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gmanjkd

Relic or Talisman

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Hello all.  If this discussion has been posted in the past i apologize for starting it again.  I am interested in either Relic or Talisman.  I have never played either, so i don't have preconcieved ideas.  My research suggests that they are very similar but different.  I understand that I am probably going to get responses that are perhaps waited toward Relic as i am posting on the Relic forum but I have to start somewhere.  

 

For those of you who have played both Relic and Talisman, which do you like better and why?

 

Thanks for all of you advise.

 

Gary

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By comparing both games based on the core game without expansions.For me theming is what it get my attention first.So fantasy or space.As far as both games mechanic goes, well, I think its safe to say that Talisman is a bit simpler but a lot of fun.More accessible and easier.Relic is in my opinion a tighter game and a bit less random.I guess Relic fits more into today's standard games since Talisman have a more old school feel.You can consider Relic as a advance Talisman.But Talisman I think is much more diverse in the adventure department and have more players interactions and PvP.They're both great games and have tons of replay value.

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Talisman is  better with the expansions, especially small-box, like Reaper and Blood Moon.

You get Alternative endings, lots and lots of Adventure cards and spells,  and if you acquire all the expansions, you'll have 52 playable characters.

 

Relic is an overall tighter package in terms of mechanics and has lots  of replay value with the base game alone. Which is all there is right now.

Edited by zealot12

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I had to make this descision too and I chose Relic.  Here's why:  1.  I had to balance the fact that I was highly balanced towards Talisman since it was one of the first fantasy boardgames I ever played and without it I don't think I would have stuff like RuneBound or Descent.  Talisman had always been fun why wouldn't it be fun again?  2.  I love the Warhammer 40,000 universe for the same reason lots of folks like horror.  For me the universe of Warhammer 40,000 IS my horror.  So the theme and lore won out.  3.  While watching reviews, specifically the one by undeadviking on YouTube, I was reminded that sometimes even if you CAN go home again, it may not be as much fun as you remember.  I was remembering all the shiny and bright parts of Talisman and completely ignoring the bumps in the road such as the Prophetess *shudder*, the fact that games could (and usually would) take forever due to there not being a level cap and everyone wanting to loot and grow as much as possible (even though the endgame was whimpering in a corner by that point.) especially if they could just go around killing all the other players to prevent them from coming back, and that just killed the fun.  It has addressed and fixed all of the old bumps in the road while keeping everything that made it so much fun.  Relic can't even be called a roll and move game either due to the powers system and the fact that you can choose which way to move and so many cards in the game can affect that.  The whole leveling up aspect seems so much better now and specifically tuned to each character. The new level tracker mechanism is brilliant as well.  Everything in this game seems to show just how much the designers were concerned about achieving balance and controlling play time without sacrificing fun on the cursed altar of tradition and I think they nailed it.  In spite of it's name Relic feels to me like the evolution of Talisman.   I hope that helps.

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I have both Relic and Talisman and I like Relic better. I like what they did with Relic I prefer Relics machanics over Talismans. Plus so much they can do with the 40k universe. I'm more excited for future exspansions for this game then Talisman. Necron's or elves? Dang who doesn't want Necron's?

Edited by Silverhelm

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I have both Relic and Talisman and I like Relic better. I like what they did with Relic I prefer Relics machanics over Talismans. Plus so much they can do with the 40k universe. I'm more excited for future exspansions for this game then Talisman. Necron's or elves? Dang who doesn't want Necron's?

I  would really like to see that or any of the 40K races that I haven't really seen much of (like the Tao, er Tau as well.) If you read my post than you probably have seen something that I really like that's different from Talisman.  The way players interact.  I know the first expansion is focussing on getting more of a PvP feel to the game (so I'll probably skip it) but my roommate had a really good idea about just making different races for the different encounter colors and characters as well as other cards that would make sense being in opposition (or in suppor of, in the case of Wargear, Mission and Power cards etc.) to that faction since the board is essentially just the Warhammer 40K universe.  I hope they do something like that and I'm hoping the first expansion doesn't bring "back" the ability for players in the lead to kill other players because nothing made Talisman drag like someone who luckily jumped out to an early lead and then invested most of their efffort for the rest of the game keeping it because they were playing not to lose rather than playing to win.

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I played both games a lot, and IMHO Relic is the better Talisman, which is probably no miracle, as the engine was modelled after the Talisman game. But the designer improved the concepts, and added and streamlined certain bits that overall improve the game a lot.

