shock scales with HP: It takes more damage, the more HP you have.
At 1/3 HP your movement and agility get impaired, as you're starting to be severely wounded.
At 0 or less HP you roll ever round to stay conscious. This is against Health: A fitter guy is more likely to stay awake.
At -HP (that is, -10 for most people) you roll to avoid dying. Then again at -2xHP etc. At -5xHP you just die. -10xHP is total bodily destruction IF that makes sense: Arrows will leave a mess, but still a body; Fire leaves a bit of charcoal...
Any wound of more than 1/2HP is a major wound: Roll to avoid stun. Fail hard enough, you pass out.
Same goes for any Shock-causing injury to head or vitals.
More than 1/2 HP cripples a limb, more than 1/3HP cripples an extremity, more than 1/10HP cripples an eye. (Optionally, this can be accumulated damage, but by default this has to be in one go.)
There is even an optional rule about the 1HP blow to the foot that kills you: Once you're under 1/3 HP, you can ignore hits to extremities and limbs unless they're either crits, crippling or more than 1/3HP.

This system makes tough characters (high HT and/or HP) tough but not invulnerable.
A naked Space Marine who gets shot with a lasgun will be hurt, but he will most likely stay in the fight until you get him down to -5xHP, while a Guardsman will go unconscious eventually and then die at -1 or -2xHP.

There is an Advantage that allows for "skin armour" but humans are in a realistic game not allowed to take more than 2pts of it, which is already expensive. Of course, given that an assault rifle deals 5d damage, that's hardly amazing. Body armour has, at the same TL a value of 8 - 25, being able to stop handguns reasonably often but only sometimes stopping an actual rifle.

Edited by Myrion

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Well, if we're hawking other game systems...

 

Ars Magica 5th edition has a system I personally rather like.

 

You roll for and defence. Subtract defence from attack, This difference is your attack advantage, if your attack advantage is positive, the attack hits. Add a (static) damage-modifier to the attack advantage, subtract the target's soak value. Thus how hurt you get, depends on how good the attack is, which I believe is realistic.

 

Damage now gives you a wound category (depending on size).

Wounds are not additive - wound penalties are.

You can have 27 light wounds (for a penalty of -27), but they're still just light wounds, and heal as such.

Ofcourse, the -27 penalty from those wounds will usually let an opponent land a hit that kills you.

 

Specific damage is treated in the abstract (no fancy critical tables, no Bleeding), they are all just handled as penalties.

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First, I apologize for confrontational tone before.

 

However, here is how a battle between the archetypal Brother Agamor and Four Sisters of Battle (Sisters Agnes, Bertha, Cindy, and Dasha) actually plays out.

 

I actually wasted half an hour of my life on this.

 

For Brother Agamor's stats, I used the stats for a Space Marine in Black Crusade using power armour with all working subsystems (note BTW that Space Marines in BC/OW do not have invulnerability to Blood Loss). For the Sisters, I used the Battle Sisters stats in Rising Tempest, but giving their boltgun the stats from Black Crusade and Only War. Note that they all have Mighty Shot.

 

I see, reexaming the stat bloc, that I actually gimped them slightly because I did not give them the +5BS for their helmets.

 

They have made a Gentleman's Agreement to conduct their duel in an empty, featureless plain, standing 50 meters from each other, and to refrain from moving or engaging in Suppressing Fire or in using Fate Points (the Sisters have three each!) or corresponding Faith Powers.

 

Initative!

 

Brother Agamor has an AB of 4 and he rolls 3 + 4 = 7

 

All Battle Sisters also have an AB of 4. I will roll for them collectively because that makes things easier.  8 + 4 = 12

 

 

ROUND 1!

 

Battle Sisters all make half-action Aims and semi-auto bursts. Their chance to hit is BS45 + 10 (aim) + 10 (short range) = 65%.

 

Agnes rolls 15, which is 6 degrees of success = 3 hits. Agamor has a Dodge of 40% and rolls 68.

Bolters do 1d10+7 Pen 4 Tearing.

