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A Quick Query for those who have a copy of the Beta

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X-Wing Star fighter

Silhouette: 3, Speed: 4, Handling: +3, (Defence (Fore/Port/Sbd/Aft): 1/-/-/1, Armour: 3
Hull Type: Star fighter/X-Wing
Manufacturer: Incom
Hyperdrive: Primary: Class 1, Backup: None
Navcomputer: None(Astromech Droid Socket)
Sensor Range: Short
Ship’s Complement: One Pilot
Encumbrance Capacity: 10
Passenger Capacity: 0
Consumables: One Week
Cost/Rarity: 150,000/6?
Customization Hard Points: 2

Weapons:
4 fire-linked Wing Tip Medium Laser Cannons (Fire Arc: Forward, Damage: 6, Critical: 3, Range: Close, Linked 4);
Forward Mounted Proton Torpedo Launchers (4)(Fire Arc: Forward, Damage: 8, Critical: 2, Range: Short, Breach 6, Blast 6, Guided 2, Limited Ammo 8, Linked 1, Slow-Firing 1).

 

Is this an accurate assumption?
 

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The current stats gave it Speed 5, Handling +1, and Armor 5*.  Cost is also 120,000 credits with Rarity 5, and only a single customization hard point.

 

Your stat block is also missing Hull Trauma and System Strain, both of which are 10 in the Beta.

 

Weapons would be Linked 3, since you only apply Linked for each weapon after the first.  So three additional laser cannons = Linked 3.  The Beta version also only has 1 proton torpedo launcher with Limited Ammo 6.

 

So you're off on a few bits, but overall you're pretty close.

 

*There's a whole thread of folks complaining about how this is way too powerful in the Game Mechanics section and how it makes X-Wings way too good in comparison to the in-verse archaic Y-Wing.

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Not this argument again...  :rolleyes:

 

I did find it an interesting coincidence that the Speeds actually seemed to generally line up with the MGLT system (FFG Speed x 5 = speed in MGLT), which in my book worked just fine for the X-wing as a "TIE/LN killer"... admittedly one of the reasons I never accepted Armor 5, although I was open to Donovan's proposal of Armor 4: either 3 or 4 would still be more than the TIE/LN's 2, combined with its higher HT and SS thresholds*, and it could match a TIE/LN's speed without needing to be a more fragile A-wing.  :P

 

Admittedly I have made the X-wing a higher Rarity to signal its exclusive production for the Alliance and being less ubiquitous than TIE/LNs, but 5 already achieves the latter.

 

* Arguments about whether it's lower than a Y-wing enough, and indeed the "balance" between X-wing and Y-wing aside (Donovan seeming rather different from a bunch of others in whether there's even supposed to be balance), it's still higher than a TIE/LN, which unlike them is where my comparison point is.

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Oh, come on now...

The Y-wing is only 20 years old, and that hardly qualifies as archaic in the star wars universe.

The Ford Model-T car wouldn't be considered "archaic" in terms of human civilization, being less than a century old, and yet it's certainly archaic in comparison to today's generation of cars.

 

To most folks during the Rebellion Era, the Y-Wing is an antiquated design, something that's been around for over two decades, right alongside the various Separatist ships and even the starships used by the Grand Army of the Republic during the Clone Wars.  Heck, even the YT-1300 is considered to something of a relic, only still seeing use because it's so reliable and fits the niche it was designed for so well.  Same with the basic theory behind hyperdrives and blasters.

 

While the overall types of technology might not change much from era to era in the Star Wars universe, things do improve over time.  Consider that during the end of the Clone Wars, the Eta-2 Actis Interceptor was considered a top-of-the-line space superiority fighter... but by the Rebellion Era, it's pretty much akin to a 50's muscle car in today's world.  Heck, the A-Wing does much the same, being as fast and with comparable armament, but has the advantage of both shields (something the Eta-2 doesn't have) and an internal hyperdrive that comes standard.

 

The Y-wing is still a serviceable ship, but it's no longer a top-of-the-line model; if anything it's akin to a car from the 80's still being on the road in today's world.  It gets you from point A to point B, but it's not as fuel-efficient, more likely than not prone to various issues simply from being so old, and needs constant maintenance to do it's job.