 

Although, if it is a decisive factor, Talisman is more family-friendly, as Relic has a very dark setting (which I find totally fascinating).

 

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Relic is more concise and compact, for one, Gone are the cones for the various stats, replaced by the dials which save you lots of space. Talisman has fiddlier bits,

Relic is  overall much sharper in design than Talisman.

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Both are really good games, but I find that Talisman to be easier for casual players to get in to. Relic, in my experience, requires some knowledge of the 40K universe to get some immersion with the game.

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If you and your fellow board gamers are not into Warhammer 4o,ooo, Talisman is initially more accessible. Mind you I converted a few such people to prefer Relic over Talisman, simply as it is overall a better game. If in doubt and you have money, buy both!!!

One thing that Talisman is better in is that you can have more than 4 people play but be prepared for a very long game!

Edited by Cailus

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Both are really good games, but I find that Talisman to be easier for casual players to get in to. Relic, in my experience, requires some knowledge of the 40K universe to get some immersion with the game.

 

I would like to disagree with what you say, but the more I think about it, the more I think that it may not be about new players being required to have knowledge of 40K, but more about players with knowledge of 40K get far more immersion from the game than non-40K players.

 

Talisman being so fantasy-broad can appeal to anyone. IF Talisman was "Lord of the Rings" Talisman, I could see that those who are into Lord of the Rings would get much more out of Lord of the Rings Talisman.

 

But I guess, being able to play Relic does not require 40K knowledge. Having that knowledge makes the experience a lot more immersive.

 

So I agree with you in the end. So not sure why I wrote all of this.

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Just to echo the others, Relic is the better game.  I have been playing Talisman since 2nd Edition (own all the expansions).  When a buddy of mine and I played a demo of Relic at Gencon we both walked away very quietly.  It took me a few moments to gather the courage to say, "You know Mike...I liked that more than Talisman.  I know we have been playing for 20+ years...but this just felt better."  He agreed.

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Just to echo the others, Relic is the better game.  I have been playing Talisman since 2nd Edition (own all the expansions).  When a buddy of mine and I played a demo of Relic at Gencon we both walked away very quietly.  It took me a few moments to gather the courage to say, "You know Mike...I liked that more than Talisman.  I know we have been playing for 20+ years...but this just felt better."  He agreed.

 

I do feel that Relic has the better gameplay and mechanic compared to Talisman. I wish for FFG's sake that the Talisman 5th edition would take the key design elements of Relic and apply it to Talisman with the three different deck of attributes and the power cards which can be used to roll a particular number.

 

There is no reason Talisman cannot have a third attribute: Intelligence which would complement strength and craft. After all, in the real world of Epic Fantasy, you can have all the craft abilities you want, if you are an idiot, you will not make the best of your magical abilities.

 

With a third attribute, the board can then redesigned with threat spaces just like Relic.

 

When I play Talisman, i often feel like I am wondering aimlessly at the beginning, or that I am trying to land on the ancient ruins so that I can draw 2 cards instead of 1, try to get some gold, go buy a weapon or two and start making my way to the middle. This strategy is fine but it is one which many players may adopt.

 

With the current Relic game, the missions give each players a different path and it is interesting to watch their character develop. Many of us now have extensive gaming experience (role-playing, miniatures and board games) and are used to complex rules and strategies. Talisman as it is, does not tickle my brain hard enough. Relic does that to some extent: "Should I change my mission" "Should I go and get gear first" "what attribute should I increase if I play the sister of battle". These are simple questions that require simple answers but at least they are there. I feel that Talisman is just too light.

 

Finally, I would like to see a Relic-Talisman because I know that the Talisman universe is a lot more approachable than the 40k one. Every one knows a dragon is bad and everyone knows what a Sorceress does. However, not everyone knows what a Tech Priest or an Eldar Dire avenger is all about.

 

FFG can reach to a lot more potential players with a light Fantasy theme than a heavy Dark Sci-fi theme like 40k and in the end, I want FFG to do well so they can continue to produce great games like Relic and Talisman and people can keep playing them for years to come.

 

So get on it FFG, give us what we are clamoring for, a 5th edition Talisman which includes threat decks and power cards.

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 In my opinion Relic is a better game from the ground up.  If you like pixies,wizards and unicorns play Talisman.  If you like bolt pistols and space marines buy Relic.  If you like both settings, buy Relic.  It's a relatively low buy in and a lot of fun.

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I have Relic and its a lot of fun. I was wondering what they did to Relic to streamline it from the game play of Talisman?

