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Moehowrd67

Doesn't the HWK-290 seem a little small

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I've played Star Wars Saga rpg's for a few years now and recently picked up the HWK-290 for this game so I could use it for scenarios in my rpg campaign. It looked a little small for a light freighter and more like a fighter. So I looked through the sources that I have and I think it should have been issued as a large ship instead of a small one.

 

According to the source material that I have, the HWK-290 should have a crew of two, be able to carry 6 passengers and carry 150 tons of cargo while being slightly faster and more maneuverable than a YT-1300. Like I said, a large ship. I think FFG screwed up on this one. They should have made it a large ship so that both sides could have two large models, two that are fairly common (YT-1300, Lambda) and two that are a bit rarer (HWK-290, Firespray). I know that I would have paid an extra 15 dollars for a mini that more accurately portrays what the Hawk is supposed to capable of.

 

Oh well, I guess I could see if I can put is on a large base when I use it for what I intend it for and use the original base when I play X-Wing on its own but it is still annoying.

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Maybe, but it still seems a bit small for a light freighter.

 

That would be the fault of the original creators though. Too be honest I can see fitting 8 people into something that size though. It would be cramped and uncomfortable but for quick jaunts it would be no worse than a long drive with an overpacked car.

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The HWK first appeared in the Dark Forces PC Game, and it is about right. In that game, it was used for extracting a Rebel Operative and Spy (Kyle Katarn) from missions in hostile territory. So if it was as big as a falcon it wouldn't be much good at being sneaky.

The two pilot crew sit behind each other, and apparently the wookiepedia page is based on some secondary source adding fluff beyond the Lucasarts appearances of the ship. FFG based it on its appearances in video games as created by Lucasarts.

I think it works in this context, as its general size and volume is bigger than most of the other small ships, with the exception of maybe the bomber. And so if we consider it is lighter armed and armoured than the others, there is plausibility for it to haul a small amount of cargo or a few extra people.

I love it, and think it is a fantastically well done model (except that my second one was mounted about 40 degrees off where it should have been).

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The trouble is they didn't make the decision, they just used whatever the Lucas Arts Licensing said was canon, which was presumably taken from the game.  The problem there, of course, is that in games, especially older ones, the size of ships etc vary enormously.  External models rarely match how big the things are inside.  Sounds to me like they've gone with how big the model was from the outside, rather than how big the inside was, which I think would have been a more sensible measure.

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The trouble is they didn't make the decision, they just used whatever the Lucas Arts Licensing said was canon, which was presumably taken from the game.  The problem there, of course, is that in games, especially older ones, the size of ships etc vary enormously.  External models rarely match how big the things are inside.  Sounds to me like they've gone with how big the model was from the outside, rather than how big the inside was, which I think would have been a more sensible measure.

I guess you could say.....   it's not what's on the inside that counts.  

*puts on sunglasses*

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o

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CutawayCrowpaintingfinished.jpg

 

According to LFL the HWK-290 is ~16.5 meters long, the size FFG made the model (at scale).  That's good enough for me.

Well, I just had a quick google, couldn't find any inside pics from the game, so that's fine then (anyone remember the game?). Wherever this “light freighter” designation came from is clearly nonsense though, unless it's a TARDIS.

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CutawayCrowpaintingfinished.jpg

 

According to LFL the HWK-290 is ~16.5 meters long, the size FFG made the model (at scale).  That's good enough for me.

 

Lol! That's actually my cutaway painting:

 

the_incredible_cross_sections_moldy_crow

 

In any case, it was originally supposed to be about ~20 meters long. It got shrunk slightly in Jedi Knight, but contrary to what Mazz0 said, its size remains very consistent in the game, with the cockpit matching almost perfectly to what the size of the ship is supposed to be from shot to shot. There are three instances where you can determine the scale of the ship in JK from its proximity to Jan and Kyle, and they all imply a ship which is about 16 meters long or so.

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CutawayCrowpaintingfinished.jpg

 

According to LFL the HWK-290 is ~16.5 meters long, the size FFG made the model (at scale).  That's good enough for me.

 

Lol! That's actually my cutaway painting:

 

the_incredible_cross_sections_moldy_crow

 

In any case, it was originally supposed to be about ~20 meters long. It got shrunk slightly in Jedi Knight, but contrary to what Mazz0 said, its size remains very consistent in the game, with the cockpit matching almost perfectly to what the size of the ship is supposed to be from shot to shot. There are three instances where you can determine the scale of the ship in JK from its proximity to Jan and Kyle, and they all imply a ship which is about 16 meters long or so.

You don't see the inside in the game then? I was just guessing, didn't mean to imply that I knew anything about this particular ship (I don't think I played Jedi Knight).

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No problem. :)

 

You do see the interior actually. Twice. Here are the first half of the cutscenes (I can't find individual ones):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt5sWET-5Tw

 

If you go to 7:44 in that video, you can see how cramped the cockpit is. It can probably carry about six people, but it's no freighter.

 

At 7:56 you can see that, compared to the Nebulon-B, it's about 1/3 the size of the Millennium Falcon.

 

At 12:50 Kyle and Jan are standing next to the cockpit, and you can see how tiny it is compared to an adult human.

 

The other part I mentioned where you can see the Crow compared to a human is in this video:

 

 

At 10:19 there's a longer scene with Kyle in the cockpit, but it's not as useful as the previous scenes for determining scale.

