Opportunist and Captain Yorr

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

I think I have enough for a condensed question to FFG:

 

 

"Can a player choose to receive more than one stress token when using abilities like Elusiveness and Opportunist?

 

How would the receiving of stress tokens be mitigated with Captain Yorr's pilot ability?"

 

I've submitted this and will await a response from those that make the game so we can know how this interaction is supposed to be played out.

 

Whatever response I get I will post here.

 

P.S. thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. I found the general tone nicer than some other threads I have been on.

I would have phrased it a bit differently, but I think I *did* submit a similar question of my own, so if enough people did/do so hopefully they'll at least register it's something on people's minds.

I think I phrased it something like "Can you use an effect such as the bonus attack die from Opportunist repeatedly on the same attack, if you can use something like Captain Yorr to mitigate more than one stress?"

[macar 408]

If youhis put this much effort into writing about world hunger, the issue would have probably been fixed by now.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

How would writing about world hunger solve the rules question?  

[macar 408]

How would writing about world hunger solve the rules question?  

 

The world hunger crisis would boost economies (more people buying food)

Lets go for a stretch and say ending hunger in america would up america's standard of living, lets say more jobs become available, and more people are now working and able to save since food is cheap and readily available.

 

Lets go even farther and say with this increase in economic boom Fantasy Flight now has the ability to hire on more employees and spend money on customer service (ie forum question answers ect)

 

fantasy flight now HIRES on the amount of people and sets a system up of quick rulings and is more quick to respond to debated threads such as this.

 

Hence world hunger solves our issues. //Begin End World Hunger Campaign

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Ravncat 1,989]

So, your saying a call to action Is required, no more writing, lets march down to FFG and demand answers to obscure but interesting questions and hunger strike till we get dialogue!

Edited September 26, 2013 by Ravncat

[commuterzombie 20]

Sounds like we've all put more or less the same question to FFG then (I did this on page 1 in a vain attempt to stop this discussion going the way of the Vader one). At least with the volume of questions we should be getting a response in the next FAQ at the latest.

[macar 408]

So, your saying a call to action Is required, no more writing, lets march down to FFG and demand answers to obscure but interesting questions and hunger strike till we get dialogue!

Yes, lets boycott ffg. Of course if we did that EVERYONE ELSE that is trying to get the game would actually be able too

 

( I am completely not serious btw, in fact if you do boycott ffg I will gladly buy the minis you do not purchase ) 

 

In all seriousness I'm sure that FFG looks at the rule questions here and says "ok that's actually a good argument or question lets add it into the errata/faq

 

Having a 10 page errata isn't good for a game and it's already getting some what long

[Ken at Sunrise 2,065]

Have seen the errata for T5?

[macar 408]

yes I've heard about it, though I don't like it

[Sergovan 1,440]

So there is at least a partial answer to this multiple stress token taking. From the FAQ:

 

Q: Can a card effect be used as many times as desired when a ship has the opportunity to use it?

A: No. A card effect can be used once per opportunity. For example, the opportunity on the Luke Skywalker Ship card is “when defending,” so he can only use his ability once against each enemy attack.

 

 

So for Elusiveness and Opportunist, you would only get to take more than one stress token in one shot (ie. at the same time). You could not take 1 stress, resolve the ability, then restart it. I was expecting that to be the case.

 

But the original version of taking more than one stress token all at once isn't mentioned.

 

So can I still take 3 stress tokens at the same time (all at the same stoppage of play) if Yorr strips them off  before I get them on my ship, and use Opportunity or Elusiveness to give me more than 1 additional die or reroll?

[KineticOperator 2,534]

I don't understand how that is a grey area.  Opportunist gives you one die for one stress.  You can use it one time per opportunity, as per the FAQ.  So, one die for one stress during this attack.

 

Who/what/why the stress is given to Yorr doesn't have anything to do with the new FAQ ruling that only allows a single activation of Opportunist during this attack.

[Cerealthief 26]

Amen KO.

 People too often are reading for advantage rather than reading what is there and applying a touch of common sense

[commuterzombie 20]

I agree, the new FAQ has clarified this (and a lot of other contentious debates). You have one opportunity to use Elusiveness or Opportunist per attack, regardless of what happens to the stress token generated.

[Sergovan 1,440]

Amen KO.

People too often are reading for advantage rather than reading what is there and applying a touch of common sense

The rules for x-wing have expanded beyond a simple pick up and play style to a more rules layered system as they are heading into their 4th wave. They never set about setting up the framework of the rules and how they intend for them to interact, but rely on the cards adding in patches as they get released. Unfortunately, this leads to some patches that, when combined, don't have a clear resolution.