 

New expansion looks like a lot and I mean A LOT of value for $

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I have Relic and its a lot of fun. I was wondering what they did to Relic to streamline it from the game play of Talisman?

 

New expansion looks like a lot and I mean A LOT of value for $

Amazingly I feel FFG didn't streamline Relic "per se". What they did was add more depth and complexity but not more difficulty.

 

For example, talisman characters only have 2 attributes: strength and craft, whereas Relic has three. there is also Fate in Talisman, which is a number of dice re-rolls, whereas Relic has power cards.

 

There are no power cards in Talisman, therefore you must use the dice for all your rolls. You can use Fate to reroll a dice but that's it.The power cards in Relic give you that extra level of control over the game. You have a power card with a 6 on it, go after that nasty monster, you should win and get great rewards. you can't control Talisman that way.

 

In talisman, when you kill 7 pts of strength creature, you level your strength and when you kill 7 points of craft creature you level your craft by 1 but the creatures and monsters are in the same card pile. Have a few bad draw and you may take a long time to upgrade your strength. In Relic, the level track is going to dictate how you level up. But when you play different character, they will level up very differently. In talisman, all characters develop in only 2 ways: strength or craft.

 

In Talisman, the outer tier corner spaces can be good or bad. You roll a D6 and you see what happened. Since you cannot control the rolls, only reroll them, you are always at the mercy of a bad roll, and you can become a toad for 3 turns. It is funny, but never when it happens to you. In relic, the outer corner spaces are there to help you, get more gear, heal up, change your missions, they don't do anything bad.

 

Relic has the mission cards, which give you a goal to play for. The base Talisman has 1 spot on the board where you can get missions, and that is in the middle tier, and you roll a D6. On a 1-2, kill a monster, on a 3 deliver one asset... You only have 5 kinds of mission.

 

Talisman is now full choke of expansion which has made the game quite a beast, but it still very much plays like:

roll a D6 and see what happens.

 

In relic, you are more able to control your journey on the board. You have more choices to make because there is more control. In Talisman, you move around the board and hope for the best. In Relic, you can go to specific spaces and you wanted to go there because you want a specific end or you need to go there for a mission.

 

Talisman was created 30 years ago and it has retained a lot of its flavor and mechanic. Not surprisingly, the gaming community is not the same as it was 30 years ago. There was nothing like Talisman 30 years ago. Now, we have miniature games and pretty brainy board games therefore players are used to and accustomed to complexity in a game. Talisman lacks a certain modern complexity which is why the game is often thought has being too slow and random.

 

Relic added complexity and depth and made a faster and less random game to the delight of all of us out here.

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I have only played the Relic base game and I would say that whilst there are inconsistencies in Talisman (e.g. some items are trinkets in one expansion, but in the main game are not even if they are largely the same type of item) and that some combinations can be overpowered (e.g. Leprachaun and the City expansion) I do think Talisman is the better game.

 

Maybe I need to try the Relic expansion, but from what I can tell, the following flaws make Relic less enjoyable:

1) Once you've upgraded your level to level 12 it is difficult to progress individual attributes (strength etc) as you can't cash in trophies.  This slows down your progress dramatically.

2) You need a fairly rounded character strong in all areas to progress the Inner Region as you are challenged on Strength, Willpower and Cunning, so you need to strengthen every attribute - no taking daring chances to the middle as a strategy.

3) Power cards (spells?) play an overpowering role in the game compared to Influence (gold?).  Any characters without power cards are unlikely to progress the game well - unlike in Talisman where there are strong non-magic characters and gold-based characters.

 

Overall, the upgrade mechanism tries to bring all characters to upgrade their attributed in a more rounded manner making the gameplay of most characters to be much more similar than in Talisman.

 

The reason why I liked Talisman over more strategical games were that Talisman is like a journey and you don't know what you'll next encounter.  In Relic, it's large monster after monster and your upgrade path is clear.

 

The sense of adventure in playing a game of Relic isn't there like it is in Talisman.  And after the first 30-45 minutes becomes more of a grind.

 

Everyone has their own views - the above is mine.  I'm hoping it will improve with more plays and the expansion.

 

Thanks. 

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I have only played the Relic base game and I would say that whilst there are inconsistencies in Talisman (e.g. some items are trinkets in one expansion, but in the main game are not even if they are largely the same type of item) and that some combinations can be overpowered (e.g. Leprachaun and the City expansion) I do think Talisman is the better game.

