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GlassJaw

YT-1300 + Gunner = OP?

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A recent point of contention has been the YT-1300 + Gunner combo, especially in dual YT lists with some Han and Chewie.  Since a lot of the Wave 1 ships are still impossible to come by, Falcons are more prevalent.  It has become a combo that many people don't want to play against because it isn't fun (for those that are familiar with Warmachine, it's the X-Wing equivalent of eHaley, eGaspy, or Denny).  

There has even been some talk of house-ruling Gunner and that Gunner is undercosted at 5 points.  Some have also wondered if the phrasing of a "miss" on the Gunner card will be addressed (or changed) in a upcoming FAQ.  For example, changing the wording of "miss" to instead mean not rolling any HIT or CRIT symbols or rolling all blanks.

I'm still relatively new to the game and while I acknowledge it is a powerful combination, I don't feelit is OP or needs to be nerfed.

Thoughts?
 

 

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It doesn't make sense as written, but some things don't make sense either. A thing that would make the YT more balanced:

 

1. Use the base stats of the ORM and then have the MF title give the bonus stats

2. All turret weapons (Ion turret, YT turret, Blaster Turret) that allow firing out of your front arc requires a target lock on the defender if the defender is not in your firing arc

3. When firing in the front arc, gunner lets you shoot a primary and secondary weapon instead of a miss/hit scenario

4. No hard 1 turn speeds for the YT

 

But, everything else aside, it isn't THAT broken. They still have a limited damage output scenario and some lists can absolutely crush it given the correct conditions. Most people don't know how to fight against them so they end up losing. 

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I think it's one of those lists that just makes a below average player or an average player get a better win %.  Look at Tourny results lately and you don't see single or dual YT's taking anything big.  I think I've only lost to one once and that was just the dice.  They are tough, can be really tough in a timed game if you're not careful but in your typical fight facing an equally skilled opponent the numbers just aren't on their side long term. 

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I don't think it's that broken.  It certainly helps against high agility ships, but against B-Wings or Y-Wings, you're going to get hit anyway.  And you can, as the defender, choose to not spend focus/evade to take the hit and not let a more damaging gunner role through.

 

If I were to make any house rules, I think I'd limit one large ship per side, but that's mostly because I hate taking on multiple firesprays and stink at flying them myself.

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Thoughts?

My thought is, that a YT-1300 + Gunner costs a ton of points. So it better be able to preform well. 5 points is nearly half a academy pilot after all...

The only thing Gunner really does is give another chance at getting a hit. So when you have Han, for example, there's a decent chance you may never actually use Gunner in a match.

Also the YT can hit at most 1 target per turn, with 3 to 4 dice.

Frankly anyone who thinks the YT + Gunner is OP'ed is simply wrong. It's a good combo but not a great one. The thing it does best is as was said above, allow below avg players to play better.

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Yep I always give a YT-1300 to starting players for their first game. Helps them a lot, but I wouldn't say it's broken in the long term.

If you're all new, I would maybe limit the use of YTs while you're getting used to things. They are not broken, but do get in the way a bit when trying to learn maneuvering and positioning. After you get the hang of snub-fighters it makes fighting the YT easier.

Edited by Rodent Mastermind

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2 words: Focus Fire

 

I've played against a 2 YT double Gunner build, and I almost won with a BH, Bomber, Howlrunner, and Academy Tie. The thing that evens the playing field is the 1 agility for the YT. Yes, the YT will hurt you each round, but it only hits 1 ship. I wouldn't say this build is OP, you just have to know how to play against it. 

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The 360 degree arc makes it easy for the YT to attack every turn, but at the same time running a unique YT means that half your squad gets to land an attack at most once per turn. It's a tradeoff.

 

I would point out, though, that I think the key to running one or more YT's is to avoid firing arcs like the plague. Fly around to the sides and rear of opponent ships where you can still attack and they can't. For this reason, I would prefer to put an Engine Upgrade on my YT before I'd drop the points on a Gunner.

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The 360 degree arc makes it easy for the YT to attack every turn, but at the same time running a unique YT means that half your squad gets to land an attack at most once per turn. It's a tradeoff.

 

I would point out, though, that I think the key to running one or more YT's is to avoid firing arcs like the plague. Fly around to the sides and rear of opponent ships where you can still attack and they can't. For this reason, I would prefer to put an Engine Upgrade on my YT before I'd drop the points on a Gunner.

Quoted for truth, Hans will be hitting most turns anyway, so I normally go with Engine Upgrade too. Due to his PS9 allowing you to see where the opponent is going to move, it's amazing how many shots this will avoid over a game.

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If I could make one change to this game, I would do something like limit the yt1300 turret to range 2 like the turret upgrades on the ywing/hwk.  It could still keep its main firing arc at range 3, which would give the YT1300 pilot at least some motivation to actually do some maneuvering while also giving opposing fighters at least one way to maneuver out of its firing arc.

 

I have no real concerns for game balance but it is definitely a lot less fun to fight against yt1300 lists (especially dual falcons) when much of the tactical maneuvering that the game is built around becomes meaningless

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HSF may not be OP but sure comes close. I ran a tournament last week and a friend wanted to play but hadn't bought any pieces and had only played in a couple of demo's I had ran earlier in the month. It was a 66 point build so I set him up with a 66 Points HSF. ( I think it was Chewie, Luke, Expose, Engine Upgrade and Falcon). Lets just say he did very well in five games, serously frustrated some experienced players and I've now created a monster becuse he just bought his first ship... a Falcon.

