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saiharris

Template off the board but model not at the end...

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So, this cropped up last night, the template goes off the table but by the start and end of the move the model is on the table.

 

For the life of me I swear there is a part somewhere that says that counts as fled.

 

Where is this proof or am I wrong?

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You are incorrect.  That was a common misconception due to the rules for obstacles, but the rule is only that you are removed if any part of the base is off the playing area.  This can only happen once you have completed your move.

VanorDM likes this

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Yeah KO is right.

Techinally the ships don't actually travel from point a to point b. Per the rules they effectively teleport to the end of the manuver template.

The only time you would track their travel along the template is if you run into something.

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Yeah KO is right.

Techinally the ships don't actually travel from point a to point b. Per the rules they effectively teleport to the end of the manuver template.

The only time you would track their travel along the template is if you run into something.

And actually I think the only time is if you run into an obstacle.  Colliding with a ship will force you to move back along your template, but the template technically didn't have anything to do with the collision - only the final resting place of your ship's base determines collision with another ship.  The template is just used to make sure you backtrack accurately.

 

The only thing in the game that clearly interacts with the template itself is if it overlaps with an obstacle, most commonly an asteroid.  You can move straight through a rock with your ship landing safely on the other side, but if the template overlapped any part of the rock, you have to roll damage.  Same with moving OFF of the rock.  

 

I lost Biggs once with 2 health remaining when I just barely clipped an asteroid.  He nicked it, rolled damage, took a hit.  Had no way to maneuver off without the template touching the rock, so moved off the rock, rolled damage, took a hit and killed him.

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The only thing in the game that clearly interacts with the template itself is if it overlaps with an obstacle, most commonly an asteroid.

There are at least a few others.  Proximity Mines are the main one during a maneuver.  Barrel Roll and Boost can't perform the action if the template would overlap a ship or obstacle, as well.

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Colliding with a ship will force you to move back along your template

That's what I meant. Normally you pick up your ship and place it at the end of the template. But if you land on another ship, you slide it back along the path of the template to the point that they're touching.

Actually running into a Astroid doesn't cause you to move back along the template. You just drop it off at the end like normal, but take damage for the template overlapping the obstacle.

So techincally I was incorrect, but it's only when you overlap another ship that the movement along the template is used, because you backtrack along it to find where you stop. Obstacles are more of a 2 step process. Where you land, and if the template overlapped it.

Bosts and Barrel Rolls also don't really require that you track your momvement along the template, they're a yes/no condistion. Either you can make the move or you can't, but you don't bost part way and stop.

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Wait! ridiculously rare hypothetical situation incoming....

 

So say a ship would land partially off the board but bumps another ship with the bit that is still partially on the board. The ship then moves backwards along the template and is no longer partially off the board (because thats the way the bump ended up). This ship hasn't actually flown off the board has it?

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So say a ship would land partially off the board but bumps another ship with the bit that is still partially on the board. The ship then moves backwards along the template and is no longer partially off the board (because thats the way the bump ended up). This ship hasn't actually flown off the board has it?

Correct.  Only the final position of the ship actually matters.

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So say a ship would land partially off the board but bumps another ship with the bit that is still partially on the board. The ship then moves backwards along the template and is no longer partially off the board (because thats the way the bump ended up). This ship hasn't actually flown off the board has it?

Correct.  Only the final position of the ship actually matters.

 

Cool I assumed as much but I have just never thought of it before.

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Point 3, " Execute Maneuver", on page 7,  under ACTIVATION PHASE:

 

"Holding the template firmly in place, grip the side walls of the base and lift the ship off the play surface. Then place the ship at the opposite end of the template, sliding the rear guides of the ship into the opposite end of the template."

 

This ship does not follow the template. It only starts and ends movement at the ends of a template. It only follows the template when overlapping a ship and forced to backtrack on it. So if you start movement in play area and end movement in play area, you are fine.