 

Maybe I need to try the Relic expansion, but from what I can tell, the following flaws make Relic less enjoyable:

1) Once you've upgraded your level to level 12 it is difficult to progress individual attributes (strength etc) as you can't cash in trophies.  This slows down your progress dramatically.

 

You really don't need to be level 12 to brave the Inner Tier. Sometimes levels 5 or 6 are enough. The Inner Tier Trials are there to weaken you, not to stop you in your tracks, since after failing a Test, you still continue to the next square. 

 

 

2) You need a fairly rounded character strong in all areas to progress the Inner Region as you are challenged on Strength, Willpower and Cunning, so you need to strengthen every attribute - no taking daring chances to the middle as a strategy.

See above

 

3) Power cards (spells?) play an overpowering role in the game compared to Influence (gold?).  Any characters without power cards are unlikely to progress the game well - unlike in Talisman where there are strong non-magic characters and gold-based characters.

 

The difference is that everyone starts with at least one Power card in Relic, and they're fairly easy to obtain, and more functional than the Spells in Talisman. Some spells in Talisman you can get stuck with for a while, since there's no valid target for them until way later. That's not so in  Relic.

All the Power cards are useful from the start and double as guaranteed rolls for movement or skill/battle tests.

 

 

 

Overall, the upgrade mechanism tries to bring all characters to upgrade their attributed in a more rounded manner making the gameplay of most characters to be much more similar than in Talisman.

The reason why I liked Talisman over more strategical games were that Talisman is like a journey and you don't know what you'll next encounter.  In Relic, it's large monster after monster and your upgrade path is clear.

 

I think the Enemies in Relic are for one more varied, since most come with their own rewards, penalties, and special abilities, so there's more decision making in trying to tackle the order of fights.

Edited by zealot12

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I agree with what zealot12 says.

 

I still find Relic to be an adventure like Talisman. I feel the 3 threat decks and the power cards give me more options and control.

 

The level 12 limit is an attempt to force people to commit to finishing the game and to not dragging it on.

 

If you find the middle scenario (Corruptis, Kairos Fateweaver, Blood Daemon, Chaos Spawn) contains a battle that is too hard, just announce before game that the middle scenario boss has a -2 battle score penalty.

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1) Once you've upgraded your level to level 12 it is difficult to progress individual attributes (strength etc) as you can't cash in trophies.  This slows down your progress dramatically.

2) You need a fairly rounded character strong in all areas to progress the Inner Region as you are challenged on Strength, Willpower and Cunning, so you need to strengthen every attribute - no taking daring chances to the middle as a strategy.

3) Power cards (spells?) play an overpowering role in the game compared to Influence (gold?).  Any characters without power cards are unlikely to progress the game well - unlike in Talisman where there are strong non-magic characters and gold-based characters.

 

Overall, the upgrade mechanism tries to bring all characters to upgrade their attributed in a more rounded manner making the gameplay of most characters to be much more similar than in Talisman.

 

Now, these are my opinions and my opinions only. I play Relic about once a month and Talisman about once a month. So I am getting a pretty good picture of player progress. Some of these games are with 2 3 or 4 players.

 

In Relic, you really don't need to level up to 12 to travel to the middle. In fact, I would advise not to. It takes too long. Someone will have a go at the center by 7-8 because by level 8 you automatically move 1 more space when you enter the inner tier.

 

You don't need a fairly rounded character either. In my many plays, I find rounded characters to be annoyingly slow and difficult to upgrade. With a Strength based character, I try to land on a red square most of the time and I will likely be increasing my strength rapidly through level upgrades. So what if I suck at willpower? I will loose a life in the inner tier, but if I have enough lives, I can soak it up very easily.

When I play the sister of battle, my favorite character, I choose 2 attributes to increase and let the third one untouched. That to me, is a great tactic for Relic. Choose 2 attributes, let the third one, your weakest, remain the weakest and focus on 2.

 

You want two strong attributes because you want some flexibility when it comes to fighting. One attribute is too narrow and it will be difficult to always land on the spaces you want. Three attributes is too many and your progress will be quite slow, Besides, very few characters give you the opportunity to upgrade all 3 attributes. I feel 2 is the right number.

 

Power cards can become silly, especially with powerful relic interactions: the one that gives you a 6 all the times for example. But I agree that power cards are far more useful than Talisman spells, and I love, love, love the fact that you can use it as a dice roll. For your movement, this is unbelievably critical. You have a strong willpower and a blue tyranid enemy worth 6 pts is waiting face up 3 squares away and you have a Power Card of 3 in your player area. Forget the dice, use the power card to immediately travel there, kill the bug and earn a level up. Power cards are not all about "sixes".

