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FAQ and Tournament Rules updated! 10/16/13

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Q: Can a card effect be used as many times as desired when a ship has the opportunity to use it?

A: No. A card effect can be used once per opportunity. For example, the opportunity on the Luke Skywalker Ship card is “when defending,” so he can only use his ability once against each enemy attack.

 

 

This still leaves the grey area of taking 3 stress tokens all at once, all during the same step, and having Yorr strip them off to give your ship 3 extra attack dice (with Opportunist) or force 3 rerolls (with Elusiveness).

 

P.S. the value can be from 1 to 4 stress tokens taken but I am picking 3 for arguments sake.

Edited by Sergovan

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Um....if Fel's ability won't trigger with Yorr...then Opportunist nor Elusiveness wouldn't work either with Yorr.

 

Both require the ship to actually get the stress for the ability to trigger....so per the FAQ about Fel/Yorr.  The stress token never makes it to the ship trying to use the ability.  So either Yorr gets the stress and the ability fizzles or the ship recieves the stress and the ability triggers.

Edited by Bjorn Rockfist

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How is that a grey area?  Opportunist gives one die for one stress.  You have one opportunity to use it, you are only allowed to use it once.  Who/what/why the stress is redirected has nothing to do with the ruling that an ability can only be used once for every opportunity.

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The issue with Opportunist was never whether the ship got stressed or not.  It was whether you could activate it multiple times from a single attack.  It's explicitly stated now that you only activate things once per opportunity - so once per attack for Opportunist.

 

Good to have a sorta-answer on dealing damage cards out, even if it's about as clear as the HLC/reroll ruling originally was The inclusion of the Simultaneous Fire example just muddied what could/should be a simple answer.  :(  The Vader ruling actually didn't answer the question of contention.  There was never any debate over whether Vader could destroy himself - that was universally accepted.  The more specific question was whether he could be used if you had only one hull remaining, and that remains vague.  So, sorta half-answered.  Given the "Weird but whatever" way the HLC/reroll thing fell out I'm inclined to go with the damage card answer meaning that he does suffer the two damage and can trigger.  Of course, I have no idea why you can't use him after a simultaneous fire attack - the only reason I can think of invokes the same "immediately removed" as standard destruction, so who knows?  But pending a more meaningful clarification, I'm good just going with the "if the ship is alive, Vader's valid".  Except in a simultaneous fire situation.  Because they said so.

 

The barrel roll/boost ruling on being destroyed if you end up outside the play area, rather than just not being able to perform the maneuver, is interesting.  Would be curious to know how this interacts with the CRA and the "If you can fit you have to do it" requirement.  Is it a legal move?  I'd lean towards thinking it is, which means you'd need to be very careful calling a barrel roll near the edge.

 

Always nice to see one or two more pretty direct contradictions - "treat a maneuver as white" from AR means that it never counts as red, but "treat it as straight" means Nien can't affect it, so it doesn't always count as straight there.

 

There were some nice core statements to be had - the one use per trigger condition, and the dial reveal, the duplicate upgrade/damage actions...  Nice to know Gunner lets things trigger off both, although it would have been nice to see the timing detailed as well.

 

Always nice to have answers, but sometimes it feels like FFG is going out of their way to intentionally obscure the underlying rules system.

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BUHALLIN WROTE: There was never any debate over whether Vader could destroy himself - that was universally accepted.  The more specific question was whether he could be used if you had only one hull remaining, and that remains vague.  So, sorta half-answered.  

 

 

Seems to me that it has been answered. If a ship has 1 hull remaining when Crewman Vader is used, it would be destroyed, correct?

 

From the FAQ:

 

Q: If a ship equipped with Darth Vader would be

destroyed by using Darth Vader’s ability, can

it use that ability?

A: Yes

 

I'm sure that the logic behind it is that taking damage is not an activation cost. You don't "pay" for Vader's ability with damage. You just suffer that damage, like all other damage. (If you had to lose 2 hull points to activate the ability, that would be a different story.)

 

I think the reason Crewman Vader's ability doesn't trigger after a Simultaneous Attack is because the attacks are performed simultaneously in "mind's eye" terms, and we only resolve them at different times on the tabletop for practical reasons. Damage from simultaneous attacks should be fully resolved before the attacks are completely performed. Vader's ability doesn't trigger immediately after the simultaneous attacks because he's no longer in play.

