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The_Brown_Bomber

XXBB Rookie Swarm

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I've never flown this list but I've played against it a couple of times.

 

I flew Captain Jonus, two Gamma's and two Academy Pilots, and beat it both times. But it definitely is a good list. B-Wings with HLC's are no joke. The firepower they can dish out at long range is impressive. But going head to head against loaded up bombers backed by Jonus's ability will be a challenge. I'd say it's a real solid list though. 

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Gotta figure you're going to be setting up first and the opponent can react.  What I'd suggest is putting the X wings in the middle so you can dog fight with them through the asteroids and set up 1 B on either side of the board.  I'd go slow for the first few turns with the Xs so the Bs can go faster and gain position to flank the opponents, who hopefully targetted the X wings first.  

 

If they decide to send their main force after one of the B wings, I'd redirect the other three ships to take out the secondary force - you should be better off trading 1 B for whatever the secondary force is.  Plus that sacrificial B probably lasted through the first turn and can do some damage before dying. 

 

Whatever you do, don't engage unless at least 3 of your 4 ships have good shots in.  You have to thin their numbers quickly to compensate for the fact that they always attack first (basically you have one less turn to win than they do)

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This list, aka blue thunder, should lose every time against bloody daggers:

Dagger with Advanced Sensors

Dagger with Advanced Sensors

Red

Red

Many people change out the 2 reds for Biggs and a rookie, but either list is stronger against more lists (3 bh, obsidian swarm, 2 bh, other ps2 lists) than blue thunder is. Giving up the hlc is an easy trade for advS, because AdvS is so good on daggers, whether you're barrel rolling before moving or taking an action before getting blocked or stressed. I expect to see bloody daggers in some form on Sunday at world's this year.

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Xwing Rookie Pilot (21) 

Xwing Rookie Pilot (21)

Blue Squad Bwing + Heavy Laser Cannon (29)

Blue Squad Bwing + Heavy Laser Cannon (29)

 

Low Pilot skills but impressive firepower. What do u think?

 

I've had 3 games with this list and am 3-0 with it. I lost 1 Rookie in 1 game and the other 2 games I didn't lose a ship. 

 

Yes it is low PS and typically I've had to move all of my ships first and then withstand my opponents taking almost all of their attacks before I get a shot. Once I get through that I start lighting them up. 

 

I'll have to give Hothie's list a look but I love my HLC's alot though.

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Blue thunder will have bad matchups, like obsidian swarm flown by either Jacob or Lyle, 3BH, scimitar lists, heck even additional damage, not to mention all of the lists that are ps4 or higher built to match up against bounty hunters or other lower ps builds. Bloody daggers either matches up better than or equal to blue thunder to all of those lists. Its true, they do fly differently, but I think there are just too many builds that blue thunder will struggle against that bloody daggers won't. That's why I think we'll see more dagger squads on Sunday than we will blue thunder. I could be wrong, though, but we will see in a few weeks.

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I went 3-1 (finished in seventh place) in the Nordic Championship yesterday (my loss came against the future winner) with:

2 Rookies

Blue with HLC

"Dutch" Vander with Ion Turret and R5

See the my report here: http://www.teamcovenant.com/veldrin/2013/10/28/nordic-championships/

Edited by Veldrin

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I take it this is Bloody Daggers?

Dagger with Advanced Sensors

Dagger with Advanced Sensors

Red

Red

Yep that's the one.  Someone in the Team Covenant tournament going on right now used that build and called it Bloody Daggers (Red Daggers) and it's kind of stuck.

 

Hothie's certainly more of an expert than I am, but I don't know if I agree with him on this one.  Both squads have good and bad match-ups.  I haven't gone through every popular squad and tried to rate how they each match up, so maybe he has a lot more hard facts than I do, I don't know.  It just feels a bit to me like he's taking one admittedly very bad matchup of XXBB versus itself (where Bloody Daggers trumps with higher PS), and applying that a bit across the board.

 

I think the Daggers version actually fares worse against a swarm, for instance, because the extra PS isn't going to help it any, and nothing thins out agility 3 ships at range like an HLC does.  