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The F-22 Raptor is 15 years old and is still top of the line. The F/A-18 Super Hornet is about the same age. The F-15E Strike Eagle is about 25 years old. One generation doesn't make fighter aircraft archaic IRL, so it seems weird to think that it does in Star Wars when most things have greatly elongated timespans.

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The F-22 Raptor is 15 years old and is still top of the line. The F/A-18 Super Hornet is about the same age. The F-15E Strike Eagle is about 25 years old. One generation doesn't make fighter aircraft archaic IRL, so it seems weird to think that it does in Star Wars when most things have greatly elongated timespans.

 

There isn't a war on. When there is, new designs and upgrades get rushed in to production much faster.

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The F-22 Raptor is 15 years old and is still top of the line. The F/A-18 Super Hornet is about the same age. The F-15E Strike Eagle is about 25 years old. One generation doesn't make fighter aircraft archaic IRL, so it seems weird to think that it does in Star Wars when most things have greatly elongated timespans.

Especially how long military R&D and procurement contracts take to process.

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There isn't a war on.

 

not-sure-if-stupid-or-just-trolling.jpg

 

 

A fair point, but I would comment that I think new UAVs are getting developed and put in to service quite quickly as they are seen as useful while cold war dogfighters are not.

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*There's a whole thread of folks complaining about how this is way too powerful in the Game Mechanics section and how it makes X-Wings way too good in comparison to the in-verse archaic Y-Wing.

 

Those folks are almost universally Empire fanboys though.

Edited by ErikB

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Oh, come on now...

The Y-wing is only 20 years old, and that hardly qualifies as archaic in the star wars universe.

The Ford Model-T car wouldn't be considered "archaic" in terms of human civilization, being less than a century old, and yet it's certainly archaic in comparison to today's generation of cars.

 

To most folks during the Rebellion Era, the Y-Wing is an antiquated design, something that's been around for over two decades, right alongside the various Separatist ships and even the starships used by the Grand Army of the Republic during the Clone Wars.  Heck, even the YT-1300 is considered to something of a relic, only still seeing use because it's so reliable and fits the niche it was designed for so well.  Same with the basic theory behind hyperdrives and blasters.

 

While the overall types of technology might not change much from era to era in the Star Wars universe, things do improve over time.  Consider that during the end of the Clone Wars, the Eta-2 Actis Interceptor was considered a top-of-the-line space superiority fighter... but by the Rebellion Era, it's pretty much akin to a 50's muscle car in today's world.  Heck, the A-Wing does much the same, being as fast and with comparable armament, but has the advantage of both shields (something the Eta-2 doesn't have) and an internal hyperdrive that comes standard.

 

The Y-wing is still a serviceable ship, but it's no longer a top-of-the-line model; if anything it's akin to a car from the 80's still being on the road in today's world.  It gets you from point A to point B, but it's not as fuel-efficient, more likely than not prone to various issues simply from being so old, and needs constant maintenance to do it's job.

 

 

But one of those souped up and restored Model-T's are pretty freakin' awesome.  I'd take one of those over a new Mustang any day of the week.

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*There's a whole thread of folks complaining about how this is way too powerful in the Game Mechanics section and how it makes X-Wings way too good in comparison to the in-verse archaic Y-Wing.

 

Those folks are almost universally Empire fanboys though.

 

I think it is too high, because what do you do going forward?  Does the E-wing or the Twin-Tail have Armor 8? 9?  The X-Wing is already better than the Y-Wing in many other ways - and they are two different types of fighter, playing two different operational roles (one which calls for heavier armor and taking more punishment, the other seeing heavier protection as a drag on handling, speed and performance).  The A-Wing and B-Wing are newer than the X-Wing, does that mean they get even higher stats?

 

No fanboyism of any sort needed.  Just a desire to not fall down the rabbit hole of stat inflation.  X-Wings are plenty cool - you don't need to give them god stats on top of their other advantages.

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I just haven't played enough starfighter combats to have any idea what impact the different stats actually mean. I doubt many people have. Is a 5 armour game changing or largely inconsequential? 

