Ion token vs the Advanced Sensors

[Sergovan 1,440]

When looking at the AS card, I can't figure out why it reads "before your reveal your maneuver" when it really seems like the word "dial" is missing. I enjoy this game immensely, but what is starting to get my goat is trigger clauses written like a story instead of a crystal clear step location. I can understand that "before Activation: Step 1" doesn't read particularly well, but it is crystal clear as a trigger clause.

 

I view trigger clauses as defining which step, the where or when, of a rule, and this one just adds more confusion due to inherent ambiguity.

 

There are many other abilities that have "before you reveal your maneuver dial" so why not use an already established clause? I don't like trying to figure out if some new rule is simply an author error, a development error, printing error, or what else. Intent is the last thing I want to try to figure out.

 

As for the original thread topic, I would rule that you could not use AS, as you can't meet its triggering condition, when ioned.

[InvestFDC 127]

Essentially, the Advanced Sensors allows you to perform your action before the move instead of after. I have read all the Doctoral level English disertations as to the for and against and I think that I will interpret this at the level that the game seems to be written and just say Advanced Sensors allows you to act then move instead of move then act. I do not want to have to consult an attorney everytime I want to Taget Lock someone....

[negroscuro 18]

There is no official solution to this topic?

Can anyone clarify me what you conclude?

The answer is no for this reason?

Q: If a ship does not have a dial assigned to

it when it activates during the Activation

phase, can it resolve any effects that refer

to its maneuver dial?

A: No. For example, a HWK-290 with an ion token

cannot use the effect of Navigator to change the

speed of its maneuver.

thank you.

Edited December 16, 2013 by negroscuro

[onebit 110]

You can derive the answer from the rules in post #10. The FAQ answer strengthens the position: No. Advanced Sensors don't work while Ionized.

Edited December 17, 2013 by onebit

[negroscuro 18]

You can derive the answer from the rules in post #10. The FAQ answer strengthens the position: No. Advanced Sensors don't work while Ionized.

Thank you!

[Shaadea 258]

I don't see where the FAQ strengthens the interpretation that AS will not work. If you refer to this FAQ entry

 

Q: If a ship does not have a dial assigned to it when it activates during the Activation phase, can it resolve any effects that refer to its maneuver dial?
A: No. For example, a HWK-290 with an ion token cannot use the effect of Navigator to change the speed of its maneuver.

 

then keep in mind that NOWHERE on the AS card it says maneuver dial!

 

 

ok, my 2c (not sure if it's even worth 2c):

Right here, at the start, I want to state: I don't want to offend anybody here; many interesting opinions were posted.

I've read through the whole discussion - yes, the whole. I haven't been in the situation myself to make a decision on this topic.

Short: I'm in the camp to allow AS.

The fluff explanation that the ship is unable to move now when ionized therefore shouldn't be able to do such thing is crap (sorry, not good), since action are not forbidden and you can boost and barrel roll or Daredevil in the same turn in which you have been ionized.

I read the "Before.. reveal" part of AS as timing indication. It tells you when to do that fancy thing, before maneuver (yes, yes, reveal). To be more exact, immediately before, so there's nothing else happening between those two.

Now I understand that ionized forces a ship to move without receiving a maneuver dial first, thus the "reveal dial" step cannot be fullfilled.

But where the hell do you people get that "dial" part from the AS card? It doesn't say so on the card! Period. Is that what is meant/intended? I don't know, as I can't read minds. I can only go by what's on the card, and dial is not on the card. So without the dial part (and I repeat, the word dial is not to be found on the card), where is a contradiction to existing rules? Without adding the dial part AS is not waiting for some mystical dial to be revealed (which will not happen in that turn, as there is none).

Instead it waits for a maneuver to be revealed. Sure almost everybody seems to read the dial into it, as this seems so far the only reveal that occurs (at least the only "reveal" that's kinda officially named as such). Well, we don't know what will come in future, so maybe the way it is written was done intentionally. I don't know.

Maybe it is a misprint. I don't know either.