Edited by DagobahDave

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Good to have a sorta-answer on dealing damage cards out, even if it's about as clear as the HLC/reroll ruling originally was The inclusion of the Simultaneous Fire example just muddied what could/should be a simple answer.  :(  The Vader ruling actually didn't answer the question of contention.  There was never any debate over whether Vader could destroy himself - that was universally accepted.  The more specific question was whether he could be used if you had only one hull remaining, and that remains vague.

 

What is not clear?

 

 

Q: If a ship suffers more damage or critical

damage than is needed to destroy it, are

the excess Damage cards still assigned to

that ship?

A: Yes. This means that a ship still in the play area

due to the Simultaneous Attack Rule can be

affected by additional faceup Damage cards. (p3 FAQ & errata)

 

 

coupled with

 

Q: If a ship equipped with Darth Vader would be

destroyed by using Darth Vader’s ability, can

it use that ability?

A: Yes

 

 

Is very, very clear to me. Furthermore they even clarify any potential issues

 

Q: If a ship equipped with Darth Vader has

a number of Damage cards that equals

or exceeds its hull value, but is not yet

destroyed because of the simultaneous

attack rule, can it use Darth Vader’s ability?

A: No.

 

 

I don't see where the confusion rises from.

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I think the reason Crewman Vader's ability doesn't trigger after a Simultaneous Attack is because the attacks are performed simultaneously in "mind's eye" terms, and we only resolve them at different times on the tabletop for practical reasons. Damage from simultaneous attacks should be fully resolved before the attacks are completely performed. Vader's ability doesn't trigger immediately after the simultaneous attacks because he's no longer in play.

Mind's eye aside, simultaneous attacks aren't really.  It changes when ships are removed, but that's it.  And when they're removed, they go away along with all their abilities.  They don't stay for the full PS.  For instance, say Tycho kills Howlrunner while Fett is close.  If you fire with Howlrunner first, she'll be removed immediately after her shot, and Fett won't get the reroll.  If, instead, you fire with Fett first, Howlrunner will still be in play, and you can use her reroll.  You'd then fire with Howlrunner, and she'd be removed.  Similarly, if Kath fires at, say, Mauler with Opportunist and manages to give him a stress, Mauler wouldn't be able to use Opportunist even though the shots are "simultaneous".

 

The issues I'm still a bit unsure of:

 

- If the "deal out damage cards" is universal, why mention Simultaneous Fire?  It makes the answer focus on that, which is something I never doubted.  But what about if you're NOT in a Simultaneous Fire situation?  Including Simultaneous Fire in the answer introduces some uncertainty as to the scope of the answer.

 

- At least for me personally, there was never a question of whether Vader would destroy his ship if it only had 1 hull.  The question was whether you would get the benefit from doing so, since you didn't actually suffer two damage.

 

- So if Vader can be used and get full benefit, what does that make the definition of "suffering damage"?

 

- Vader via Simultaneous Fire: The question here is why.  If the ship is in play, and can take damage, it should be able to activate Vader.  So why can't it?  Is it because the ship is immediately removed, which takes it off the board before Vader activates?  And if the ship is removed immediately after firing, and that goes before Vader can activate, why does the normally immediate removal NOT stop the damage dealing process?

 

That's my best guess at the moment - after fire, the immediate destruction of the ship means it's removed before Vader can activate.  That would mean that Gunner should still be able to take his shot, since it's immediate as well you could choose the order.

 

So the "why" of it actually has some potential precedent to it.  I'm not confused as to how to play Vader - I'm confused as to WHY he plays like that, and what the underlying model is that makes it play like that.

 

Unfortunately, it's becoming increasingly obvious that there either isn't a robust underlying model, or the devs are perfectly willing to break it when it suits them rather than bother with errata to keep it stable.  Given the relatively limited number of abilities in X-wing, the count of rulings that clearly contradict what is printed is actually rather impressive.

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- At least for me personally, there was never a question of whether Vader would destroy his ship if it only had 1 hull.  The question was whether you would get the benefit from doing so, since you didn't actually suffer two damage.

 

Q: If a ship suffers more damage or critical

damage than is needed to destroy it, are

the excess Damage cards still assigned to

that ship?

A: Yes. This means that a ship still in the play area

due to the Simultaneous Attack Rule can be

affected by additional faceup Damage cards. (p3 FAQ & errata)

 

 

Mmm... I get what you mean, but looking at how the question is formulated, it seems to clearly imply that ships can actually suffer more damage than needed to destroy them. Thus, Vader ends suffering all damage from its own ability, even 'at 1 hull'...  Unless you want to argue that the FAQ answer is based on a erroneously formulated question to begin with. So, even considering Vader's self-damage as a 'prerequisite' and not a 'consecuence', it would end fulfilling it anyways.

