Who draws card by Earendil?

[Mndela 422]

When you play this card and you give the control to other player, who draws the card it says?

 

 

[richsabre 358]

the card is never switched control. the only thing that changes are player's threat dials. so the player who plays it gets the card

rich

[Mndela 422]

Mmmmh..., when you give one attachment to other player..., you are giving also its control

[richsabre 358]

oh i see. i thought you were referring to a card ability i hadn't seen. i would still say the player who has played it. it is a 'response' action therefore it should respond to entering play. upon entering play the player who played the card gets to draw 1 card.

 

also there is parts in the rules about the player who pays the cost of a card getting the effects....i will try and find it to see if it helps here

 

i may be wrong, but that how i would play it. i havnt really played attatchments on other players before

rich

Edited October 21, 2013 by richsabre

[alogos 171]

I always played it like the controller of the attached hero draws the card...

 

I based it on the fact that the text is "after entering play" and that the rules say "When a player plays an attachment card, he has the option of giving control of that card to another player by attaching the card to one of that player’s characters."

The control is given as it is attached, that mean "when" it enters play for me. The "After" effect of the song hence, should happen after, and the one who received the song will draw.

Just my deduction, never saw an official ruling though.

Edited October 21, 2013 by alogos

[richsabre 358]

I always played it like the controller of the attached hero draws the card...

 

I based it on the fact that the text is "after entering play" and that the rules say "When a player plays an attachment card, he has the option of giving control of that card to another player by attaching the card to one of that player’s characters."

i think it comes down to how you read that sentence. if you read it as 'when a player plays a card'....i.e. the player who payed the cost, then i consider the card already in play when that descision is being made who to give it to, hence they get the extra card.

 

the reason i think this rather than the other is that you are not, by reading the above sentence, 'playing' the attatchment on the other player, but giving them control.

 

perhaps this has been ruled otherwise, but i also cannot remember

 

another similar one is when a card is 'revealed' and 'enters the staging area'....here revealed comes before the card enters the staging area, they are two different parts to the  card coming into play (i think thats correct?)...i see this case as similar to playing attatchments to another player.

rich

Edited October 21, 2013 by richsabre

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Only the card's controller can trigger the response... the owner of the card would have no way to trigger the response if they played it on another player's hero.  Whoever controls the attached hero can trigger that response and draw a card.

[Nerdmeister 144]

I never thought about this card like that. Propably because we always play it on our own heroes.

Now that I´m looking at it again, I´ll have to side with GrandSpleen on this: Whomever controls the hero it is attached to can trigger the card draw.

[richsabre 358]

i see....nice to know!

rich

[Thanatopsis 252]

I look at it this way:

The card has not entered play until it touches the table.  I can pay the resources and pull the card out of my hand, but it's not "in play" until the card is on the table and attached to a hero.  At that point, I trigger the response and I ask myself, who controls the card? 

[Mndela 422]

Oh yes, good way to see the game

 

 

PD: one friend and me have been constructed our decks around the Earendil strategy, so we must play it in the first round on Glorfindel (my friend). To achieve it, we both have 3 copies of Earendil in each deck. The first player who gets one, play it: on Glorfindel, maybe on his own control, maybe on the other friend control.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Mndela

[CJMatos 54]

Sorry but have to disagree with you people.

 

I allways play it as the card enters play as soon as you pay it and reveal it, so the player who pays for the card gets to draw another...

 

Compare this Response with the Renewed Friendship text:

 

The last says "you may (...) have that player draw 1 card".

 

So i'd say that if Song of Earendil was intended to make the player who controls the hero that gets it, draw one card, it should have a similiar text.

 

 

Renewed Friendship is from Redhorn Gate and Song of Earendil is from Road to Rivendell, so that reforces my opinion...

[richsabre 358]

Sorry but have to disagree with you people.

 

I allways play it as the card enters play as soon as you pay it and reveal it, so the player who pays for the card gets to draw another...

 

Compare this Response with the Renewed Friendship text:

 

The last says "you may (...) have that player draw 1 card".

 

So i'd say that if Song of Earendil was intended to make the player who controls the hero that gets it, draw one card, it should have a similiar text.

 

 

Renewed Friendship is from Redhorn Gate and Song of Earendil is from Road to Rivendell, so that reforces my opinion...

yes- this is what i was basing my answer on. i am still unsure, as i was also thinking cards are in play as they are payed for, and coming 'onto' the table happens after

rich

[Mndela 422]

This card is more similar to Song of Earendil than Renewed Friendship:

 

 

And it is supossed that the shadow card dealt is of an enemy engaged with the new controler.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Mndela

[CJMatos 54]

Sorry but Rider of the Mark specifically states "after changes control", thus creating an exact moment. AS to Song of Earendil, we have a vague concept "enter play"

 

 

What we are discussing is the moment when a card enters play, and so who gets to draw the card.