First hit to body: 3, 5. 6 DoS raise 3 to 6. 6 + 7 = 13 – AP6 – TB8 = 0.

Second hit to body: 6, 8. 8 + 7 = 15 – AP6 – TB8 = 1.

Third hit to one arm: 1, 7. 7 + 7 = 14 – AP4 – TB8 = 2.

RESULT: Brother Agamor takes 3 Wounds and has 17 left.

 

Bertha rolls 74 and misses

Cindy rolls 85 and misses.

Dasha rolls 30. 3 degrees of success = 2 hits. Agamor already used his Reaction and can't Dodge.

First hit is to the head. 2, 3. 3 + 7 = 10 – AP4 – TB8 = 0.

Second hit is also to head. 1, 4. 4 + 7 = 11 – AP4 – TB8 = 0.

 

Agamor shoots semi-auto at Agnes. His chance is the same: 65%.

His bolter is better and does 1d10+9 Pen 4 Tearing.

His roll to hit is 84%. He misses.

 

RESULTS OF ROUND ONE: SPACE MARINE HAS 17 WOUNDS. NO SISTERS HURT.

 

 

Round 2!

 

Agnes shoots. Chance to hit is the same: 65%. She rolls 17 = 5 degrees of success = 3 hits. Agamor's Dodge roll is 47 so all shots hit.

First hit to body: 1, 1. What are the odds! DoS make 1 into a 3. 3 + 7 = 10 – AP6 – TB8 = 0.

Second hit to body: 4, 9. 9 + 7 = 16 – AP6 – TB8 = 2. Agamor takes 2 wounds.

Third hit to one arm: 1, 5. 5 + 7 = 12 – AP4 – TB8 = 0.

Result: Agamor is down to 15 Wounds (has lost 25% of his starting amount).

 

Bertha shoots and rolls 18 = 5 degrees of success = 3 hits. Agamor already used his Reaction.

First hit to one leg. 3, 1. DoS raise 2 to 5. 5 + 7 = 12 – AP4 – TB8 = 0.

Second hit to one leg. 8, 8. 8 + 7 = 15 – AP4 – TB8 = 3. Agamor takes 3 Wounds.

Third hit to body. 9, 4. 9 + 7 = 16 – AP6 – TB8 = 2. Agamor takes 2 Wounds.

Result: Agamor is down to 10 Wounds (50% of starting total)

 

Cindy shoots and rolls 79, missing.

 

Dasha shoots and rolls 63. One degree of success = 1 hit to the body.

Damage is 3, 6. 6 + 7 = 13 – AP6 – TB8 = 0.

 

Now, Agamor shoots semi-auto at Agnes. He rolls 84. ****.

 

 

RESULTS OF ROUND 2! Brother Agamor is at 10 Wounds, no Sisters are harmed.

 

 

ROUND 3 starts!

 

Agnes shoots again. She rolls 10 = 7 degrees of success = 3 hits. Agamor Dodges and rolls 43.

First hit is to the head. 4, 4. 7 DoS change 4 into 7. 7 + 7 = 14 – AP4 – TB8 = 2. Agamor takes 2 wounds.

Second hit is to the head. 1, 3. 3 + 7 = 10 – AP4 – TB8 = 0.

Third hit is to the arm. 4, 1. 4  + 7 = 11 – AP4 – TB8 = 0.

Result: Agamor has taken 2 more Wounds and now has 8.

 

Bertha shoots and rolls 11. 6 degrees of success = 3 hits.

First to one arm. 8, 9. 9 + 7 = 16 – AP4 – TB8 = 4. Agamor takes 4 Wounds.

Second to the same arm: 1, 10. 10 + 7 = 17 – AP4 – TB8 = 5. Agamor takes 5 Wounds.

This means he is now at -1 Wound and takes a -1 Crit to the arm, which is: his hand jerks back and he takes a level of Fatigue. He also takes a d5 Crit from Righteous Fury = 1. The same result/. So he takes  another level of Fatigue.