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Hi all. Glad to hear the positive perspectives on Relic. I think I'm going to get the expansion to see if it improves the game further. Definitely playing 'the other side' seems interesting. We played again taking into account various points made above especially not waiting until levelling to level 12 before moving forwards to the inner region.

I'm still not completely convinced that Relic based on Talisman rules was a good idea. For decent strategy games we play Catan or Ticket To Ride. Talisman is the opposite - very luck based and an open journey with a great deal of variety, where the turning of every card is exciting as you don't know what to expect.

Even on the second play, whilst I appreciate that 'you have more control' over your character, it's not as good as other strategy games but at the same time not as good as Talisman for what Talisman does great. It's easy to compare direct with Talisman and say that it's less random and you have more control and can apply more consistent reliable strategy but to do that you'd then need to compare with other games dedicated to strategy and Relic isn't quite good enough. What carries it over is possibly people's love of the Warhammer universe - otherwise people might have less time for it.

I guess from an adventure perspective, it still feels fairly boring. I can't remember the monsters in each deck - I just know I turn them over, try to beat them and then move on. All the cards are largely the same - monsters. Everyone has power cards. Yes, the abilities are more diverse like Talisman, but otherwise it doesn't feel exciting. Monster after monster whilst trying to get to the middle. The vanquishing concept feels like death coming too easily and so vanquishing implemented and then the concept of corruption to represent real death.

I remember playing Talisman and selecting the Minstrel. When you encounter a monster on your journey, you remember whether it's an animal and whether you can charm it. If you're the Sorceress, you remember constantly drawing spell cards. It feels different and the world feels very big and open due to the depth and diversity of cards and thus you feel that sense of adventure.

I do think that there are elements of Relic which shine and can be implemented in Talisman. The most obvious of these is the power roll where you roll again if you roll a six. This kind of power accumulation represents power charging in the magical world and would fit well into Talisman in combat.

I recall when Games Workshop used to have a very successful game called Epic Space Marine 2nd Edition which was a tabletop game. It was a game in the Warhammer universe but you controlled armies on a grand scale such that you can use Great Gargants and Imperiator Titans. There were lots of templates such as when rolling the gargant's gutbuster weapon, you had a template you put along the gargant's path and you had to roll for deviation etc.

Anyway, there was many rules and templates for all the different types of units. At some point Games Workshop decided that all this could be simplified and replaced everything with just a roll on the dice. This became Armageddon 4th Edtion. Some liked the speeding up and fast pasteness of the revised game. Others felt that it made each piece in the army play the same and without 'flavour' Most people that voted online and in games said that 4th Edition played better - more fast paced and consistent. However, the game went from one played as much as Warhammer and Warhammer 40K to one that dropped in players by over 50% year on year. I guess that says something.

I guess also that I'm one of those that liked the 'flavour' of Epic Space Marine - that rolling the Great Gargant gutbuster weapon with it's templates was something I looked forward to every turn and which turned into a combined group dice roll and got boring in 4th Edition.

I think I'll give it one more expansion try and then take it from there. I am sure that had Relic taken the strategy from another game, it would have been much much better. I like to think it wasn't just a case of 'Timescape expansion doesn't fit into magic-based Talisman - let's implement it using Warhammer 40K instead'!








 

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Relic is not really a strategy game, it's more of a fun hang with friends random adventure game.

 

Conquest the LCG will be more of a strategy game.

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Relic is a thighter game than Talisman as far as the mechanic goes.I'm not comparing Relic to other strategy games here.But as cool as Warhammer 40k setting is, it's true that there's less flavors and places to explore in Relic's adventure deck cards than Talisman.Same goes for the board although gorgeous, looks a bit the same here and there.Talisman is the opposite.Less thighter, more diverse.Warhammer 40k is a faction's war setting.So Relic as it is, is perfect for Warhammer 40k fan and not for a space quest adventure fan who loved Talisman for it's fantasy quest adventure nature and randomness.The only thing that Relic and Talisman have in common it's the board overlays separate in three regions.But that's only my opinion.That's why I'm hoping for FFG to release a stand alone Timescape game to fulfill our need for real space quest adventuring.Talisman mechanic or not but with a board more in the like of Merchants of Venus than Talisman or Relic.We'll wait and see.

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