 

 

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all here, but I did do a lot of research for that cutaway, with the assistance of a handful of dedicate Crow fans, and after working for months to figure out the scale we each came to this conclusion independently.

Edited by Millennium Falsehood

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CutawayCrowpaintingfinished.jpg

 

According to LFL the HWK-290 is ~16.5 meters long, the size FFG made the model (at scale).  That's good enough for me.

 

Lol! That's actually my cutaway painting:

 

the_incredible_cross_sections_moldy_crow

 

In any case, it was originally supposed to be about ~20 meters long. It got shrunk slightly in Jedi Knight, but contrary to what Mazz0 said, its size remains very consistent in the game, with the cockpit matching almost perfectly to what the size of the ship is supposed to be from shot to shot. There are three instances where you can determine the scale of the ship in JK from its proximity to Jan and Kyle, and they all imply a ship which is about 16 meters long or so.

You don't see the inside in the game then? I was just guessing, didn't mean to imply that I knew anything about this particular ship (I don't think I played Jedi Knight).

 

Been trying to get through Dark Forces and I'm pretty sure only the outside is revealed. In Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight at most you would see small glimpses of the inside but the shots were during the Live Action cut-scenes and were quite zoomed in on the Actors. It would be hard to tell just how big the inside is when it isn't really shown fully. By the time you get to Jedi Outcast, they are using a completely different ship but the in-game cutscenes do show the inside of that ship right at the beginning of the game.

 

 

UPDATE: Just saw the videos posted by Millenium Falsehood. Been a while since I've seen the cut-scenes for Jedi Knight. You're right though, it looks like it may fit around 6 people, albeit uncomfortably.

Edited by GroggyGolem

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I certainly see defining it as a 'heavy fighter' sure works better than calling it a light freighter.  Honestly, I'd say the RPG stats are mostly wishful thinking and done in large part to make the ship more PC party friendly.  I mean how should that really be able to haul half again as much cargo as the Falcon?  Now maybe it could have a 50 or even 25 tons cargo hold and those "six passengers" it can supposedly take on will be done INSTEAD of the cargo.

 

I actually have similar issues with the Lambda as various sources have said it can haul X tons of cargo OR Y number of troops yet many RPG stats you see have it listed with X AND Y.

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Wow, those videos, just wow. Suddenly Phantom Menace doesn't seem so bad!

Well, maybe that's just the cab, and you attach trailers to haul cargo?

What RPG stats? Just looked in the Edge of the Empire rulebook and can't find it.

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The HWK first appeared in the Dark Forces PC Game, and it is about right. In that game, it was used for extracting a Rebel Operative and Spy (Kyle Katarn) from missions in hostile territory. So if it was as big as a falcon it wouldn't be much good at being sneaky.

The two pilot crew sit behind each other, and apparently the wookiepedia page is based on some secondary source adding fluff beyond the Lucasarts appearances of the ship. FFG based it on its appearances in video games as created by Lucasarts.

 

 Never played the Dark Forces PC game so I was unaware the HWK was introduced in it. I first became aware of the HWK-290 when I read about it in The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide for the Star Wars Saga RPG from WoTC so I was getting confused. In there the HWK as compared to a YT-1300 is listed as the same ship class size (Colossal space transport) with the same amount of crew (2) and could carry the same number of passengers (6) but the HWK, being designed for more upscale clients than the YT-1300, can carry them in a bit more comfort. The only differences between the stock versions of the two ships is that the HWK-290 can carry 150 tons of cargo versus the YT-1300's 100 tons, the HWK has 6 months of consumables versus the YT's 2 months and that the YT is comes better armed than the HWK. So when I heard that the HWK-290 was coming out, I assumed that it was going to be a large ship.

 

the_incredible_cross_sections_moldy_crow

 

In any case, it was originally supposed to be about ~20 meters long. It got shrunk slightly in Jedi Knight, but contrary to what Mazz0 said, its size remains very consistent in the game, with the cockpit matching almost perfectly to what the size of the ship is supposed to be from shot to shot. There are three instances where you can determine the scale of the ship in JK from its proximity to Jan and Kyle, and they all imply a ship which is about 16 meters long or so.

Alright this does not explain the size confusion at all. The cutaway says the HWK-290 is a heavy fighter and only has room for two people while even the back of the box the mini comes in says that it is a light freighter. So how can a heavy fighter be more able to hide in plain sight than a light freighter.

Edited by Moehowrd67

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No problem. :)

 

You do see the interior actually. Twice. Here are the first half of the cutscenes (I can't find individual ones):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt5sWET-5Tw

 

If you go to 7:44 in that video, you can see how cramped the cockpit is. It can probably carry about six people, but it's no freighter.

 

At 7:56 you can see that, compared to the Nebulon-B, it's about 1/3 the size of the Millennium Falcon.

 

At 12:50 Kyle and Jan are standing next to the cockpit, and you can see how tiny it is compared to an adult human.

 

The other part I mentioned where you can see the Crow compared to a human is in this video:

 

 

At 10:19 there's a longer scene with Kyle in the cockpit, but it's not as useful as the previous scenes for determining scale.

 

 

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all here, but I did do a lot of research for that cutaway, with the assistance of a handful of dedicate Crow fans, and after working for months to figure out the scale we each came to this conclusion independently.

 

Also worth noticing around 7:20 and again a few seconds later: Jan Ors' head framed by the open cockpit.

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