Third hit to body. 4, 9. 9 + 7 = 16 - AP6 – TB8 = 2. Agamor takes 2 more damage. His True Grit drops this to -1, so he takes a -2 Crit effect to the body, which is: he is thrown backward 1d5 = 5 meters, taking 5 levels of Fatigue, and is Prone.

Result: Agamor is at a -2 Crit level, has 7 levels of Fatigue, and is Prone.

 

Cindy now shoots. Agamor is now Prone and not in short range, so her chance to his is BS45 + 10 (half action aim) = 55 – 10 (prone) = 45%. She rolls 92.

Dasha does the same thing. She rolls 75.

 

Agamor goes. He decides to stay Prone, reducing his profile. He half-action aims at Agnes and makes a semi-auto burst. BS45 + 10 (haa) = 55 – 10 since he's Fatigued = 45% and he rolls 19. That's 3 degrees of success = 2 hits. Agnes Dodges and rolls 56.

She takes one hit to the left leg. Damage is 1d10+9 Pen 4 Tearing; her base AP is 7 and her TB is 3. 3, 2. DoS raise to 2 to 3. 3 + 9 = 12 – AP3 – TB3 = 6. She takes 6 Wounds and has 13 left.

Second hit to the left leg. 8, 8. 8 + 9 = 17 – AP3 – TB3 – 11. She takes 11 Wounds and has 2 left.

 

RESULTS OF ROUND 3: AGAMOR IS AT -2, IS PRONE, AND HAS 7 LEVELS OF FATIGUE. SISTER AGNES HAS 2 WOUNDS; ALL OTHER SISTERS OF BATTLE UNHURT.

 

 

Round 4 starts!

 

Agnes shoots back. BS45 + 10 (haa) = 55 – 10 (prone target) = 45%. She rolls 100. Her gun jams!

 

Bertha shoots: rolls 42. 1 degree of success. Agamor's Dodge is 40 – 10 (Fatigue) – 20 (Prone) = 10% and he rolls 89.

One hit to the left arm. 7, 7. 7 + 7 = 14 – AP4 – TB8 = 2. Agamor's True Grit drops this to -1, which puts him at a -3 Critical level. His bolter is destroyed, he loses a finger, and his WS and BS drop by 1d10 = 7.

Result: Agamor is at -3, has no boltgun, and has a BS of 38 (albteit his pain suppressors protect him from this). He has 7 levels of Fatigue.

Cindy shoots. Rolls 05. That's 5 degrees of success = 3 hits.

First hit to body: 9, 3. 9 + 7 = 16 – AP6 – TB8 = 2. That's 2 damage, reduced by True Grit to -1. Agamor takes a -4 Critical Effect, which is: Agamor is knocked back another 1d5 = 1 meter and is Stunned for 1 round.

Second hit to body: 8, 9. 9 + 7 = 16 – AP6 – TB8 = 2. That's 2 damage, reduced by True Grit to -1. Agamor takes a -5 Critical Effect, which is: Agamor must take a Toughness Test or suffer Blood Loss and take 1 permanent Toughness damage. He rolls 80 and his Toughness drops forever to 39. He also takes another 1d5 = 5 levels of Fatigue , meaning he now has 12 levels of Fatigue and is knocked unconsciousn.

Since he is unconscious and dying, his Cys-An Membrane activates.

 

COMBAT ENDS!

 

RESULTS: Brother Agamor is unconscious and entering suspended animation. He ended up at a -5 Critical Level with 12 Fatigue. No Sisters have entered the Critical Level. This took 20 seconds.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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If the Sisters had been allowed to use their Fate Points (of which they have 3 each) this battle would have been quite one-sided.

 

On the other hand, in the absence of Mighty Shot (which generic Sisters of Battle have, but let's say he was fighting Inquisitorial Stormtroopers or suchlike), he would have taken 6 Wounds and 1 level of Fatigue in this period and Agamor would probably have killed them all before the 12 or so rounds it would statistically take to bring him down to the Sys-An level, especially since they presumably have Carapace Armour and maybe fewer Wounds than a generic Sister (who has 19 Wounds -- just 1 less than him!).