 

Do a card enter play when its costs are payed or only when it hits the "table" and is attached to the hero?

 

If the first, then it is the player that spends the resources that gets to draw the card;

If the second, it is the receving player that draws the card;

 

On the second choice, the player spending the resources gets what? Nothing?

 

I read the Response as being a everyone gets something....

[Nerdmeister 144]

On the second choice, the player spending the resources gets what? Nothing?

 

 

So what if the playing spending the resources gets nothing? That has nothing to do with interpretation. Most attachments played on another player´s characters gives you nothing (besides from the hopefully strategic advantage that you are trying to gain).

And comparing Song of Earendil with Renewed Friendship isn´t really a valid comparison seing as SoE is an attachment and RF is an event. The fact that RF is triggered by the playing of an attachment doesn´t really matter as the card specifically states that it targets the other player.

In terms of rules interpretation SoE does indeed compare much better with Rider of the Mark.

[richsabre 358]

i shall send a request to caleb just to be sure

rich

[Olorin93 204]

Would be interesting to hear a ruling on this. Also curious about the main effect of this card. I include it in my deck in multiplayer games, and it has definitely helped my Gondor and Rohan friends who start out with much higher threat than I. (I often play this, take all their threat for a few rounds and then go back down with Loragorn and Galadhrim cards.) But, as I've understood it, you can only absorb 1 threat from each player. Is this true? I suppose the wording "raise your threat by X to reduce that player's threat by X" would be too easy to exploit. So, if two friends and I fail at questing and must raise our threat by 3, I can raise by 5 maximum and they by 2 minimum?

Edited October 23, 2013 by Olorin93

[richsabre 358]

yes- as it is not X, then no matter how large the threat increase on the other player, you can only take 1 off

i use this card with strider to absorb a tactics partner deck's threat increase each round

 

rich

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Rider of the Mark changes control so the card must specify "after it changes control."

 

Song of Earendil never changes control.  You do not control cards in your hand.  And you cannot trigger responses on cards you do not control.

[CJMatos 54]

Rider of the Mark changes control so the card must specify "after it changes control."

 

Song of Earendil never changes control.  You do not control cards in your hand.  And you cannot trigger responses on cards you do not control.

 

Sorry but your wrong about a player not controlling the cards in his hand...

 

From CoreSet Rules (pag. 25) under tittle Control and Ownership

 

 

"A player “owns” his heroes and the cards that he has chosen for the player deck he is playing. A player “controls” all cards that he owns, unless another player or the encounter deck takes control of the card through a game effect. Any time a card leaves play, it reverts to its owner’s hand, deck, or discard pile (as directed by the effect forcing the card out of play).

 

(...)

 

When a player plays an attachment card, he has the option of giving control of that card to another player by attaching the card to one of that player’s characters. Players always assume control of attachments that have been played on their characters. If control of that character changes, so does the control of any attachments on that character."

 

By this rules, i say, again, that, IMO, the sequence is:

 

1- Choose card to play;

2- Pay cost;

3- Card enters play;

4- Choose wich player gets the control (in attachments);

5- Attach card to a character (spirit hero in case of SoE)

 

So, the player who can trigger the 1st response is the player that plays the card.

 

But let's wait for official rulling...

[richsabre 358]

caleb's ruling (in short it is the player who gets the card, draws the card)

Hi Richard,
A card does not enter play until after its costs have been paid. Once the card enters the game in its appropriate game state, then it has entered play. For example, once you pay the cost for Song of Earendil and you have attached it to a hero, then it has entered play.
At that time, the player who controls the hero it is attached to will control the attachment. Therefore, the player who can trigger its response is the player who controls the hero it is attached to. In other words, if you play it on your friend's hero, your friend gets the card draw.
Cheers,
Caleb

 

thanks caleb

rich

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

So when a shadow effect says "discard an attachment you control," are you discarding cards from your hand?

[Mndela 422]

Wow, great answers, GrandSpleen.

 

And all the people who has posted here, interesting words all, thanks to all.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Mndela

[CJMatos 54]

So when a shadow effect says "discard an attachment you control," are you discarding cards from your hand?

 

Good question....

 

I've only quoted the rules, but i stand corrected with the rulling from Caleb.