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Isn't that the point of the turret though? To take away the maneuvering of the nimble imperial ships? Rebels have had turrets since wave one. Granted it is an ion turret but set up correctly your x-wings would pop off that ioned tie in the next round. The YT-100 is no more op than a B-wing with an Autoblaster or a seven tie swarm.

The gunner is so good because it either forces an opponent to burn a token or or eat some damage. Also if you go with a tricked out YT-100 then you are looking at the most a three ship list. Han's ability is arguably one of the best abilities in the game. That being said there are counters to it, elusiveness and sensor jammer for starters. Also don't forget dark curse.

Ithe YT has one evade dice. Four squints flying at it using a chain effect of swarm tactics to all shoot before or at the same time has a chance to down a YT in two turns possibly one if you get some good crits. A swarm can bump those big ships with ease and deny them actions making the yt's shooting farless effective.

No it is not OP. If it was it would have won at gencon.

This rant being said, I still fly a YT when I play. Do I think it is a forgiving ship for beginners. Yes. However put that ship in the hands of someone who has been playing since the game came out, who understands how to fly ALL the other ships in the game and yea it is frustrating to fly against. So I do understand your frustration but you have to have a good game plan for that turret.

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Yeah, I had a bit of trouble against HSF at the beginning of it's inception, but I've got it pretty much figured out now. Just like what Bulwark said, take out the escorts quick, and the Falcon itself will be easy pickings.

 

Han with marksmanship and a gunner can be pretty mean, but I've learned to bump the Falcon to prevent it from using marksmanship and to eat the hits from the first volley of fire so you don't have to go through the second volley of fire.

 

I can't tell you how many times I get hit 3 times, dodge two and withhold using my evade or focus much to my opponents chagrin because he doesn't get to shoot at me again with his gunner. I can then use that evade or focus token against one of the Falcon's escorts attacks (your opponent really should be concentrating his fire on downing one target before moving on to the next. If he's spreading out his attacks, that is then to your benifit.)

 

Eat the first hit, it's better than being shot at the second time by the gunner. If you're still losing to HSF, then you haven't learned how to deal with it yet.

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Where I play we often see the han+marksman+gunner combo. I see it as powerful but not broken. Depending on the game I do one of 2 thinks, plink at long range or rush 5 ships into close and hammer. I often win more than I lose against them due to it being far away with 3 shots or it dying on turn 2. With such a load of points in 1 ship it is a big target and a big risk. This means it is not broken. It is powerful and needs addressing, but not broken.

 

I am more scared of advanced torps with a trick to get Focus and lock as I have never seen them hit for less than 5. "What, 1 shot and you needing to roll ALL 3 Evades? On you useful small ship? And all for only 6 points! Best of luck to ya :)"...*grumble-roll-grumble*...:)

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I have found that Gunner on any of the named YT's is overkill from a having it on the ship in the first place and gets used very infrequently. Two YT builds are one of the harder lists in the game, but HSF and 2 X's or Y's are harder still.

 

They are, however, eminently beatable. I have taken both types of list out with dual Firespray lists and with the Vader, Soontir and Turr list variant.

 

3 B-Wings with FCS and HLC make short work of a YT as well.

 

I'd have to say the beauty of this game is no one list is invincible and when you are at a tourney, it's your flying that wins the day as you will pretty much face a squad that your squad will have problems with.

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When it first came out I thought it was a bit OP, but after playing against it a few times it can be taken down.  As mentioned above it can only shoot at one target a turn.

 

Now that Wave three is out I think the Tie Bomber can do alot to neutralize this power build.  This past weekend I was successful at taking down Han twice using this build:

 

Howlrunner w/ Swarm tactics upgrade
Tie Interceptor Alpha SQRN pilot
Tie Bomber Captain Jonus with Swarm tactics, Cluster missiles, Assault Missiles
Tie Bomber Scimitar SDRN Pilot with Cluster Missiles, proton torps and Assault Missiles
 

Keeping the Tie Bombers in close formation and the ability of launching missiles at range 3-2-1 proved pretty effective along with the primary weapons of Howlrunner and Tie Interceptor.  CPT jonus allowing the Scimitar to reroll misses is a big bonus.

 

Then I just had to clean up the misc ships that came along for the ride.  One build was Han fully loaded with Old Crow in support and the other was Han and two B-Wings.  In both cases not alot of agility dice vs. Tie fighters.

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Gunner is the 4th most expensive upgrade in the game. Using him with the most expensive ship in the game gives you a potent combo. However, it is pretty much 2 ships in a 4 ship fleet.

By that I mean you wouldn't be able to use the combos in a regular 3 ship fleet, but can still use two of the 4 from a 4 ship fleet alongside it.

 

Frankly, I think Gunner is deadlier on the Firespray, if for no other reason than that you can run 2 Firesprays with gunner with 24 points left to spare, and it be 3 dice attacks.

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when i run my next  falcon build i have been looking to try expert handling as the is nothing like seeing the  falcon going to be in arc for you and then seeing it roll out of arc,and then shoot you as well at range one :)

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So if falcon+gunner is considered over powered sometimes, what do people think of falcon+luke gunner? And also is it re roll all misses on the dice or is it only if you miss everything... I imagine its the first as it's very expensive.

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It's a new attack if your attack dealt no damage to the enemy ship. That is, if all of the hits/crits you rolled got canceled out by their evasion dice and/or evade tokens, you get to throw down the new attack.

So, yeah, it's even BETTER than you thought, flail3.

 

So if falcon+gunner is considered over powered sometimes, what do people think of falcon+luke gunner? And also is it re roll all misses on the dice or is it only if you miss everything... I imagine its the first as it's very expensive.

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