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First experiences and questions!

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Ceridan13,

 

     Unless I'm not completely correct in this process, the placement f the first chit on the "surging" gate is one of convention,. not a rule...but, suffice it to say that I know of no game in which I've played at game stores, Arkham Nights, etc. that we dind't place the first chit on the "surging" gate.

 

     As to the placement, I distribute to every open gate and if, upon returning to the gates open in Arkham, I've already exceeded the Monster Limit, the next chit goes to the Outskirts, even if I haven't exhausted the pile of monster chits which "surged" from the gate.

 

Your reputation is just fine ~ lively debate is what we encourage...again, at the end of the day, Julia, you, and I may play differently, but by-and-large, not in a fundamentally different way.

 

Cheers,
Joe

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Thank you, Joe and Julia,

 

I also went through BGG and the answers are absolutely the same - you decide the gates, the order and then randomly pull chips one at a time and put them on a gate in the abovementioned order. That means - my initial understanding of the MS rule war correct, so I am reliefed to see that others do it the same way.

 

And yet I can't but mention that this rule is only the interpretation on the Rule Book, which, unfortunately, doesn't provide enough information allowing players to resolve MS in any way they see fit... Those who want to get an easier game can chose destination gate for a chip after looking at it and they will not break a single AH rule, I think.

 

Or is there any official clarification that was not included in the FAQ that I am not aware of?

 

Mike

Edited by ceridan13

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Mike,

 

     You're spot-on...there are a number of ways in which you can play the game and not necessarily 'violate' the rules.  You'll always have some subset of "dyed in the wool" adherents to the rules and will use the most conservative interpretation...or as we say, "Arkham's Razor' to decide what's the worst cast for the Investigator.  Then there's a wide spectrum of other possibilities to which I subscribe, in some manner, say for gaining "Clue" tokens.  I'm not of the opinion that if a Clue token appears during the Mythos Phase in exactly the spot where the Investigator is located that they'll need to wait until the end of the next Movement Phase to acquire it...no, AH is far too fluid of a game for that type of treatment.  If it arrives, take it, and go!

 

     One of the truly remarkable things about this game, is that while the rules among the various expansions, coupled with the FAQ, easily exceeds 100 pages, there's still plenty of room to maneuver and find the game that's right for you.

 

Cheers,

Joe

Edited by The Professor

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I'm not of the opinion that if a Clue token appears during the Mythos Phase in exactly the spot where the Investigator is located that they'll need to wait until the end of the next Movement Phase to acquire it...no, AH is far too fluid of a game for that type of treatment.  If it arrives, take it, and go!

Joe, that's actually the way it has to be played! :) It's in the FAQ:

 

Q: When does an investigator pick up Clue tokens on the board?

A: Investigators pick up Clue tokens in only two cases:

1.During the Movement Phase, if an investigator ends his movement in an Arkham location or street area containing Clue tokens, he picks them up after evading or combating any monsters in the same location or area. Investigators cannot pick up Clue tokens from a location or street area and then continue moving.

2.During the Mythos Phase, when a Clue token is placed in the same location as one or more investigators, one of them may immediately pick it up. If they cannot agree who gets the Clue token, the first player decides.

Note that investigators do not pick up any Clue tokens when they are sent to a location with a Clue token during the Upkeep Phase, the Arkham Encounters Phase, or the Other World Encounters Phase.

Edited by Julia

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Mike,

yes, you're correct when you say:

 

3) You say, that I will have to place 1st monster on Woods. But, tbh, I disagree. The rules say, that I can't place more monsters on other gates compared to initial MS gate. But nothing about placing my first chip there. So I can (before drawing) choose to put 1st monster on Graveyard, 2nd on Woods anв 3rd on Black Cave. The Unnamable will get 0 due to ML.

 

The point is that you may not choose a solution where the Woods don't get a monster. But indeed, you can decide to place the 1st  monster on the Graveyard, the 2nd on the Black Cave, the 3rd one on the Woods. But it's also true you can't place 1 monster on the Graveyard, 1 on the Black Cave and 1 on the Unnamable and nothing on the Woods, because the Woods was the surging gate. So, the convention is to put the first monster on the surging gate, to be sure not to forget it. You'll see with an extended board due to expansions and several gates open, and maybe some monsters here and there already on gates that it's possible to resolve the surge and then asking "did I put a monster on that surging gate?", so it's easier if you start with the surging gate. Nonetheless, your interpretation on this point is totally coherent with the rules.

