Pugilist and Unarmed Warrior

[Malbojia 2]

I was doing some reading and noticed something that didn't sit right. Someone tell me if I'm reading this right.

 

Say you took the talent Pugilist:

 

Page 102: Only War: Hammer of the Emperor

Pugilist
Tier: 1
Prerequisite: Strength 30
Aptitudes: Offense, Strength
When facing down the terrible foes of the Imperium, most
soldiers prefer to be standing behind the largest guns available.
Though this is perhaps wise, it is rarely the case for the vast
majority of Guardsmen. As such, many Guardsmen become
adept at fighting with other weapons, including their bare hands.
   This character may make a Feint Action as a Free Action
when making an unarmed All-Out Attack Action or Standard
Attack Action. Additionally, he may make Called Shot Actions
as a Half Action when making unarmed attacks.

 

(don't know why the talents fluff mentions "other weapons" when it only affects unarmed combat in the rule section)

 

Now, say you already built guys who are decent at unarmed combat. The first talent you  would have given them would have been:

 

Page 153: Only War Core

UNARMED WARRIOR
Tier: 1
Prerequisite: Weapon Skill 35, Agility 35
Aptitudes: Strength, Offence
After extensive training, the character has gained the Natural
Weapon Trait (see page 156), improving all his unarmed
attacks from 1d5-3 to 1d10, and meaning he counts as armed
even when facing opponents with weapons while bare handed.

 

 

The wording of Pugilist, a talent designed for unarmed combat, makes it self unusable, the moment you have the "Unarmed Warrior" talent. Logical clash?

 

Pugilist should be reworded to something along the lines of  " When attacking with fists/hands..."

 

And since the fluff mentions "other weapons", either remove that part, or tag on " ...fists/hands, or a 1 handed melee weapon, that weighs less than 1/20th you're STR bonus in kg." (or just go with a static weight of less than 1kg if you don't want people using Pugilist with power weapons when they hit >10 STR bonus)

 

That way, things like shock Knuckles, knives, and very light improvised weapons (a rock?) can count as "other weapons". 

 

(at 1/20th STR bonus, anyone from 20 STR and up could use a knife or knuckle weapon. it would take 80 STR bonus to use a chain knife of 4kg with enough ease)

 

At least exception should be put into the Pugilist talent citing Unarmed Warrior and Unarmed Master talents (or just Deadly/Natural Weapons Traits) as exempt. But that's just what I think, maybe I'm missing something.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Malbojia

[bogi_khaosa 267]

It says that they become adept at fighting with other weapons, not that this talent helps them with other weapons. It just helps them out with a particular kind of other weapon, that is, fists and feet. It's just flavor text.

 

I think it's pretty clear that UW means that you don't get the -20 for attacking armed opponents unarmed and nothing else.

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

Unarmed is not a keyword in context, the text is merely descriptive in order to explain what the Talents do in connection to other rules.

Even if he "counts as armed", he is still "unarmed". "Armed" or "unarmed" are not keywords meant to imply specific states, but merely explain certain circumstances and what the effect of those circumstances are and the effects thereof.

Also, the "other weapons" in the text is merely flavour-text explaining why a Guardsman would learn to fight with his hands, even though he doesn't have to. It has nothing to do with the effect of the Talent itself.

Any weapon proficiency text could say the same. Imagine for example:
 

When facing down the terrible foes of the Imperium, most soldiers prefer to be standing behind the largest guns available. Though this is perhaps wise, it is rarely the case for the vast majority of Guardsmen. As such, many Guardsmen become adept at fighting with other weapons, including whips.

It has nothing to do with the other weapons. The "other weapon" in the context is the whip. Or in the case of the Pugilist Talent, your hands. It merely explains why you would take the time to learn a non-standard non-ranged weapon.

The fact that "Armed" and "Unarmed" is not a keyword for things like this is, of course, stupid, because there are definitely things that should affect whether you are considered Unarmed or not. For starters, Shock Gloves (as you mentioned them) should still count as "Unarmed". Brass Knuckles should still count as Unarmed. And so on, unless you have Unarmed Warrior. In which case you should count as Armed.

And then you add the stipulation to Pugilist that it applies to Unarmed attacks even if they count as Armed due to Unarmed Warrior.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Fgdsfg

[Malbojia 2]

 

 

Unarmed is not a keyword in context, the text is merely descriptive in order to explain what the Talents do in connection to other rules.

Even if he "counts as armed", he is still "unarmed". "Armed" or "unarmed" are not keywords meant to imply specific states, but merely explain certain circumstances and what the effect of those circumstances are and the effects thereof.

Also, the "other weapons" in the text is merely flavour-text explaining why a Guardsman would learn to fight with his hands, even though he doesn't have to. It has nothing to do with the effect of the Talent itself.

Any weapon proficiency text could say the same. Imagine for example:
 

When facing down the terrible foes of the Imperium, most soldiers prefer to be standing behind the largest guns available. Though this is perhaps wise, it is rarely the case for the vast majority of Guardsmen. As such, many Guardsmen become adept at fighting with other weapons, including whips.

It has nothing to do with the other weapons. The "other weapon" in the context is the whip. Or in the case of the Pugilist Talent, your hands. It merely explains why you would take the time to learn a non-standard non-ranged weapon.