 

In any case it is clear that the idea that SM toughness bonus prevents them from being significantly damaged by "civilian" boltgun fire is quite wrong.

 

Maybe I should try this using Stormtroopers with Hellguns in place of the Sisters, using the stats in OW core.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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I'm sorry that you have wasted half an hour of your life on this, but cherrypicking material from across several intentionally segregated books to create such an obviously biased, reglemented scenario that simply would not occur in an actual game does not help either of us.
 
I suppose you don't find anything wrong with the fact that the majority of Wounds your Space Marine caught in the test would have been neutralised if you had not given your Sisters Mighty Shot? Or what if the Space Marine would have purchased some advances in Toughness?
 
And what are you trying to express by pitting a single Marine against four enemies in the first place, when the debate is about the role of TB both in mixed groups of player characters, as well as for PCs and enemies in versus combat? In an actual game, you'd either have your Space Marine backed up by a number of other player characters, or you would have a party of four Battle Sisters fighting a single Space Marine in an encounter. Maybe that's just my opinion, but single rank and file Astartes shouldn't be boss enemies for such an elite group of player characters.
 
You have also neglected to address other concerns raised in this thread, chiefly the various weapons' reduction to "pebble shooters", if not outright negation (las- and auto weapons). These are issues that, as I have already expressed, exist beyond Space Marines - they are just the type of character where this issue becomes most obvious, so far that the designers of these games had to invent special traits and mechanics just to address this.

 

 

I really don't want to come across antagonistically (even though I am), but I get the feeling again that Lynata is unaware of the BC/OW mechanics. Unnatural Toughness does not double toughness bonus.

 

I know that. Do you know that the end result is still the same?

BC Core Rulebook page 48 - CSM starting trait: Unnatural Toughness 4 --> TB8

OW Enemies of the Imperium page page 115 - CSM trait: Unnatural Toughness 4 --> TB8

 

 

Look, as far as I can see, it has become obvious that we have completely polar opinions on whether this "skin armour" makes for a good representation of what's happening in a battle. I'm missing the various guns having their "oomph", which is apparently something that does not concern you and/or has had no impact in your games. That's fine. But I think the time has come where we can only agree to disagree. I've been fine with TB when I began playing Dark Heresy years ago when it was still published by Black Industries, but over the years I've just become disappointed by what happens once players or enemies delve beyond a certain threshold, and just like I seem incapable of convincing you, my experiences and perception just aren't things that any amount of theorycrafting will be able to push out of my head. :)

 

For what it's worth, I'm actually surprised to see so many players agreeing with my perception, but then again they probably made the same "journey" that I did.

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I gave the sisters Mighty Shot because that is what they are listed as having in their stat block, in the only place AFAIK in FFG material where they have a write-up. I assume we are discussing actual published FFG material, not something you may have written up yourself. :)

 

There is no "theory crafting" at all. I actually ran the battle, doing all the dice rolls, and posted it. Feel free to run the battle yourself and see what happens. It will be approximately the same barring statistically unlikely rolls.

 

As a matter of fact, I gimped them by depriving them of their BS helmet bonus and faith powers.

 

(Actually it would be interesting to see what happens allowing faith powers and letting them getting into melee, because then Wrath of the Righteous would come in to play.)

 

The end result for UT (x2) and UT (+4) is not the same, because a DW space Marine with a Toughness of 70 has 7 x2 = 14 while in OW/BC he has 7 + 4 = 11. It is the same for a statistically average space marine with a Toughness of 41, but he was never a problem, because he was never going to be immune to lasguns or being on fire through natural toughness.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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I gave the sisters Mighty Shot because that is what they are listed as having in their stat block, in the only place AFAIK in FFG material where they have a write-up. I assume we are discussing actual published FFG material, not something you may have written up yourself. :)

 

Dark Heresy Ascension, page 247. Neither Legatine Sister Vespasia nor her Honour Guard have Mighty Shot.

 

There is no "theory crafting" at all. I actually ran the battle, doing all the dice rolls, and posted it.