 

I don't get the point you raised on your point number 4. Honestly, I don't see a conflict: rules say no gate can have more monsters than the surging, so Woods must be chosen in your example. Additionally, this line in the rules (pag. 9): "The players must make this decision before monsters have been drawn from the cup" suggests me that you may not draw from the cup, look at the chit and decide where the monster has to go. You go with "the next one is for the Graveyard", you draw the monster and you place it. The other way round seems totally unfair to me: it's way too easy with investigators on gates waiting to seal to go for a "look, a Cultist! This one's for Gloria's gate! Hey, a Stationary monster! Lovely, Devil Reef is open and this guy here won't enter the vortex".

 

Finally, we cannot pretend FFG to hire lawyers to write their rulebooks. First of all, because if they did, nobody will be able to understand what's written :P and more seriously: it's a game. Let's try to understand the way it works, and play accordingly. Rules for monster surges are pretty sound and clear: you have X monsters to be divided among Y gates, you decide what to put where before drawing, you proceed in putting monsters on the board until you reach the ML. End of the story. If I had to lawyer the rule, I'd say it's not stated anywhere you are not allowed to draw a monster, look at it, and if you don't like it, put it back in the bag. But that's no Arkham any longer. Not the way I understand Arkham, anyhow.

 

Last line: you're totally not an unpleasant guy. We had ONE unpleasant guy in the past (he was banned something like 20 times, or so), and we all remember him very well. For the rest, you have your right to ask as many questions as you wish, and to discuss our opinion as long as you wish, there is no harm in this (actually, it's a good way to see if our knowledge of the game is so sound as we believe it is, so thanks!). And in case you push the limit, hey, don't worry. And don't worry about that knocking on your door you may hear sometimes. Dark Youngs use to bash down the door after a while, so we'll get you anyway :kiss:

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Julia, I have to disagree :) with this one particular statement:

 

"I don't get the point you raised on your point number 4. Honestly, I don't see a conflict: rules say no gate can have more monsters than the surging, so Woods must be chosen in your example. Additionally, this line in the rules (pag. 9): "The players must make this decision before monsters have been drawn from the cup" suggests me that you may not draw from the cup, look at the chit and decide where the monster has to go. You go with "the next one is for the Graveyard", you draw the monster and you place it".

 

More precicely I disagree that that line: "The players must make this decision before monsters have been drawn from the cup" suggests me that you may not draw from the cup, look at the chit and decide where the monster has to go".

 

By "this decision" the rule book clearly points to the previously stated: "...players should decide where monsters will be placed". So, as I see it, you only decide where you gonna place them, not the order in which you gonna place them. That said, when I draw 1st chip I am obliged to put it on one of the gates previously agreed, but which one? You have to decide now, but since nothing forbids looking at the chip you can decide where the chip goes after looking at it.

 

Again, I fully agree with you that thematicaly and logicaly the abovementioned way of resolving MS is a cheat - by no way unvestigators should have control over which monsters are drawn through the gates. Its just that I feel like there is a glitch in the rules that can be frustrating for new players, who, hopefully, will come here looking for the answer.

 

Mike

Edited by ceridan13

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Ah, enough with the boring stuff! Here is a true newby question:

What happens if I have a Maniac monster trophy and level 6 Terror track hits? All maniacs get Endless ability. But Endless means that they cannot be claimed as a trophy, so I should be able to keep mine, right?

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Yes, what is dead may not be dead, but what is trophied remained a trophy. You've read the Endless ability correctly.

 

Additionally, remember that environments or other game effects influencing the toughness of monsters do count also for the trophies (in case you want to spend them)

 

As for the previous point... glad that, although we perceive the rules clearly in a different way, at least we agree on the point that looking at the chits would be cheating ;-) this said, feel free to play the way you are more comfy with :)

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Julia,

 

     Right!  Thanks for the FAQ post...I used an example which was actually supported by the FAQ.  A better example might be a Clue token added to a location with an Investigator at the beginning of the round due to a Visions of Hypnos card...again, I allow my Investigators to grab-and-go.

 

Ciao,

Joe

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My problem is - I don't feel free when I play my way, I want to play it the "right way" :)

 

 

There is one more thing I can remember now, where rules can be exploited to "cheat".