 

Note: New FAQ points out that if you barrel roll or boost out of play area, but your movement would take you back in, you don't get to reveal your dial as your action has taken you off the play area and are considered to have fled the battlefield and the ship is immediately destroyed.

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So say a ship would land partially off the board but bumps another ship with the bit that is still partially on the board. The ship then moves backwards along the template and is no longer partially off the board (because thats the way the bump ended up). This ship hasn't actually flown off the board has it?

Correct.  Only the final position of the ship actually matters.

For instance last night I executed a move near the edge of the board, only to have my buddy block my path. Once I adjusted for collision my corner was JUST over the edge, and that was the end of him.

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"If a ship executes a maneuver that causes ANY PART of it's base to go outside of the play area (beyond any edge), then that ship has fleed the battlefield. Unless specified by a mission overview, ships that flee the battlefield are immediately destroyed." - Rulebook page 17

The standard place movement template then pick up and place down doesn't apply here. If the manuever template either leaves the battlefield or is close enough to the edge that if the base would be outside the play area even by a mm....then it is destroyed.

I don't believe this is correct, sorry.

It says any part of the base - it says nothing about the maneuver template.  And the FAQ makes it clear that the ship does not 'travel' the length of the move template - it starts at one end, is picked up and moved to the other end.  As long as the ship starts and lands safely inbound, there's nothing in the rules in indicate that the template crossing the map edge destroys your ship.  In fact I would argue just the opposite since it clearly says the ship does not physically cross that distance.  It is just picked up and moved to the other end, barring collision.

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I am waiting for a reply from FFG about thier ruling on this.

The FAQ already answered this.

Page 4 top question.

 

Q: Can overlapping other ships cause the active ship to flee the battlefield?

A: Yes, if any part of the ships base in its final position (after moving backward) is outside the play area, then the ship has fled the battlefield.

Even though we're not talking about overlapping, the rule is quite clear. The only thing that counts is the final position of the ships base.

Edited by VanorDM
CrookedWookie likes this

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"If a ship executes a maneuver that causes ANY PART of it's base to go outside of the play area (beyond any edge), then that ship has fleed the battlefield. Unless specified by a mission overview, ships that flee the battlefield are immediately destroyed." - Rulebook page 17

The standard place movement template then pick up and place down doesn't apply here. If the manuever template either leaves the battlefield or is close enough to the edge that if the base would be outside the play area even by a mm....then it is destroyed.

I am waiting for a reply from FFG about thier ruling on this.

To come at this another way, I highlighted what I find to be the most interesting part of your argument.  "the standard...doesn't apply here."  

 

Ok...where are you getting that from?  That's a fairly bold statement, as rules apply in all situations unless something, somewhere, specifically states that they do not.  I don't remember having seen anything to this effect anywhere, so either you just kind of decided that on your own, or I missed that ruling.

 

If I did, in all seriousness, I apologize.  Point me at it and I'll go check it out.  But I don't remember seeing anything stating that your move template is at no point allowed to cross the map edge, only your ship base.

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so either you just kind of decided that on your own, or I missed that ruling.

You didn't miss anything. As I pointed out, Pg 4 of the FAQ already covers this.

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I'll wait for an official ruling from FFG becaue no the FAQ does not clearly cover this.

The rule book is pretty clear.

 

If a ship executes a maneuver that causes any part of it's base to go outside the play area, then that ship has fled the battle field."

But since a ship does not travel the length of the template, then the final resting point of the base is the only thing that counts. The phrase "to go" does not refer to the base leaving the play area during the maneuver, because the ship doesn't actually travel from point a to point b. As far as the rules go, it "teleports" from one point to the other, and ignores all intervening space.

In this case, the phrase "to go" does not mean what you think it means. It means that when you put the ship in the final position, if that maneuver you just preformed causes the ship to go ouutside the play areas.

 

Execute Maneuver: Holding the template firmly in place grip the side walls of the base and lift the ship off the play surface. Then place the ship at the opposite end of the template...