 

It is theorycrafting because you've deliberately cherrypicked your material from across several unconnected sources. Do you doubt I could produce a similar "demonstration" in favour of my position with the same approach?

 

 

The end result for UT (x2) and UT (+4) is not the same, because a DW space Marine with a Toughness of 70 has 7 x2 = 14 while in OW/BC he has 7 + 4 = 11.

 

The end result is the same because they will be at least TB8. The differences between characters further pushing their Toughness is of little consequence when we are already having issues with the bottom line, is it?

 

 

It is the same for a statistically average space marine with a Toughness of 41, but he was never a problem, because he was never going to be immune to lasguns or being on fire through natural toughness.

 

1d10+3, no pen, versus a resilience of 16 or 18 (depending on hit location), provided the Marine has not increased their Toughness. Or is this where you will be argueing with Righteous Fury again?

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I created (or should say am creating as it is still a work in progress) an RPG. It is based on a d10 system with d6 used for some things so it is easy to pick up if you play Only War. It has Endurance, not Toughness, but functionally they are similar enough. There are no "hit points," you have injuries (bruises, small cuts, even hair fractures you can muscle past, ect...) and wounds (open gashes, broken bones, major trauma, ect...). You can take a number of injuries as half again (rounded up) your endurance bonus (so if you had an endurance of 40, you could take 6 injuries) and a number of wounds equal to your endurance bonus (so the 40 means 4 wounds).

 

Endurance bonus doesn't subtract from damage, only armor does. The two ways to take wounds are when you run out of injuries you start taking wounds and if an enemy does double you endurance bonus in damage (after armor, so with the 40 example they'd have to do 8 damage after subtracting any armor) in a single hit you take both an injury and a wound (meaning that if you are out of injuries and take double damage you take two wounds), wounds cause a cumulative -10 penalty in my system to all tests but they don't have to in an Only War conversion. Wounds also must be treated medically to remove the -10 and also they may become infected if not treated; while injuries heal on their own over time with simple rest (1 a week or so, I forget the exact time and am too lazy to get my thumb drive from the other room, lol). When you run out of wounds you are unconscious and will die in a number of rounds equal to your endurance (so 40 rounds (roughly 4 minutes narrative time) from our example) if you don't get first aid to be stabilized, also you will die if you take another wound (which is any damage over your armor value). So in this system regardless of how much damage is done (if it is 1 point over your armor or twenty, a higher damage weapon is valuable because it is more likely to cause double a persons endurance bonus in damage), you either get one injury, one wound, or an injury and a wound, depending on the number of previous injuries or wounds.

 

I think it could be modified easy to fit in Only War, instead of having 0 wounds making you unconscious you just start taking crit damage (I would say that damage goes on the crit table as in the core rules, so instead of only one point of either a wound or injury no matter the damage total if you get, say, 3 damage past armor, you are now at 3 on the crit table instead of just one point). And obviously you use Toughness not endurance.

 

I'd also say that a lot of weapons cause wounds only in Only War, most guns and all the explosives may be strait to wounds. Or have a special rule that if it goes over your toughness bonus in caused damage it is a automatic wound (so our example gets hit with a grenade, if it does only 4 damage after armor he take an injury but 5+ he gets a wound, while if he is stabbed normal rules apply so he takes an injury (a glancing blow or minor cut) unless it does 8 damage in the hit). One of the things about this is it also keeps righteous fury as is if you use the crit table instead of the instant knock out when you hit 0 wounds. I might also rule that some armors make some weapons cause no damage, ever. Like Power Armor will always stop a rock from hurting you, even if they righteous fury but that'd just be me. The Medicae skill doesn't change much either as infection and such still come into play and wounds need to be treated and medical treatment could help injuries heal fast, such as two a week instead of one.