 

Note again that the question is not if ships can suffer more damage than needed to destroy them or not (The question assumes that they can), but what happens to the 'excess' cards (They have to be assigned regardless).

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How is that a grey area?  Opportunist gives one die for one stress.  You have one opportunity to use it, you are only allowed to use it once.  Who/what/why the stress is redirected has nothing to do with the ruling that an ability can only be used once for every opportunity.

 

The grey area is what do they mean by once? Do they mean I can only take 1 stress token when I activate it, or I can only activate it (by declaring I am taking 3 stress tokens) once.

 

I had pegged two possibilities originaly. One was that you could take stress tokens individually, one at a time, by activating the ability over and over until stopped, all during the same stoppage of play. That is no longer valid as per the new FAQ. The game could have really dragged if this version was allowed so I am glad it is not.

 

But the second, taking multiple tokens in one shot, thus activating the ability only once during a stoppage in play, isn't clear.

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It looks like Vader was meant to have a cost paid to use his ability and that cost involved risk. The risk of blowing up your own ship or at least causing its early demise. If the ship he is on is destroyed, then there is no longer any risk in taking the damage to activate his ability, so no reason not to use Vader. I think that is why they ruled the FAQ the way they did.

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How is that a grey area?  Opportunist gives one die for one stress.  You have one opportunity to use it, you are only allowed to use it once.  Who/what/why the stress is redirected has nothing to do with the ruling that an ability can only be used once for every opportunity.

The grey area is what do they mean by once? Do they mean I can only take 1 stress token when I activate it, or I can only activate it (by declaring I am taking 3 stress tokens) once.

 

I had pegged two possibilities originaly. One was that you could take stress tokens individually, one at a time, by activating the ability over and over until stopped, all during the same stoppage of play. That is no longer valid as per the new FAQ. The game could have really dragged if this version was allowed so I am glad it is not.

 

But the second, taking multiple tokens in one shot, thus activating the ability only once during a stoppage in play, isn't clear.

 

If Opportunist said "you may receive X stress tokens to role X additional attack dice" it would work as you sudgest. How ever that is not what opportunist says. it say "you may receive 1 stress token to role 1 addtional attack die".

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The grey area is what do they mean by once? Do they mean I can only take 1 stress token when I activate it, or I can only activate it (by declaring I am taking 3 stress tokens) once.

I don't see how once can be considered a grey area. It's a pretty clear term. You can use it one time, to get 1 die, and 1 stress token.

As was said above, the card doesn't say X dice for X tokens. You can only process the effect of this card one time, so there's no way you can get 3 stress tokens in the first place.

On a different note, I'm so very, very happy to to see them release another FAQ rather then waiting for some big event to release it.

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Mmm... I get what you mean, but looking at how the question is formulated, it seems to clearly imply that ships can actually suffer more damage than needed to destroy them. Thus, Vader ends suffering all damage from its own ability, even 'at 1 hull'...  Unless you want to argue that the FAQ answer is based on a erroneously formulated question to begin with. So, even considering Vader's self-damage as a 'prerequisite' and not a 'consecuence', it would end fulfilling it anyways.

My issue with this is that the term "suffer" for damage is ambiguous, or possibly overloaded.  There are some places where it is used in a past-tense as a requirement ("The ship must suffer all normal damage before suffering any critical damage").  So that's not an "attempt" sort of a thing, it has to actually have happened and completed.

 

<shrug>  It's largely academic.  I just keep hoping for more consistency than it seems we're likely to get.

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On a different note, I'm so very, very happy to to see them release another FAQ rather then waiting for some big event to release it.

Yeah, I'm glad they didn't release it two weeks before the World Championships or anything - waiting for a big event like that would have sucked ;)

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Yeah, I'm glad they didn't release it two weeks before the World Championships or anything - waiting for a big event like that would have sucked ;)

Gah... Yeah your right, Worlds is right around the corner isn't it. Completely forgot about that.

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Um....if Fel's ability won't trigger with Yorr...then Opportunist nor Elusiveness wouldn't work either with Yorr.

as5U99a.pngwaiivCR.png

 

Check em' again. Different triggers. When Attacking vs When you receive a stress token.

 

I guess so.  I just figured if Fel wouldn't get a focus if he hands the stress off to Yorr then if you tried to use Opportunist and hand the stress off to Yorr then you wouldn't get the extra die.  At least that is how I saw it.

Edited by Bjorn Rockfist

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