For example you choose to encounter Man in Black while playing Harvey. In this case every failed dice is a 1 Sanity loss. The card doesn't say "They roll dice equal to their current Sanity and lose Sanity equal to the numver of failed dice".

Well, you see what I am implying.

Or maybe I am just a crazy ex-MTG player... most likely.

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My problem is - I don't feel free when I play my way, I want to play it the "right way" :)

 

 

There is one more thing I can remember now, where rules can be exploited to "cheat".

For example you choose to encounter Man in Black while playing Harvey. In this case every failed dice is a 1 Sanity loss. The card doesn't say "They roll dice equal to their current Sanity and lose Sanity equal to the numver of failed dice".

Well, you see what I am implying.

Or maybe I am just a crazy ex-MTG player... most likely.

 

This one was covered by Kevin Wilson:

 

4. Does the Professor's Strong Mind ability work against the likes of the Mythos card "The Man in Black", where one must roll a die for every point of Sanity and lose it on a failure? The same question applies to the Gangster's Strong Body ability and the Mythos card "Blood Magic".

Yes. In this case, the Sanity loss isn't described as a cost in any fashion. That is, you aren't paying the Sanity in order to mess around with the Man in Black. Instead, dealing with the Man in Black causes you to lose Sanity.

 

(so, I don't see any way you can cheat or mess up with the rules)

Edited by Julia

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Julia, I am sorry, I think I didn't make myself clear this time. 

My question is not a loss/cost one. That I understand fully.

The thing is: there is a difference between loosing 5 sanity and loosing 1 sanity 5 times. But again, this is my understanding form my previous (loooooooong time ago) MTG experience.

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Ilove horror and some of the hp lovecraft movies. I just baught call of cthulu game and waiting on it to show up in the mail.

 

is there any advice for a novice on here and in the game. I have no idea what AO means. Also id like to pick up some of the mini pieces before I play does anyone know the 16 investigators that are in the base game. and what key monsters I should get. Please feel free to PM me I can use any advice and help. I added Mandy to the top of my list to buy.

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AO is Ancient One. Check out the Arkham Horror Wiki elsewhere for the figures you might need. Welcome to he asylum, or the carnival take your pick :-)

Best advice to a novice I have: clues and time must never be wasted.

Ceridan13, you need to define, for yourself, what the 'right' way means in this, is it some strict linguistic definition of weasely words (to which you will never receive a full complement of satisfactory clarification) , or how most of us play? I would recommend common sense here, and do it the way most of the people I know do, and I think most people here too - which is to say, Julia is right :-)

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Dj, thanks for feedback! I fully agree with Julia's ruling on MS problem. I have the same understanding on how this is supposed to work. But I think that every case is different and sometimes I would rather stick to the rules and my own interpretation and thematic judgement rather than following advices of even most experienced of players. For example, my question about Find Gate Spell being cast without an approptiate gate - almost everyone ssems to agree on one pov, but I am not convinced and, with all due respect to the experience of these players, I decided to follow my rules and my team agreed with me.

Long story short - I am always ready to follow a good advise, but sometimes I am too stubborn to do it :)

 

Gwen, nice to see a newcomer just like me! The best advise for a novice - read the Rule Book and FAQ after each of your 5 first games. Every time you do it you will find something new :) Also, look through some tutorial videos on youtube. 

Check the files section at BGG here to download short rules or flowcharts to help you out during the game.

You can also read some of the newby mistakes here.

Also, choose easy AO for your first games - like Azathoth

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Fair point Ceridan13 :-) ( and that's a lovely number!). Last I checked, nobody is here to strong arm anyone (well there have been a few who needed some severe limb spindling and even severance on some really important things they insisted on continuing on doing and one of them had to be helped to stop breathing, but we don't evoke his name round these parts). But my point wasn't prompted by the surge thing, which is a point I agree with Julia on simply because it is more sensible to my addled old brain, and much more by the hair splitting over the black man, where you seemed to be sensing that was kind of ridiculous yourself, a holdover from your ccg interest, did I misunderstand? If I did understand you, you were wondering if you seemed to be going too far in that direction, and I have to say yes. As a long time card player (my collection does not include MtG, but it covers VtES, Rage, deciphers Star Trek and LotR, ffgs CoC ccg and lcg, Mythos and a few others) I know how haggling over tiny snips of printed text becomes part of the gaming culture and kind of spreads to other games where it becomes an impediment to the player, and I perceive that here.