 

I think my systems use of wounds/injuries would work for any one who doesn't like the Only War Toughness Bonus being skin armor. If there are any issues around combat for Only War that I didn't address modifying my system to handle then I probably can find a way to fix it, just point it out. And likewise if anything doesn't sound right or is confusing just ask, I'll try and explain better, I may run into a problem of knowing what I mean so it sounds right to me but makes no sense to anyone else, lol. And if you think my system for injuries and wounds is dumb and I wasted my time sharing it here then that is fine too, it is a free country.

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My "cherrypicking" is using the chronologically latest material, which does give the results I gave. There is a slim, barely possible chance that the game designers had these issues in their mind when they wrote the later stuff up. You are free to use old material that was not intended to address these issues, but that would be defeating the point, since the whole point is whether or not these issues need to be addressed. (I would think you would be happy that Sisters are actually written up as pretty tough, but no!)

 

The end result is not the same, because, as I have shown, a TB of 8 does not make you immune to bolter fire. A TB of 14 however will. (discounting RF)

 

Here we go again. Lasguns do not  do1d10+3 Pen 0. They do 1d10+3 Pen 0, 1d10+4 Pen 0, or 1d10+5 Pen 2, depending on setting, up to 1d10+9 Pen 2 assuming Squad Orders are in effect and mass fire is being used,* which is they way the Guard is supposed to work. Assuming we are using the latest material, and not Dark Heresy Ascension, and this is I believe the Only War forum. And even assuming 1d10+3, he is not immune to it because of his Toughness Bonus, but because of his armour added to his Toughness Bonus, the armour guaranteeing that the lasgun does not just shoot through into his body, but rather does damage via heat induction or so forth or comes through greatly weakened. With just his Toughness Bonus, he will be hurt, quite heavy so after a few hits. Whereas, in Deathwatch, it is possible to make a marine who will ignore lasguns with just his bare skin.

 

I do not know why you are hung up on Righteous Fury, since it is an integral part of the system and designed to deal with exactly this sort of thing. It guarantees that the pre-Black Crusade issue of someone walking around on fire taking no damage never happens; it also guarantees that mass fire will take down anybody. That's what it's for; it is also the great advantage of bolt and chain weapons, which do it 20% of the time. In fact, if all three shots of a bolter semi-auto burst hits, there is a (pulls out calculator) 50% chance of Righteous Fury, with smaller chances of 2 or 3 Righteous Furies.

 

Das Wahre ist so der bacchantische Taumel, an dem kein Glied nicht trunken ist.

 

*average damage 5.5 + 9 = 14.5 - AP6 - TB8 = .5; max damage = 10 + 9 = 19 - AP6 - TB8 = 5.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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Anyway, as my final statement in this very silly argument:

 

There is no issue in BC/OW of Toughness making things unkillable that should be killable (unlike in earlier iterations of the game). None. As can be demonstrated, as I have done. There is no issue of balance here at all.

 

If the issue is aesthetic dislike of the system, that is something else entirely. But if so do not bring up clearly empirically false issues of Marines supposedly being immune to bolter fire. They are not. Massed bolter fire will kill them. In fact, massed lasgun fire will kill them. (That's what Sergeant Orders are for, guys.)

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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Well, since nobody has been able to present any unintended side effects of changing TB-Soak, I'm going to go ahead and cut it, and only allow it to soak on Primitive Damage, Critical Damage, Poison/Disease Damage, as well as applying the TB directly to the character's total amount of Wounds - incorporating it into my Unified WH40k Ruleset, and see how it all plays whenever I ever get around to actual playtesting.
 

[...]
 
There is no issue in BC/OW of Toughness making things unkillable that should be killable [...]
 
[...]

The thread is five pages in, you've had it spelled out to you at least twice, yet you still think that's the issue?

Seriously?

Edited by Fgdsfg

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My "cherrypicking" is using the chronologically latest material, which does give the results I gave.

 

Chronologically from different games? If so, perhaps you should try again with the "nerfed" 1d10+6 Pen 2 bolters from the DH2 Beta...

 

 

The end result is not the same, because, as I have shown, a TB of 8 does not make you immune to bolter fire. A TB of 14 however will. (discounting RF)

 

Oh, if you wish to discuss characteristics advances now, then we may as well go all the way and look at whether or not TB 10 or TB12 are truly that much better.