 

Honestly, I think one of the great things about B-wings is that they have so much versatility in how you can build them.  But on a purely personal note I don't think I have any more fun with a B-wing than I do when it's rolling 4 dice at every range.  That's hardly scientific, and AdvS is a sweet upgrade, but HLC throws a lot of weight of fire around.

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 It just feels a bit to me like he's taking one admittedly very bad matchup of XXBB versus itself (where Bloody Daggers trumps with higher PS), and applying that a bit across the board.

 

Not true. I've given many different squads that I think Daggers does better against, and I guess I'll have to expound on that.

 

Although you are right about Daggers vs Thunder, though, because the higher PS in a mirror match will absolutely make the difference.

 

Okay, here's my thinking in the matchup game:

 

vs Obsidian Swarm ( 2 AP's, 4 Obsidian, Howl:)

 

One way to beat Blue Thunder is to take out a ship before it ever fires. Obsidan swarm can, and often does do that, especially against the AG1 Bwing. AP's can block Thunder very effectively, which increases the efficiency of the howl rerolled Obsidian attacks.

Daggers does better in this matchup for many reasons. The PS4's will shoot before the Obsidians do, meaning at minimum 1 ship, possibly 2 will be gone before it fires. At minimum you take the focus token off of the Obsidian before it fires. Also AdvS on the Daggers means they either won't be getting blocked at all due to barrel rolling before maneuvering (and the Obsidians move first, so the Daggers will know where the Obsidians will be), or the Daggers can still take an action before getting blocked. Huge, huge difference. It doesn't matter if you're rolling 4 dice with your HLC, because you won't have an action to modify your dice with because you will have been blocked, which swarms are very effective at doing. AdvS ensures that the Daggers will always have a focus or TL if they get blocked. And I think the math wingers have determined that 3 dice with focus or TL is better than 4 dice unmodified.

TIEs are fast, too. They can, and usually want to get to Range 1 quickly, thus nullifying the HLC advantage.

 

vs 3BH

3BH is a tough matchup for Thunder because it packs the firepower to take out an Xwing, or possibly Bwing, before it ever fires. 3BH's also can get into range 1 quickly, which is another way to beat Thunder, take away the HLC advantage. Once those BH's are in Range 1, the Bwings won't have anywhere to move next round. They will be stuck for a round or 2, while the Hunters fly past and get free shots out of their rear arcs, with focus or TL.

Daggers doesn't have that problem at all. The Daggers move after the Hunters do, so the Hunters will be out of the way, or the Hunters will intentionally try and block the Daggers. But the Daggers have AdvS, so they can barrel roll out of the way of the Hunters and still perform their 2K maneuver and get an attack, or at minimum get an action before getting blocked if they can't roll out of the way first.

But you say Thunder can take out a BH in one turn? So can Daggers, only Daggers will take that BH out before it fires back. Another big difference.

 

Scimitar Bomber lists:

Blue Thunder is at a big disadvantage here. Thunder likes to be at Range 2-3 for it's HLC, but so do the Bombers with their Assault Missiles. So Thunder is going to take the brunt of the Missiles, and since they are all PS2, they will have to eat those missiles whether they kill a ship or not due to simultaneous fire. And if Thunder has initiative, the Scimitars can TL on their turns without Jonus or some other Squad Leader.

 

But with Bloody Daggers, the Bombers have to move into Range 3 to grab TL's on their turns (aside from the 1 who can get a TL from Squad Leader,) which means Daggers can then move into Range 1 and thus nullify the Missile attacks that round. Then Daggers will attack before the bombers do, thus possibly killing a ship before it fires its missiles, and (unless it's a gamma swarm,) it won't get to fire them back regardless of what range they are. And have I mentioned Advanced Sensors for rolling out of firing arcs before or after moving?

 

Other PS2 lists:

Golds with Ion? Rookie Xwings? Omicron Group Pilots? Simultaneous fire rule for Blue Thunder. Not so with Bloody Daggers.