Until "revealed" by FFG to be one way or the other we have to go by RaW. No dial mentioned on the card, no dial necessary! No need to have fantasy run wild and add "dial" to the text just to have it fit a certain interpretation.

 

Actually I'm not even sure if you couldn't use AS in the following way: Ten with Squad Leader hands out free action to Ibtisam with AS. Ibtisam is about to use Daredevil maneuver; get it... while I know that this is quite stretching the meaning of AS you still have the conditions met: Before Maneuver (I "reveal" the so far unknown/hidden maneuver to my opponent, nowhere in the rules is a exact definition of what a "reveal" is), spent action now before DD, don't get Action phase later.

 

 

To be honest I would love to see the ionized effect to be stronger, handing out stress or at least forbidding any kind of action in that turn. Ever ionized a Interceptor with ptl? It's close to meaningless (unless stressed from earlier turn), right after the 1 move it will boost and barrel all over the place.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

It doesn't outright say but does pretty strongly imply a dial on AdvS: "Immediately before you reveal your maneuver..."  You can't reveal a maneuver without a dial.  

 

And the rule you quote does strengthen the argument, because what it is saying is that Navigator also says "when you reveal your maneuver..."  The FAQ makes it clear that if there's no dial, there is no maneuver to reveal.  No maneuver to reveal, nothing that triggers on revealing a maneuver works.  No dropping a seismic charge, no Navigator, and, yes, sorry, no Advanced Sensors.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Your argument also doesn't hold up, because it does, in fact, pretty clearly define revealing a maneuver.  Activation phase, step 1, and I quote (emphasis mine):
"Reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup."

Translation: turning a dial face-up = revealing the maneuver.  
Further translation: no dial to turn face-up = no maneuver is revealed.

Further further translation: no maneuver is revealed = nothing triggered by "before/after you reveal a maneuver" is allowed to trigger.

 

Also, keep in mind that FAQ entry specifies "ANY effects" that refer to its maneuver dial.  ANY.  This includes Advanced Sensors - the HWK used in the example can't currently equip Advanced Sensors, but they simply picked HWK + Navigator + Ion as one example of this interaction.
 

Edited December 17, 2013 by CrookedWookie

[VanorDM 11,599]

No dropping a seismic charge, no Navigator, and, yes, sorry, no Advanced Sensors.

Wasn't there something in the FAQ about Seismic Charges? I swear I saw something but can't find it now.

[Usarina 0]

So my first post and I'll jump right in at the deep end...

 

The argument is really about whether 'before revealing your maneuver dial' is simply a matter of timing, or is a condition of being able to do something.

 

If it's just saying 'do it (take an action) at this point in the sequence', then the fact you can't do the thing it's refering to (reveal a maneuver dial) doesn't matter. Before you would normally do that (reveal a maneuver dial), do this (take an action) and then carry on as normal.

 

Or it's saying...do this now (take an action), unless you can't do that (reveal a maneuver dial), in which case you can't do this (take an action) either.

 

I don't have enough experience with the game to draw a conclusion, but based on other games it would seem a stretch to assume it's a conditional in the absence of anything specific to that effect.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

 

No dropping a seismic charge, no Navigator, and, yes, sorry, no Advanced Sensors.

Wasn't there something in the FAQ about Seismic Charges? I swear I saw something but can't find it now.

 

I could have sworn there was as well - I know that was answered someplace - but am having trouble finding it myself.  I'll keep digging.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

So my first post and I'll jump right in at the deep end...

 

The argument is really about whether 'before revealing your maneuver dial' is simply a matter of timing, or is a condition of being able to do something.

 

If it's just saying 'do it (take an action) at this point in the sequence', then the fact you can't do the thing it's refering to (reveal a maneuver dial) doesn't matter. Before you would normally do that (reveal a maneuver dial), do this (take an action) and then carry on as normal.

 

Or it's saying...do this now (take an action), unless you can't do that (reveal a maneuver dial), in which case you can't do this (take an action) either.

 

I don't have enough experience with the game to draw a conclusion, but based on other games it would seem a stretch to assume it's a conditional in the absence of anything specific to that effect.