 

(And I think people are objecting to it not because they understand what the numbers mean but just because being Empire fanboys they don't like that it has more numbers than a TIE fighter. And I don't think that is a very good reason to object, especially in a game where the PCs are probably going to need to be outnumbered by the TIEs).

Edited by ErikB

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Basically, the difference between 5 armor vs 3 armor means taking 2 damage versus 4 damage against a TIE's laser cannons with minimum success to hit. A Y-wing can only take 3 such hits while an X-wing can take 5.

 

It's such an out of place stat, nothing short of the Sentinel landing craft or small cruisers have that kind armor.

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I allowed my EotE players to start with a Ghtroc 720 liught freighter from the EotE Beta. It has 5 Armor. It's a significant advantage. My players have lost the ship for now (confiscated by Imperials, to be sold off at auction in a few months) and are using a ship with Armor 4.

 

High Armor can make a big difference, particularly when Autofire or Linked weapons are used against the ship.

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It's such an out of place stat

 

I see Interesting, Unexpected and Only as much as a Space Turtle.

 

Could be fine for a legendary fighter like the mighty X-Wing.

 

Assuming you wanted to give the X-Wing an edge to represent it being, well, the most popular fighter, other ways of doing it might be Too Much.

Edited by ErikB

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The F-22 Raptor is 15 years old and is still top of the line. The F/A-18 Super Hornet is about the same age. The F-15E Strike Eagle is about 25 years old. One generation doesn't make fighter aircraft archaic IRL, so it seems weird to think that it does in Star Wars when most things have greatly elongated timespans.

 

Yes and no. If we're going to make real-world comparisons, the X-Wing strikes me as more of an F-15 than an F-22. If I was going to make a comparison to the F-22, I'd be inclined to think it was more akin to a Stealth X. (Though admittedly, a Stealth X could also be compared to the Silent Eagle.)

 

The Y-Wing seems more like an A-10 or a dedicated fighter-bomber. Older, uglier, and very heavily armored. Is the A-10 going to outrun or outfly a dedicated air superiority fighter? Absolutely not. Is it going to be able to take a lot more punishment? You bet.

 

I understand that an argument making real-world aircraft comparisons to imaginary spacecraft is extremely arbitrary and subjective. I'm simply using those craft as comparisons to illustrate the possible relationships between the two fighters. Suggesting that the Y-Wing would be completely obsolete by 0 BBY seems a bit misguided when you consider that we live in a world where the B-52 and U-2 are still in service and the F-4 is only now being phased out by some of the world's air forces.

 

The issue isn't one of favoritism or "fanboyism" so much as it is one of making sure the crunch matches the fluff. The Y-Wing fluff in the Edge of the Empire core rulebook says as follows:

 

In keeping with their role as ship killers, Y-wings have thick armor and heavy shields to protect them while they close with targets. With their slim cross-section, sturdy protection, and powerful weapons, they are well suited to a role that requires them to fight their way to a target, deliver their ordnance, and fight their way back. Despite their reputation for reliability, Y-wings possess some quirks that make them relatively high maintenance. This has led to frustrated crews and technicians permanently removing the largely cosmetic hull plating for ease of constant access to the fighter's internal systems; it's a rare Y-wing that flies with its hull plates in tact.

 

FFG's own fluff material would have me believe that Y-Wings are known for having solid armor in the era in which the RPG is set. It doesn't say, "had thick armor for their time" or similar. X-Wings are known for many things, but having the armor of a capital ship is not one of them. It's not about "balance" or some sort of irrational distaste for the X-Wing, it's simply about people wanting to make sure that the stats given for a given ship match the in-universe characteristics that they're supposed to be representing. 

 

In my opinion, the X-Wing, with its unusually high armor stat relative to the Y-Wing and other fighters is far from the only fighter in Age of Rebellion whose stats don't seem to match up with the source material. I think the discussion is worth having if people are actually willing to look past their own preferences. 

 

(And I think people are objecting to it not because they understand what the numbers mean but just because being Empire fanboys they don't like that it has more numbers than a TIE fighter. And I don't think that is a very good reason to object, especially in a game where the PCs are probably going to need to be outnumbered by the TIEs).

 

Was it hard, knocking down that strawman?