 

 

Yes, I know Blue Thunder is a powerful list. I get that. It does put a hurt on you. But there are ways to beat it. And I hope I have explained well enough about some of the matchups that Blue Thunder will struggle with. Bloody Daggers, with AdvS, will fare either better than Blue Thunder in many cases or equal to in other cases. Which, to me, makes Daggers a better squad, and more likely to be seen in the top 16 at Worlds this year. Maybe we see Blue Thunder as well, but my money is on Bloody Daggers.

Edited by hothie

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great discussion points posted here. Blood Dagger > Blue Thunder + a number of likely tournament squads due to its PS4. running 4 ships seems to be the optimal number of rebels with this style of squad.

Im wondering if there is a XXB or BBX build that will trump them both and be good against the field. Will running Luke or Wedge with swarm tactics viable in a XXB build?

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The problem with throwing in one B is that the lower agility immediately makes it the target of all incoming fire unless you've got Biggs handy.  Two of them - especially two of them hanging back with HLCs - force a much tougher choice of target on them and the squad as a whole is a lot more vulnerable with 8 fewer shields/hull to soak up damage.

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I personally have had a lot more luck with the 4 ship XXBB as compared to BBX lists (don't recall trying a XXB). That being said the 4 ship build could simply be a crutch so far as it is more forgiving for someone like me who doesn't have the same experience and skill as compared to some of the others posting. At this point for me being able to throw between 14-16 dice per round is really strong(not to mention the extra HP's your opponent has to eat through).

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I have had some luck with BBX, where the X was Biggs.  Then he becomes more of a B-Wing delivery system.  In that build I do recommend Daggers and AdvS, because Biggs basically ensures they survive to get into dogfighting range where they can use AdvS to be very slippery.  I don't know that I recommend it over a BBXX, but I think if you're doing BBX, Biggs is the way to go.

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Dagger 

HLC

Sensor Jammer

 

Dagger 

HLC

Sensor Jammer

 

ORM

APL's

 

It is a pretty good list a friend of mine thought up. Much better than the 2 X's will get you if you can anticipate movement really well. 

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Dagger 

HLC

Sensor Jammer

 

Dagger 

HLC

Sensor Jammer

 

ORM

APL's

 

It is a pretty good list a friend of mine thought up. Much better than the 2 X's will get you if you can anticipate movement really well. 

Possibly, but you give up 4 total attack dice over two attacks (2x3 vs 1x2) and an agility dice to gain 1 extra shield, 2 extra hull, and a 360 shot, plus the large base for blocking. I would take 2 x's over any ORM any day

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Tried the Bloody Knives squad tonight and was impressed with it's performance, especially the B's and their Advanced Sensor suites. Having the ability to act before you move is a sweet ability...loved the focus before K-Turn trick. It's well worth the 3 points of the upgrade for this ability. I played against a list with:

 

"Super" Luke w/Vet Instincts, R2-D2 & Shield (37)

Tycho w/PTL, Homing Missile & Shield (38)

Blue Squad w/Fire Control Computer (24)

 

At the start I moved 1 straight for 2 turns to see how the fight developed. Turn 3 one of my X's took a hit from Tycho's missile, losing both shields and getting the "Roll for damage when doing a red maneuver" critical hit. In return my X's managed to down Tycho while the B's stripped the shields off the opposing B. Turn 4 saw Luke finish off my damaged X while I blew the opposing B into small pieces. Turn 5 saw Luke end up at range 1 in front of all three fighters. The X stripped Luke's shields with 3 hits and then a B rolled 4 hits to Luke's 1 evade and finished the job.

 

All in all a promising start for my first use of this list.

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I am currently testing this build out. It has slightly less firepower, but it has 360 and is more accurate in its firepower.

 

Early days, but signs are good.

 

 

46 points
Lando Calrissian
Veteran Instincts, Nien Nunb
 
27 points
Dagger Squadron Pilot #1
Advanced Sensors
 
27 points
Dagger Squadron Pilot #2
Advanced Sensors

 

I have to concur with Hothie though, Bloody daggers is the better squad of the two, for all the reasons he states. If I want HLC's on B-Wings, I go all out with three Daggers with FCS and HLC's

Edited by Englishpete

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