AH will never receive a card by card clarifications and errata file, and it really doesn't need it, as I'm sure you agree, but it appears you are making complications that do not exist for anyone else.

So, like I said, I am all for you doing your own creative thing, I just think it needs a different approach in AH than you might be used to and that not perceiving this now might frustrate you throughout your time playing and time posting here, because your haggling over what most see as an obvious instruction is probably puzzling to many people here. No offense intended at all and apologies if any is taken, just that I felt the need to point this out for you.

Edit: One more thing comes to mind about the surge and other issues the community might seem to have an unwarranted and mysterious consensus on - I was here when Kevin made posts (AH designer) and he stated his method of surges way back, but like many of those early posts, nobody preserved its wisdom for descendants - they were wiped from existence like 1960s Doctor Who. But some of us remember the original transmissions :-)

Edited by dj2.0
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Dj, no offese taken and thank you for the advise!

 

I had one more question reagrding the game - a couple of days ago we had a game with Mandy and I wonder if I understand her ability correct:

Once per turn one player may reroll failed dice rolled for a single skill check. Even after activating Mandy's ability I still can roll extra dice for clue tokens. Also, I can first try to roll a couple of extra dice using my clue tokens when I fail a check, after that get Mandy's help and if I still fail I can keep adding dice for clue tokens to the results that I had after re-rolling aloowed by Mandy.

Example: having Luck 5 I try topass Luck -2 [2] check. I roll 3 dice getting 2, 2 and 3. I decide to use 1 of my clue tokens an roll an extra die. I roll 1. Crap. I ask Mandy for help, luckily she didn't you her ability this turn yet. Now I get to re-roll all 4 dice. I get 2,4,1 and 5. ****, I still need 1 more success. So I discard another clue token, roll 1 more die and get 6. At last!! Check passed.

 

I don't see any rules vialation here, do you?

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I believe you can't do this. Explanation:

 

- core rules, pag. 13: you can add clues after making a skill check to add dice on a 1-1 basis

- Mandy's ability: it activates after a skill check is made to re-roll the dice that did not score any success

 

Mandy's ability concerns a re-roll of dice, not rechecking the skill. Hence, Mandy's enabled roll is not a skill check. Hence, you can't add dice after using Mandy

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Hmmm, interresting :)

 

But if you look at it this way: I am making a skill check. When I use Mandy's ability I am not re-rolling the check, I am re-rolling some dice within my initial skill check - I fully agree with you in that. 

But since I am still "within" my initial skill check (I simply altered some dice numbers already rolled) why can't I add a few more dice via clue tokens to my check?

 

At the same time, Mandy's ability says "after any investigator makes skill check". That means the check is over and I can't add more dice... I think you are right... Anyway, Mandy's ability deserves a nerf :)

Edited by ceridan13

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Aye, that's the point, you're not within the original skill check. The skill check starts when you roll the dice, and ends when you say "ok, no more clues to be spent on this one". Then Mandy's ability is triggered (after the check). You could argue "clues are spent after the check either", and then I'll answer "yeah, they can be spent after a check, but not after an investigator's ability is triggered because an ability triggered is not a skill check" :)

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And then I'll go on: "True, ability triggered is not a skill check, but rules do not specify that abilities cannot be used within a skill check or that using ability actually ends skill check. On contrary, the rules provide, that you can add dice by discarding clue tokens after the skill check. So if we consider, that Mandy's ability is a part of skill check, then you actually can keep adding more dice to the roll".

 

But I am a polite person and wouldn't keep arguing, right?

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Also, Skids's ability proves that additional dice may be added to the roll after using character's special ability. 

Edited by ceridan13

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"True, ability triggered is not a skill check, but rules do not specify that abilities cannot be used within a skill check

 

And neither they say you may add dice because you fancy to do so, but I don't sense this is a valid argument either.

 

Really, I don't understand if you ask for answers or just to lawyer about rules :laughter: Nevermind, stupid me since I keep on answering :D And clearly, this is the last time I answer one of your questions :D No time for playing these games :D

 

I appreciate your total devotion to the English language and its implication, though, but as Dj said, it's not the proper arena to host a debate competition. Good luck with the rules then :)

Edited by Julia
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