 

Or is your strategy to simply accuse others of fanboyism before you get called out for your own? Either way, your hypocrisy is palpable.

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A lot of this has already been hashed out in this thread:

 

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/89005-the-x-wing-and-other-rebel-fighters/

 

Perhaps instead of derailing the OP's thread with more bickering, how about continuing the conversation in a thread that already exists for this very topic.

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Or is your strategy to simply accuse others of fanboyism before you get called out for your own? Either way, your hypocrisy is palpable.

 

 

I am totally a rebel fanboy and even more an X-Wing fanboy, but, yknow, given that the game is about playing rebels flying X-Wings I think that is, like, a better place to approach it from than Empire fanboyism.

 

Case in point (start at 17m57s for a typical X-Wing/TIE fighter interaction):-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Utcy2EaOaI&t=17m57s

 

>>>X-Wing Historical Mission 4: Beat the Odds.

Description: Rebel Starfighter pilots almost always fight outnumbered by the Empire by at least three to one. This mission will teach you how to beat these odds.

Brief:

X-Wings from Red Squadron will test Imperial defenses near Circarpous IV. You may expect to encounter TIE Fighters performing barrier defense. Engage and destroy the TIEs and then return to base.

Detail:

An X-Wing Star Fighter and a highly trained pilot make a deadly combination. Using a variation of the venerable 'Hit and Fade' tactic, Rebel pilots are often able to lure superior numbers of enemy fighter to their doom. Imperial Rules of Combat Engagement demand a three to one ratio in their favor before attacking. Your training will prepare you to overcome these odds, however. This mission recreates a feint into the Circarpous system to engage Imperial defenses there. Taking the bait, a group of TIE Fighters tangled with the three X-Wings from Red Squadron. They should have stayed at their base. All the TIE were destroyed with no Rebel losses. Needless to say, this left quite an impression on the people of the Circarpous system. Move quickly to engage and get your share of the kills.<<<

Edited by ErikB

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I am totally a rebel fanboy and even more an X-Wing fanboy, but, yknow, given that the game is about playing rebels flying X-Wings I think that is, like, a better place to approach it from than Empire fanboyism.

 

 

 

I hope the general dislike of your conversation style will lead to Fantasy Flight putting out an Imperial book just to piss you off. I'd buy it if only for the same reason...

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I hope the general dislike of your conversation style will lead to Fantasy Flight putting out an Imperial book just to piss you off. I'd buy it if only for the same reason...

 

I don't think they are going to be able to get a pro-imperial game past Disney, so I don't see there as being any point in making the rebel focused game they can make less fun than it could be for people playing it in order to placate the Empire fanboys who don't even want to play it. Especially when the Empire are not supposed to have fanboys!

 

I don't see an enormous point in dancing around that. That is the heart of the matter right?

 

--

 

Incidentally, air-to-air missions are is always cooler than air-to-ground, and no one likes a compromise. Multirole aircraft are inherently less cool that pure dogfighters. I mean, no one likes a compromise. Therefore, I think it would make the X-Wing cooler if it was returned to being a Space Superiority fighter (or Space Dominance fighter even) instead of a multirole fighter.

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I don't see an enormous point in dancing around that. That is the heart of the matter right?

 

Well, it is funny you mention dancing because that is exactly what you've been doing these last few weeks. You have been dancing the same tired routine over and over again and I, for one, am sick and tired of it.

 

Stop derailing threads with the same **** every goddamn day. We get your point. Some people agree, some don't but typing the same bs every other thread (even in unrelated threads) doesn't seem to be changing anyone's mind, at all. In fact, for me it is doing quite the opposite! I had no interest in imperial play whatsoever but your tireless nagging, annoying behaviour and the honest, inventive and thoughful responses it generated actually showed me that imperial campaigns could be worthwhile and fun. Besides, your whole totalitarian, won't-allow-any-dissent, houlier than thou attitude is more reminiscent of imperial thought than it is of a rebelious attitude.

So do us all a favor, pick up your tired, worn out schtick and take a hike, you are getting on everyone's nerves.

 

Sorry for being crass but there literally is no other way to tell you this anymore, you trolling child.

Edited by DanteRotterdam

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