Not that my argument was ever limited to bolters, mind you ...

 

 

Here we go again. Lasguns do not  do1d10+3 Pen 0. They do 1d10+3 Pen 0, 1d10+4 Pen 0, or 1d10+5 Pen 2, depending on setting, up to 1d10+9 Pen 2 assuming Squad Orders are in effect and mass fire is being used,* which is they way the Guard is supposed to work. 

 

This point I shall concede; I forgot how very different the game can be depending on where we look. :)

My argument is admittedly based on how much Toughness Bonus messes with this P&P as a whole, not limited to Only War.

 

 

I do not know why you are hung up on Righteous Fury, since it is an integral part of the system and designed to deal with exactly this sort of thing.

 

No, it really wasn't. Righteous Fury is designed to offer a temporary burst in damage that makes shorter work of an enemy than the player/s would have needed otherwise. It was never designed as a means to overcome otherwise invulnerable foes, because invulnerable enemies are a crappy idea and should never be thrown into an encounter with player characters in the first place (unless of course this is not a combat but a cunning challenge where the enemy either needs to be defeated by the players using their brains, or because the players are expected to flee).

 

 

That's odd, because Lynata just wrote a post discussing that very thing.

 

No, actually I did not. Apparently you just cannot see that this is but one pet peeve on my list of problems, which I have, by now, pointed out several times.

 

I shall reiterate:

 

 

You have also neglected to address other concerns raised in this thread, chiefly the various weapons' reduction to "pebble shooters", if not outright negation (las- and auto weapons). These are issues that, as I have already expressed, exist beyond Space Marines - they are just the type of character where this issue becomes most obvious, so far that the designers of these games had to invent special traits and mechanics just to address this.

 

Look, as far as I can see, it has become obvious that we have completely polar opinions on whether this "skin armour" makes for a good representation of what's happening in a battle. I'm missing the various guns having their "oomph", which is apparently something that does not concern you and/or has had no impact in your games. That's fine. But I think the time has come where we can only agree to disagree. 

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Well, since nobody has been able to present any unintended side effects of changing TB-Soak, I'm going to go ahead and cut it, and only allow it to soak on Primitive Damage, Critical Damage, Poison/Disease Damage, as well as applying the TB directly to the character's total amount of Wounds.

 

Been there, done that, not a big deal at all. You might as well remove TB soak completely. 

 

And I dunno guys, but i we modify the Toughness soak, then shouldn't we thinker with the Wounds system too? Like, TB Soak Land is a mess, I can see that, but Wounds Land is just as bad. 

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You mean characters having too many Wounds, or too few?

 

No, it is characters have ablative wounds. Period. It is not like any human can swallow a 75mm armor piercing round (autocannon) and get away with it without any consequences. In the current WH40k RPG system, it only takes a bad damage roll from the autocannon, and you are good to go, with a massive autocannon round sticking out of your head. That's just ridiculous. 

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But a bad roll is a glancing blow, not a shell sticking in your head.

What you could do is introduce something like a shock mechanism: For every point of damage you take you get a penalty to everything you do next round. A -5, up to -20 maybe? Make it for every 1/10th of HP, so that bigger guys, bigger enemies don't suffer as much shock.

Something like that makes even glancing blows have some consequences.

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What you could do is introduce something like a shock mechanism: For every point of damage you take you get a penalty to everything you do next round. A -5, up to -20 maybe? Make it for every 1/10th of HP, so that bigger guys, bigger enemies don't suffer as much shock.

Something like that makes even glancing blows have some consequences.

 

At this rate, we should just remove wounds and apply every damage as a critical effect (with an expanded effect table if you are afraid from the high mortality rate). 

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At this rate, we should just remove wounds and apply every damage as a critical effect (with an expanded effect table if you are afraid from the high mortality rate).

 

How about this?

 

Hit Location Table

Reverse the BS/WS roll

Head = 91-00/10%

Arms = 71-90/20%

Legs = 51-70/20%

Body = 01-50/50%

Multiple hits: Add +10 to the Hit Location rolled for each Hit after the first.