The FAQ is pretty clear and firm in stating (via question) that "If a ship does not have a dial assigned to it when it activates...can it resolve any effects that refer to its maneuver dial?"

Answer:  No.

 

That's about as unequivocal as it gets.  Advanced Sensors is by every definition of the term "an effect that refers to [a] maneuver dial."

[Usarina 0]

I agree with that...so why are there 7 pages of debate about this?

 

Unfortunately that means that it is a conditional, which opens up all the cans of worms in the Galaxy.

 

 

That's about as unequivocal as it gets.  Advanced Sensors is by every definition of the term "an effect that refers to [a] maneuver dial."

Edited December 17, 2013 by Usarina

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

 

Ion only affects movement and specifically states it does not interfere with actions.

 

I think we have to be careful - The ion token card says "... After executing this maneuver, remove all ion tokens from the ship. It may perform actions as normal."

 

The wording suggests that it we treat actions performed after the maneuver as normal. Advanced sensors is telling us to skip the take action step (which happens after the maneuver).  The ion token card acknowledges the standard activation phase order of events.

 

I do not believe we can use the wording of the ion token card to protect the free action granted to us before our maneuver.  Additionally, the advanced sensors card has to be triggered to be used, the condition of that use is dependant upon the dial being revealed. In this sense, it's not the ion token rules that have prevented us from using advanced sensors, it's the advanced sensor card itself.

 

I agree with Ravn, and I think he brings up an important point.  The ion token says "Remove all ion tokens from the ship.  It may perform actions as normal."  There are TWO very important things to glean from this.

1.  Advanced Sensors is an exception to the normal rules of performing actions, not 'as normal,' and more importantly,

2.  Look at the order the Ion token card instructs you to follow.  Planning: don't assign a dial to the ship.  Activation: move the ship 'as if' it had a white 1-straight assigned to it.  AFTER completing the maneuver, remove all ion tokens from the ship, it may now perform actions as normal.  

 

Reading this, you can't perform an action until after the ion tokens are removed.  You can't remove the ion tokens until after the ship executes the 1-straight maneuver.  Ergo, you can't use advanced sensors because you can't perform actions 'as normal' until the ion tokens are removed from the ship...which happens after it moves.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Or it's saying...do this now (take an action), unless you can't do that (reveal a maneuver dial), in which case you can't do this (take an action) either.

This is how I understand it to work. If you can't reveal your maneuver dial, you can't take any action that involves revealing it. I thought there was a ruling involving S. Charges and Ions, but I can't find it now.

Adv. Sensors mentions revealing your maneuver. As I understand it, if you're hit with the Ion effect you don't ever reveal a maneuver, so adv sensors wouldn't work.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

You're bang on, Vanor.  As quoted above, the ruling states about as firmly as anything in the game that NO effects involving the revealing of a maneuver can be triggered when you have an ion token.  No seismic, no AdvS, no Navigator, nada.  No.  None.  

 

And as I also pointed out, following the rules as written on the ion token, the instructions have a pretty clear sequence you have to follow in order to clear the ion.  Move 1 straight - Remove Ion tokens - Perform actions as normal.  The order there is important, because you can't perform the action until the Ion tokens are removed, and you can't remove the ion tokens until after executing the 1-straight.  

That leaves absolutely nowhere in there for Advanced Sensors to take effect, especially since the FAQ makes it clear that it cannot resolve any effects that refer to its maneuver dial.  

 

Advanced Sensors: Immediately before you reveal your maneuver.

 

Page 7, Activation Phase, step 1: Reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it face up.

 

​Does advanced sensors SAY "dial" anywhere?  No.  But you're being disingenuous if you try and claim that we have any other definition for revealing a maneuver anywhere in the rules.  No dial, no reveal.

[dbmeboy 807]

Reading this, you can't perform an action until after the ion tokens are removed. You can't remove the ion tokens until after the ship executes the 1-straight maneuver. Ergo, you can't use advanced sensors because you can't perform actions 'as normal' until the ion tokens are removed from the ship...which happens after it moves.