It was only until now that they defined a card ability as being usable only once per activation. 2 years after release. The issues that are popping up on here aren't from not reading the card but trying to understand the meaning that the designers have with the ability being introduced and how it interacts with established material. We don't have the full interaction rules clarified anywhere, and that is why cards can fall onto more than one way of being interpreted. And it is frustrating when the interaction rules aren't clear.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Sergovan

[VanorDM 11,599]

And it is frustrating when the interaction rules aren't clear.

I agree, the best thing FFG could do at this point if they want X-Wing to really have a serious competitive side, is to completely re-write the rules from the ground up.

Perferabily they'd pick a group of people that post here in the rules form to help proof read/beta test the rule set.

I'm not saying they need to change the rules, but there's so many poorly defined terms and concepts in the game right now that each new set of cards just creates more and more questions that need to be answered. At least some of that could be resolved if they'd re-write the rules and make things more clear.

I love X-Wing but I'd think a company with as much experance as FFG would be better at writing up rules that clearly define the terms and concepts that make up the game.

[Cerealthief 26]

But if there are two interpretations and one looks exploitative then the other is probably the truth!

 If one triggers an infinity loop then that is probably wrong.

 If in doubt take the conservative view
 

 This is how I view the world.

 

If you are reasonable and play reasonably you can still win tournaments... I have trophies that say im good but I have plenty of friends who want to play vs me.

 Be fun, have fun, ... and then make sounds effects!!!

[Buhallin 4,563]

I agree, the best thing FFG could do at this point if they want X-Wing to really have a serious competitive side, is to completely re-write the rules from the ground up.

 

I'm not holding my breath on this.  While I was at GenCon I got a chance to spend a few minutes chatting with one of the devs.  When I mentioned the need for a tighter, better-defined rule set I got a "Whatchu talkin' bout, Willis?!?" kind of look.  He seemed honestly baffled that I thought the rules were unclear.  When I pointed out the issues surrounding secondary weapons his response was "Well, yeah, we wanted to fix those but the required errata would be too big."  He truly didn't seem to appreciate how that related to the rest of the conversation.

 

Among my specialties as a software developer, I do interfaces and usability, and I've started to look at this problem the same way.  THEY understand what's going on under the covers, so questions like "What does immediately actually mean?" or "How many times can I activate an ability?" never occur to them.  Something that happens all the time in UI design is engineers designing interfaces that make sense to them, or to other engineers, and can't put their brains in an average user's body.  The rules are effectively our UI to the underlying game model, and they're built to their mental understanding - not ours.

 

But I think there's also a very solid argument from their point of view that the rules are fine.  The ability count is still low enough to rule by fiat, and grows slowly compared to other games - the LCGs add abilities about three times faster, by a rough count.  And it's not like the rules issues seem to actually be hurting the sales of the game - the shelf life continues to be measured in minutes.  So why put a ton of effort into fixing the underlying "interface" when your current version is doing fine?

 

I think the counterarguments to that are obvious, but that's where I think their head is.  Either way, I'd be REALLY surprised to see any sort of advanced rules any time soon.  Or ever.

[VanorDM 11,599]

So why put a ton of effort into fixing the underlying "interface" when your current version is doing fine?

"If it's not broke, don't fix it"

Yeah I get that. So far the issues haven't been that bad, and mostly it's been due to combinations and interactions that have been the issue.

I'm in IT as well so I know what you mean about the rules make sense to them, because they know what the RAI is. It's the same issue with having a program do QA... Doesn't really work.

If they can't/won't re-write the rules. It would be nice if they would at least take a page from MMO's out there and have some of the devlopers monitor the rules thread here and post clarifications and answers to the hot topic posts here.

[Parakitor 5,654]

For what it's worth, I asked about it and this is what I got:

 

"Elusiveness and Opportunist both require the stress to be received by the ship activating the ability in order to trigger its effect. Although not very useful, a ship could trigger Elusiveness when defending, Yorr could pull the stress away, but then Elusiveness’s effect wouldn’t trigger. (There is no practical use for this, but that is how it would resolve)."

 

Straight from the rules guys at FFG. Glad to finally have a solid answer. If anybody else posted an answer from FFG somewhere, I couldn't find it.

[dvorm 1,058]

For what it's worth, I asked about it and this is what I got:

 

"Elusiveness and Opportunist both require the stress to be received by the ship activating the ability in order to trigger its effect. Although not very useful, a ship could trigger Elusiveness when defending, Yorr could pull the stress away, but then Elusiveness’s effect wouldn’t trigger. (There is no practical use for this, but that is how it would resolve)."