The fact that "Armed" and "Unarmed" is not a keyword for things like this is, of course, stupid, because there are definitely things that should affect whether you are considered Unarmed or not. For starters, Shock Gloves (as you mentioned them) should still count as "Unarmed". Brass Knuckles should still count as Unarmed. And so on, unless you have Unarmed Warrior. In which case you should count as Armed.

And then you add the stipulation to Pugilist that it applies to Unarmed attacks even if they count as Armed due to Unarmed Warrior.

 

 

 

Both Unarmed Warrior and Unarmed Master give the Deadly Natural and Natural weapons traits. The traits say you count as armed and explain that you now have built in weapons. But why is "Armed" and "Unarmed" not a keyword? Unarmed combat has it's own rules entry (nvm, guess that doesn't define it, so much as use it somewhere else).

 

 

What does a word need, to be counted as defined?

 

UNARMED COMBAT
Not every fight in Only War requires lasguns and
chainswords. Some conflicts can be settled the old-fashioned
way with fists (not to mention feet and, if you’re a sneaky
Ratling, teeth). To make an unarmed attack, the attacker must
be engaged in melee with his opponent. The attacker then
makes a Challenging (+0) Weapon Skill Test, or if his
opponent is armed with a melee or pistol weapon, a Hard
(–20) Weapon Skill Test. If the unarmed attack hits, it deals
1d5-3 Impact Damage, plus the character’s Strength Bonus.
In addition, a successful hit that inflicts Damage equal to or
greater than the target’s Toughness Bonus also inflicts one
level of Fatigue. During unarmed combat, if a 10 is rolled on
a die for Damage, the rules for Righteous Fury apply with
10s counting as 5s in terms of Damage caused. As with most
melee attacks, an Unarmed attack can be Parried.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Malbojia

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

 

 

 

Unarmed is not a keyword in context, the text is merely descriptive in order to explain what the Talents do in connection to other rules.

Even if he "counts as armed", he is still "unarmed". "Armed" or "unarmed" are not keywords meant to imply specific states, but merely explain certain circumstances and what the effect of those circumstances are and the effects thereof.

Also, the "other weapons" in the text is merely flavour-text explaining why a Guardsman would learn to fight with his hands, even though he doesn't have to. It has nothing to do with the effect of the Talent itself.

Any weapon proficiency text could say the same. Imagine for example:

 

When facing down the terrible foes of the Imperium, most soldiers prefer to be standing behind the largest guns available. Though this is perhaps wise, it is rarely the case for the vast majority of Guardsmen. As such, many Guardsmen become adept at fighting with other weapons, including whips.

It has nothing to do with the other weapons. The "other weapon" in the context is the whip. Or in the case of the Pugilist Talent, your hands. It merely explains why you would take the time to learn a non-standard non-ranged weapon.

The fact that "Armed" and "Unarmed" is not a keyword for things like this is, of course, stupid, because there are definitely things that should affect whether you are considered Unarmed or not. For starters, Shock Gloves (as you mentioned them) should still count as "Unarmed". Brass Knuckles should still count as Unarmed. And so on, unless you have Unarmed Warrior. In which case you should count as Armed.

And then you add the stipulation to Pugilist that it applies to Unarmed attacks even if they count as Armed due to Unarmed Warrior.

 

 

 

Both Unarmed Warrior and Unarmed Master give the Deadly Natural and Natural weapons traits. The traits say you count as armed and explain that you now have built in weapons. But why is "Armed" and "Unarmed" not a keyword? Unarmed combat has it's own rules entry (nvm, guess that doesn't define it, so much as use it somewhere else).

 

 

What does a word need, to be counted as defined?

 

UNARMED COMBAT

Not every fight in Only War requires lasguns and

chainswords. Some conflicts can be settled the old-fashioned

way with fists (not to mention feet and, if you’re a sneaky

Ratling, teeth). To make an unarmed attack, the attacker must

be engaged in melee with his opponent. The attacker then

makes a Challenging (+0) Weapon Skill Test, or if his

opponent is armed with a melee or pistol weapon, a Hard

(–20) Weapon Skill Test. If the unarmed attack hits, it deals

1d5-3 Impact Damage, plus the character’s Strength Bonus.

In addition, a successful hit that inflicts Damage equal to or

greater than the target’s Toughness Bonus also inflicts one

level of Fatigue. During unarmed combat, if a 10 is rolled on

a die for Damage, the rules for Righteous Fury apply with

10s counting as 5s in terms of Damage caused. As with most

melee attacks, an Unarmed attack can be Parried.

 

Capitalization and, hopefully, being defined somewhere in the books. Notice "Damage" and "Parried" and, in this one, actually, "Unarmed".

They keep screwing it up, though. Sometimes, I think that it's mostly the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Sometimes, texts are descriptive "If you attack unarmed..." while otherwise it points out a keyword like "Your Unarmed attacks counts as Armed..", clearly alluding to other rules. Most of the time, these things are not a problem and that's probably while no-one catches them in play or while proof-reading (or beta-testing), but sometimes, when discussions crop up, it's a ***** to iron out.