While the conclusion is correct (no advanced sensors with an ion token), this line of reason is not correct. Ion tokens do not stop actions, though most of the time you wouldn't notice the difference. A ship with an ion token may still receive a free action from something like squad leader or any other source.

Edited December 17, 2013 by dbmeboy

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Fair enough.

[Shaadea 258]

So everybody agrees that "reveal a maneuver" is equal to "reveal the maneuver dial". Of course that might solves the whole issue (especially in conjunction with the FAQ). Still it's not written that way, and the other instances where "reveal maneuver" are used there's always the dial mentioned - as in the example of the navigator that NEEDS the dial as it is going to change it! That was not a perfect example since the effect of the Navigator relies on the dial, it cannot work without the dial since the dial is in fact the target of the effect. Same goes for Boba Fett. But then the FAQ says "that refers to the dial" and with "reveal" = "reveal dial" there's the reference needed for the ion to block AS.

I'm not sold on the whole explanation for the action not working due to the ion card ruling regarding when you are performing actions, but that's not necessary (anymore) for this debate

 

@CrookedWookie:

"Reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup."

Thanks for that quote as it proves my point just as much as yours. It says "Reveal Dial (NOT Maneuver):" and goes on talking about the maneuver dial. ALWAYS dial, never maneuver alone! It could have been"Reveal Maneuver: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup." wouldn't that be nice... all those "Reveal Maneuver" stuff we have now and that will come in the future would be crystal clear.

Your "translates into" stuff is your personal way to read it, not the way it's written.

 

Still even that's not necessary anymore to solve the question here if everybody agrees on "Reveal Maneuver" = "Reveal maneuver dial", case solved then.

 

As I stated in my first post, I like it that way and not allow AS, but unless I agree with that "reveal" interpretation the way it's written leaves it open.

[Buhallin 4,563]

So then what is the difference between "revealing a dial" and "revealing a maneuver"?  Is there any example in the game where this difference in terminology has any impact at all, much less one which is supported by other rulings?  What does "revealing a maneuver" even mean if there's no dial involved?

 

Edit: Worth noting that the term "reveal" does not appear in the ion token rules at all.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Buhallin

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

"I am doing a white 1-turn!"

You have to reveal your maneuver.

"I just did - a 1-turn!"

No, you have to show me your dial.

"Dial? Where does it say dial? I'm going to simply 'reveal' it verbally."

Wait, your dial doesn't even HAVE a 1-turn!

"...I guess you'll never know."

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Page 7, movement example:
"1. The Rebel player flips his dial to reveal his chosen maneuver: [ 1]."

Boy, that sure seems to pretty clearly equate 'flipping the dial' with 'revealing the maneuver,' eh?

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

So then what is the difference between "revealing a dial" and "revealing a maneuver"?  Is there any example in the game where this difference in terminology has any impact at all, much less one which is supported by other rulings?  What does "revealing a maneuver" even mean if there's no dial involved?

 

Edit: Worth noting that the term "reveal" does not appear in the ion token rules at all.

And to answer your question more seriously, "No - there is no example in the rulebook, at least, where reveal a maneuver and reveal a maneuver dial are not used interchangeably."  I did a search for each and every use of any variation of 'reveal,' which is where I found the movement example on page 7 which in fact pretty explicitly words it in such a way that flipping your dial is 'reveal[ing your] chosen maneuver."

[Shaadea 258]

Page 7, movement example:

"1. The Rebel player flips his dial to reveal his chosen maneuver: [ 1]."

Boy, that sure seems to pretty clearly equate 'flipping the dial' with 'revealing the maneuver,' eh?

 

Yes it does, thank you very much (seriously).

 

Still, could be worded better first hand (not something to be found in an example), but other than in tournaments (where sometimes a very special kind of players show up) such things never cause a problem.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

No problem (seriously).     I literally just discovered myself - and I agree with you; this is not actually the first time when an important rule was kind of thrown out there offhandedly in an example in the rulebook, more clearly than it actually was anywhere in the rules it's explained or referenced.      Or other times, where the examples shown have been in direct contradiction to the rules as written...  God love 'ye, FFG.