 

Straight from the rules guys at FFG. Glad to finally have a solid answer. If anybody else posted an answer from FFG somewhere, I couldn't find it.

... Elusiveness’s effect wouldn’t trigger. If the entire effect does not trigger then there is no stress token for anyone. Not even for Yorr. Is that a time paradoxon?

 

 

That answer does not make much sense. What is Yorr supposed to be good at?

I hope FFG will reconcider that answer prior to the next FAQ.

Edited February 24, 2014 by dvor

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

 

For what it's worth, I asked about it and this is what I got:

 

"Elusiveness and Opportunist both require the stress to be received by the ship activating the ability in order to trigger its effect. Although not very useful, a ship could trigger Elusiveness when defending, Yorr could pull the stress away, but then Elusiveness’s effect wouldn’t trigger. (There is no practical use for this, but that is how it would resolve)."

 

Straight from the rules guys at FFG. Glad to finally have a solid answer. If anybody else posted an answer from FFG somewhere, I couldn't find it.

... Elusiveness’s effect wouldn’t trigger. If the entire effect does not trigger then there is no stress token for anyone. Not even for Yorr. Is that a time paradoxon?

 

 

That answer does not make much sense. What is Yorr supposed to be good at?

I hope FFG will reconcider that answer prior to the next FAQ.

They already did.

Yorr clears the stress from Elusiveness, which leaves Elusiveness ready to go again the next time it is triggered. It cannot be activated multiple times for the same attack (see Luke Skywalker's ability), but could theoretically go once on Every attack with Capt. Yorr. (Well, up to 4 times).

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

... Elusiveness’s effect wouldn’t trigger. If the entire effect does not trigger then there is no stress token for anyone. Not even for Yorr. Is that a time paradoxon?

 

That answer does not make much sense. What is Yorr supposed to be good at?

I hope FFG will reconcider that answer prior to the next FAQ.

 

The effect does trigger, but because the ship doesn't actually get the stress, you haven't paid the cost.  That is, the key seems to be "...you may receive 1 stress token..."  If Yorr takes it, you didn't receive it, so no benefit for you.

 

I'm actually surprised by this, but it's not really a huge impact.  It messes with Opportunist (which may or may not prove useful) and Elusiveness (which is pretty universally reviled) but not much else.  Yorr still works fine for Push the Limit, Daredevil, inflicted stress from Kath or criticals, K-turns, etc.

[Parakitor 5,654]

 

 

... Elusiveness’s effect wouldn’t trigger. If the entire effect does not trigger then there is no stress token for anyone. Not even for Yorr. Is that a time paradoxon?

 

That answer does not make much sense. What is Yorr supposed to be good at?

I hope FFG will reconcider that answer prior to the next FAQ.

 

The effect does trigger, but because the ship doesn't actually get the stress, you haven't paid the cost.  That is, the key seems to be "...you may receive 1 stress token..."  If Yorr takes it, you didn't receive it, so no benefit for you.

 

I'm actually surprised by this, but it's not really a huge impact.  It messes with Opportunist (which may or may not prove useful) and Elusiveness (which is pretty universally reviled) but not much else.  Yorr still works fine for Push the Limit, Daredevil, inflicted stress from Kath or criticals, K-turns, etc.

 

Good pooint. I was getting kind of down on that response, but you're right: Yorr still has plenty of uses.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

 

 

 

... Elusiveness’s effect wouldn’t trigger. If the entire effect does not trigger then there is no stress token for anyone. Not even for Yorr. Is that a time paradoxon?

 

That answer does not make much sense. What is Yorr supposed to be good at?

I hope FFG will reconcider that answer prior to the next FAQ.

 

The effect does trigger, but because the ship doesn't actually get the stress, you haven't paid the cost.  That is, the key seems to be "...you may receive 1 stress token..."  If Yorr takes it, you didn't receive it, so no benefit for you.

 

I'm actually surprised by this, but it's not really a huge impact.  It messes with Opportunist (which may or may not prove useful) and Elusiveness (which is pretty universally reviled) but not much else.  Yorr still works fine for Push the Limit, Daredevil, inflicted stress from Kath or criticals, K-turns, etc.

Good pooint. I was getting kind of down on that response, but you're right: Yorr still has plenty of uses.

The FAQ ruling is that the effect still happens, Yorr gets the stress, but you can still only use Elusiveness/Opportunist only once per trigger (a la Luke Skywalker's ability).

This means that Opportunist + Gunner alongside Yorr gives both attacks +1 die, and Elusiveness can potentially trigger for 4 different attacks in a single round.