At no point in this step do you pay any attention to where the ship is along the path of the template. You pick it up from where it is and place it at the other end.

If the template passes over a obstacle, you deal with the rules for that. But that has nothing to do with the edge of the play area. If your ship stops and overlaps another ships base, then you move back along the template to see where you are touching, but no longer overlapping.

The FAQ on page 4 makes it extremely clear that once again only the final position of the base matters for checking to see if a ship has fled the battle.

No where in any of the rules does the position of the ship during the maneuver matter, or is even mentioned. The only thing that even comes close is when you are overlapping a ship.

Edited by VanorDM

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If all of your statements are true then why does the rule in the book say " causes any part of it's base to go outside the play area" neiher the rulebook or FAQ say "causes any part of it's base to end up outside the play area" it clearly says "to go". I'll wait for an official ruling from FFG becaue no the FAQ does not clearly cover this. All page 4 of the FAQ proves is that yes if your ship would end overlapping another and travels back til it is no longer overlapping said ship, but it's base now has any part outside the play area it is treated as "Fleed the Battlefield"

As I think he/I/we have been trying to explain, there's nothing in the rules that says anything about your movement template having any kind of interaction with the edge of the play area (the way it does with, say, an asteroid).  As you point out, it stresses in big bold letters in a couple of places that if any part of your ship's base "in its final position" is outside the play area it is considered to have fled (not 'fleed,' btw) the battle.

 

There's nothing anywhere in the rules to indicate that it matters at all if the template crosses the boundary of the play area, so as long as your ship starts fully in-bounds and ends fully in-bounds, there shouldn't be any problem, at least as the rules are currently written.  They could always clarify it in the next FAQ I guess.

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They could always clarify it in the next FAQ I guess.

They could, but I don't see there is any need to do so. The rules are quite clear, and the FAQ does again mention that only the final position counts.

I think that Bjorn is getting caught on the term "to go" which in this case doesn't mean what he seems to think it does.

The fact that he feels that the normal rules don't apply in this case, even though there's nothing that actually says that, makes it clear he's putting way to much weight on that term.

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I don't think they need to either.  I was just allowing for the possibility that, much as they clarified you can't boost or barrel roll out of bounds, even if your subsequent maneuver brings you back into play, they could decide that if your template was going to cross it was an illegal move, or caused you to flee, or any number of things.

But like you said - that starts to get unnecessarily complicated, so my guess is all they really care about is that you start your maneuver in bounds (hence no boost or barrel roll out on your action) and end your move in bounds.  It's the simplest, cleanest way to handle it and I think it's definitely a case of "if it ain't broke..."

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This came up during a game I was watching on Vassal today. The room was marked beginner room so as I was watched the conversation and one player tell the other that if any part of the ship "left the board at any time during its movement" it was gone, I felt the urge to speak up. He quoted page 17 in response and the last thing I wanted to do was start a debate during a friendly game so I just politely let it go.

Between the games I've watched and those I've played in my local meta final placement seems to be what I see. It's what I use. Do we think that's typical of most of the community?

Thanks.

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He quoted page 17 in response and the last thing I wanted to do was start a debate during a friendly game so I just politely let it go.

The guy who said that any time during it's movement quoted page 17?]

Because as far as I know it's commonly accepted that a space between the start and end of the template effectively doesn't exist. Unless you land on something. Even when dealing with obstacles the rule doesn't care where the ship is, only that the template itself has overlapped the obstacle.

The rules for a maneuver are pretty clear, and again seem to be commonly accepted. You place the template at the base of the ship, then pick it up and place it at the other end of the template.

I thought this was actually covered in the FAQ but I couldn't find it.

I understand you not wanting to start a debate in a game you weren't playing. But I don't know if I could of done the same thing. The rules are pretty clear and the person who said that, clearly doesn't know them as well as he or she thinks.

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