 

Called Shots

 

Called Shot vs Head: -30 BS/WS modifier

Called Shot vs. Arm: -20 BS/WS modifier

Called Shot vs. Leg: -10 BS/WS modifier

 

Defence Value (DV)

The Defence Value for a given Hit Location is the total Damage Soak for the Hit Location; Armour Value, Cover and anything else.

 

Defence Value is subtracted from the Damage of each Hit.

 

Weapon Penetration (Pen)

 

Pen is subtracted from the total Defence Value, not just Armour Value.

 

Injury Thresholds (IT)

Damage in excess of a Hit Location's Defence Value cause 1 Wound, plus 1 Wound for each time it exceeds the Hit Location's Injury Threshold.

 

Hit Location Injury Thresholds are as follows

 

Head Injury Threshold = Toughness Bonus

Arm Injury Threshold = Toughness Bonus * 2

Leg Injury Threshold = Toughness Bonus * 2

Body Injury Threshold = Toughness Bonus * 3

 

Wounds

 

Each location uses a Wound Chart with 5 steps. Each step are progressively worse penalties and status effects, ending in a "Location Wrecked" effect that insta-kills for the Head & Body locations, and obliterates the limb for the Arm & Leg locations.

 

Steps 1-2 Wound Effects can be healed naturally in the usual 6 hours of rest recovers 1 step of Wound Effects manner.

Step 3 or worse Wound Effects requires Medicae Attention to recover from.

 

 

Blag-blabla-blah (AKA notes)

 

We're still tinkering with Wound Charts because ideally they should be simple enough to memorise after a couple of combats, but elaborate enough to lead to interestingly diverse effects during combat.

 

We're also not entirely sure if we like Fatigue enough to try to work it in somewhere. It is a pretty neat concept, but we're not totally convinced it's neat enough to be worth the extra complication

 

Finally, we're considering adopting a tweaked version of the System Shock concept from Inquisitor. Our thinking right now is to tally the total number of Wound Steps, and when it exceeds the victim's TB, roll a System Shock (Toughness Test) Test with a -10 modifier for each Wound Step above the Victim's TB.

Oh, and.. The effect of a failed System Shock Test would be the victim losing conciousness (or equivalent) and gaining the Helpless condition. Anything more severe might just make death a little too likely.

 

We're also considering increasing the Armour Value of everything with an AV by +2, and doing the same with everything that provides Cover Soak. But that's sort of tangential to this.

 

We/I would be very interested in criticism/comments, and especially in suggestions for the Wound Charts. I'll try to remember to post our WIP Wound Charts tomorrow, as I don't have them at hand right now.

Edited by Simsum

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But a bad roll is a glancing blow, not a shell sticking in your head.

 

That's how I chose to interpret Wounds in general - glancing hits or blows. A form of "ablative luck", if you will.

 

Certainly still somewhat unrealistic, but better than "ablative wounds", and (or so I think about hitpoints in general) a good compromise that keeps from player characters dying too easily (depending on the system).

 

At this rate, we should just remove wounds and apply every damage as a critical effect (with an expanded effect table if you are afraid from the high mortality rate). 

 

I have no practical experience with that system, but from the description it sounds as if that worked nicely in Inquisitor. There, Toughness basically served as a "buffer" between Criticals. If damage after armour is equal to or under your TB, you'd get 1 level of Critical Injury to that location. Damage up to twice your TB means 2 Crits, thrice your TB 3 Crits, and so on.

 

The effect would be that anything that punches through your armour causes at least one Critical Injury effect, or makes an existing injury worse - with particularly powerful weapons causing particularly bad wounds. It's deadlier, but characters are still likely to survive more than a single hit on a location. They are also more likely to require medical aid or even cybernetic replacements after the battle has concluded, though.  ;)

 

 

Simsum: I see you've come far in fleshing out your alternative system. :) Kudos! Did you already have a chance to playtest this? Any examples you could post?

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